If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?

[Dan O'meara]

The bottom line is this - Adams is insistent that the message she hears on the police motorcycle radio references shots coming from the second floor:

"There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused-there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor.
Mr. BELIN - Did they say second floor or second floor from the top?
Miss ADAMS - It said second floor. So then I decided maybe I had better go back into the building, and going up the stairs---"

This seems like an unusual mistake for anyone to make. The shots came from the 6th floor, how can anyone make such an enormous mistake as to say the shooter was on the 2nd. Even months after the event in her WC testimony, knowing where the shots came from, Adams is still insistent she heard a message referencing a shooter on the second floor.
When we look at the transcripts of the Dallas Police Tapes we find the same, mistaken claim:

"We have a man here who says he saw him pull the weapon back through the window off of the second floor from the southeast corner of that depository building"

This message is surely the one Adams is referencing. It takes place at 12:37. I've heard elsewhere claims that these dispatch times are not wholly accurate which may be the case but it seems to me there is an independent way to check this. The shooting happens at 12:30 and this is totally reflected in the transcripts of the Dallas Police tapes. So we can say with a certain amount of confidence the message Adams hears that causes her to head back into the TSBD takes place at 12:37.
If we accept their testimonies, it is hard to imagine Shelley and Lovelady being in a position to encounter Adams and Styles coming down the stairs (something Shelley doesn't acknowledge happening) any earlier than 12:35

Until someone can construct a realistic timeline in which Adams talks briefly to Shelley, races out the back door, down the Houston St dock stairs, makes her way to the very back of the TSBD, takes a right and encounters a police officer she has a conversation with, makes her way along the west side of the building, walks back up the dead-end street towards the front entrance of the TSBD and has a conversation with colleagues after which she hears the radio message and does all this in two minutes (120 seconds)...
...what's the point, it's not going to happen. A realistic timeline has already been proposed and, as Shelley himself points out in his WC testimony, the encounter with Adams and Shelley on the first floor did not take place. Propose an alternative timeline or enter into a dialogue about the arguments being made for the proposed timeline.

[Charles Collins]

The bottom line is this - Adams is insistent that the message she hears on the police motorcycle radio references shots coming from the second floor:

"There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused-there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor.
Mr. BELIN - Did they say second floor or second floor from the top?
Miss ADAMS - It said second floor. So then I decided maybe I had better go back into the building, and going up the stairs---"

This seems like an unusual mistake for anyone to make. The shots came from the 6th floor, how can anyone make such an enormous mistake as to say the shooter was on the 2nd. Even months after the event in her WC testimony, knowing where the shots came from, Adams is still insistent she heard a message referencing a shooter on the second floor.
When we look at the transcripts of the Dallas Police Tapes we find the same, mistaken claim:

"We have a man here who says he saw him pull the weapon back through the window off of the second floor from the southeast corner of that depository building"

This message is surely the one Adams is referencing. It takes place at 12:37. I've heard elsewhere claims that these dispatch times are not wholly accurate which may be the case but it seems to me there is an independent way to check this. The shooting happens at 12:30 and this is totally reflected in the transcripts of the Dallas Police tapes. So we can say with a certain amount of confidence the message Adams hears that causes her to head back into the TSBD takes place at 12:37.
If we accept their testimonies, it is hard to imagine Shelley and Lovelady being in a position to encounter Adams and Styles coming down the stairs (something Shelley doesn't acknowledge happening) any earlier than 12:35

Until someone can construct a realistic timeline in which Adams talks briefly to Shelley, races out the back door, down the Houston St dock stairs, makes her way to the very back of the TSBD, takes a right and encounters a police officer she has a conversation with, makes her way along the west side of the building, walks back up the dead-end street towards the front entrance of the TSBD and has a conversation with colleagues after which she hears the radio message and does all this in two minutes (120 seconds)...
...what's the point, it's not going to happen. A realistic timeline has already been proposed and, as Shelley himself points out in his WC testimony, the encounter with Adams and Shelley on the first floor did not take place. Propose an alternative timeline or enter into a dialogue about the arguments being made for the proposed timeline.

This seems like an unusual mistake for anyone to make. The shots came from the 6th floor, how can anyone make such an enormous mistake as to say the shooter was on the 2nd.

The sixth floor is the second floor (from the top of the building). Maybe the last part of the description, in parenthesis, got lost somewhere in the transfer of information between the witness, officer on the scene, & dispatcher? Just a thought...

[John Iacoletti]

I like that you're not questioning whether they're lying or not but whether they're lying deliberately, as if there was another way of lying.

It would have to be deliberate (and false) in order for it to be a lie. Something isn’t a lie just because you believe something different happened. You’re making a lot of assumptions based on this claimed identification of Calvery in a blurry film clip a couple of seconds long.

This alone makes me suspicious - one man forgets all this, maybe. But both? Hours after the event?
In their affidavits both men give the impression that very shortly after the shots they head straight back into the TSBD through the front entrance. They are deliberately distancing themselves from the side-door on the west side, it is a co-ordinated and concerted effort by both men.

They would have no reason on November 22 to think that such a detail about where they went, how long it took, and what door they came back in had any relevance to the assassination whatsoever. In fact, I don’t even understand why you think them going in the side door was relevant enough for them to deliberately conceal it on Nov 22.

Obviously you state that you favour the affidavits over the WC testimony so you don't believe any of this down towards the railroad yard/watching the police/going in the side-door happened anyway.

Why would I think it didn’t happen? Just because they left out some details? I’m just wondering why you’re using a dubious identification of Calvery to claim that Lovelady and Shelley deliberately lied about how long they were on the steps.

"Far more amazing than this is the lie they both construct for their WC testimony, again both men lying in exactly the same way although this time its a different type of lie. If you respond to this post John, and I doubt you will, I would like to hear from you, or from anyone on this forum, the reason you think both men deliberately and knowingly insist Gloria Calvery took 3 to 4 minutes to make her way to them even though she was running and even though someone mooching along at a leisurely, Oswald-like 3 mph can cover 132 ft in 30 seconds."

IF they were wrong about how much time passed (and you don’t know that they were), it could simply mean that they misjudged the time. Time appears to slow down for people during traumatic events. That doesn’t mean they deliberately lied about it. But they’re not wrong just because you believe that a black-blob on the steps is Gloria Calvery. You’re assuming that they were lying about this without even a plausible reason for doing so.

The point you are missing is this - both men are saying it took Truly and Baker at least 3 minutes to reach the steps of the TSBD!!
We know for a fact that is a lie.

So this really has nothing to do with Calvery then. Maybe she took three minutes. You don’t know when she started running or that she ran the whole time. She was a large woman. Maybe they confused the order of events. Maybe they misjudged the time. That doesn’t make any of it a deliberate lie.

This is semantics gone mad. A completely irrelevant detail blown up out of all proportion demonstrating an overwhelming inability to bring anything serious to the table. Not that it matters but I'll walk you through how you are getting even this bit of trivia wrong.
Ball is asking Lovelady "whom you left the steps with". The 'you' in this question obviously refers to Lovelady. Ball is asking who Lovelady was with when he left the steps to which he answers 'Mr Shelley'. The only person who needs to be on the steps here is Lovelady, that is how English works.

You have to be on the steps in order to “leave the steps”, right? You think you know what happened better than Lovelady just because of a film clip that you can’t even demonstrate for a fact who is who in?

I've put an excellent argument forward to identify Calvery in the L/G Gif.

There’s nothing “excellent” about it. It’s all handwaving Tommy Graves nonsense that ignores several pieces of evidence, like Shelley’s affidavit and Westbrook’s interview which contradict it.

If you want to argue the points I've made in a serious way I'm all for it but if you want to carry on with this nit-picking childishness I won't be bothering.

As you wish, but “because I said so” arguments will only carry you so far.

I'm hear to learn and be challenged and to try and move forward somehow. I'm not hear to bicker with someone with an entrenched mentality who has already decided they are the chosen one with all the answers. If anyone really knew what was going on none of us would be here.

Says the guy who thinks he has it all figured out because of his “excellent” Calvary argument.

[Tim Nickerson]

I am not assuming that Shelley and Lovelady are lying, I am merely pointing out the fact that they are both lying. They both 'lie by omission' when they leave out going towards the railroad yard, walking up the dead-end street, waiting by the spur track, watching all the police activity, walking through the car park on the west side of the TSBD and entering through the side door of the shipping room. These actions form the majority of their account from the time of the last shot to the time they enter the TSBD and both men deliberately leave it out. What's going on at this side door that's so important?

Being wrong or leaving out details of something you did or experienced months prior is not necessarily lying. Just about every witness that day recounted something incorrectly. That doesn't mean that everyone of them were liars. Your quickness to label Shelley and Lovelady as liars is a poor reflection on yourself.

[Tim Nickerson]

Any discussion on Oswald's escape should take into account Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig's report that about 15 minutes after the assassination he saw Oswald run from the rear of the TSBD and get into a Rambler station wagon driven by a man with a dark complexion. In spite of Craig's sterling record as a police officer, WC apologists have rejected Craig's account because it destroys the WC's version of Oswald's movements after the shooting. There is good evidence that supports Craig's account, as Dr. Michael Kurtz explains:

How does Roger Craig's report fit with Oswald being on McWatter's bus within 10 minutes after the shooting? Mrs Bledsoe testified that she saw Oswald on McWatter's bus and the transfer found in his shirt pocket leaves no doubt that he was on that bus.

[John Iacoletti]

When we look at the transcripts of the Dallas Police Tapes we find the same, mistaken claim:

"We have a man here who says he saw him pull the weapon back through the window off of the second floor from the southeast corner of that depository building"

This message is surely the one Adams is referencing. It takes place at 12:37.

But this message says nothing about the 4th floor, and Adams specifically mentioned panicking because she thought her window was the only open one on the 4th floor.

Also, as I mentioned previously and it was ignored, the 12:37 broadcast about the second floor was on channel 2, but that was reserved for motorcade traffic, and they went to Parkland.

I've heard elsewhere claims that these dispatch times are not wholly accurate which may be the case but it seems to me there is an independent way to check this. The shooting happens at 12:30 and this is totally reflected in the transcripts of the Dallas Police tapes.

There’s no reference on the police tapes of the shooting happening at 12:30 on the channel 2 dispatcher’s clock.

[Dan O'meara]

But this message says nothing about the 4th floor, and Adams specifically mentioned panicking because she thought her window was the only open one on the 4th floor.

Also, as I mentioned previously and it was ignored, the 12:37 broadcast about the second floor was on channel 2, but that was reserved for motorcade traffic, and they went to Parkland.

There’s no reference on the police tapes of the shooting happening at 12:30 on the channel 2 dispatcher’s clock.

1)You're absolutely correct, there is no mention of any activity on the 4th floor and Adams states that "shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second
   floor or the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor." My point was that the report of a shooter in the 2nd floor window
   seemed really unusual. Most other reports were about the 5th or 6th floors. I was struck that when Adams was asked to clarify whether she misheard the report or not she
   was insistent it was about the 2nd floor. I then found it remarkably coincidental that a report was sent out over the radio containing the same unusual piece of information - a
   possible shooter on the second floor. It also fit the timeline of Adams hearing the report then trying to get back inside and having to talk her way past an officer, so the process
   of locking down the TSBD had begun but hadn't reached the point where they were refusing to let anyone back in. As you say, the lack of mention of the fourth floor is an
   issue but, for me at least, it doesn't negate how interesting I find the coincidence of Adams testimony concerning a sighting on the second floor and there being a record of
   such an unusual report.

2) I don't know about the point concerning Channel 2. In the transcripts of the Dallas Police tapes channel 2 is represented but it has lots of radio traffic concerning the TSBD,
    I'm assuming from officers who were part of the motorcade detail (ie; Harkness) but like I say I'm not up to speed on that.

3) Nowhere do I say there's a reference to the shooting happening at 12:30 on the channel 2 dispatcher's clock. It's like you've invented an allegation that I'm supposed to
    refute (and it's not the first time you've done that). The last message on channel 2 before 12:30 is "Approaching Triple Underpass". The first message on channel 2 after
    12:30 is "Go to the hospital - Parkland Hospital. Have them stand by". I didn't say there was a reference to the shooting, I said the shooting was reflected in the transcripts
    and it clearly is.

[John Iacoletti]

You said “The shooting happens at 12:30 and this is totally reflected in the transcripts of the Dallas Police tapes“, but it’s not reflected in the tapes when the shooting happened. For one thing, the dictabelts were sound activated and not continuous. For another, the last dispatcher time check before “approaching triple underpass” is 12:28, and “approaching triple underpass” is sufficiently vague to not know how far away Curry was when he said that. And Curry was ahead of the limo too. Then there is a 12:30 time check, then “go to the hospital”, then not another time check until 12:35. Per Bowles, the time checks can be rounded up or down from the actual dispatcher’s clock, and we don’t know how accurate the dispatcher clocks were to begin with. So no, a shooting time of 12:30 is not reflected in the tapes. Nor do we even know from any other source that 12:30 was the shooting time. At best we have a McIntyre photo that shows 12:30 on the Hertz clock with the limo coming out from the underpass on the other side, but we also don’t know how or when the Hertz clock was calibrated. So all of this combines to a conclusion that you can’t rely on the 12:37 time check for any precision surrounding when Adams heard something about the 2nd or 4th floor.