If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?

[Dan O'meara]

I posted the following Gif in Reply #739. It's based on the work of Sandy Larsen and Tommy Graves and their identification of Gloria Calvery http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/25790-the-identification-of-gloria-calvery-in-zapruder-and-darnell/



It shows the moment Calvery tells Lovelady (on the steps) about the assassination. It is my belief the man in the baggy black suit at the bottom of the steps is Bill Shelley. Larsen and Graves put forward a compelling case for the identification of Calvery and, if accepted, we can state the following:
Shelley and Lovelady lie in both their affidavits and WC testimony.
Calvery, Shelley and Lovelady are at the steps at the same time Baker races past Truly (it seems to me that Shelley is looking directly at Baker as he approaches).

When they get their stories straight for the WC Shelley and Lovelady state that Calvery doesn't reach them for 3 or 4 minutes. The Gif shows this is a lie as does the fact Lovelady states Calvery comes running up and she only has about 100ft to travel, easily bringing her to the steps at the same time as Baker.
Shelley and Lovelady state they make their way to "the little, old island" (both use this exact phrase) in front of the TSBD. I believe they are here for 3 or 4 minutes for the following reason - after leaving the island they "walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while". This would have them at the west corner of the TSBD by the spur track, exactly the same place Adams and Styles walk by after their conversation with the police officer who won't let them pass. As they never meet I'm assuming Adams and Styles have already passed this position by the time Shelley and Lovelady get there.
From Sandra Styles' FBI 302 provided by John Iacoletti (reply #725) it appears Styles goes straight into the building and uses the passenger elevator to get back to her office. Adams stays outside, chatting to colleagues, at some point she hears the messge on the police motorcycle radio and has to talk her way past a police officer to get in the building. Once inside she tries the passenger elevator but it doesn't work so she walks up to the second floor. That she is free to use the elevator is possibly important in the timeline of Shelley.
After a short while by the spur track Shelley and Lovelady enter the TSBD through a side door at the west end of the building. At some point, as Shelley states, "Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway." He says elevator, singular, he says exactly the same thing in his affidavit, which implies the passenger elevator. If it is the case he is guarding the passenger elevator then this must be after Adams has tried to use it, found the power was off, then used the stairs.

Provisional Timeline

12:30                      Final shot

12:30.30 - 12:31     Calvery arrives running to the TSBD steps, tells Shelley and Lovelady about the assassination.
                              Baker races past Truly and into the building followed by Truly.
                              Adams and Styles hit the stairs and race out of the Back door
                              Baker/Truly reach freight elevators then begin running up stairs

12:31 - 12:32          Shelley/Lovelady go across to "little,old island"
                              Baker/Truly lunchroom encounter (?)
                              Adams/Styles encounter with police officer at the spur track

12:32 - 12:34          Adams/Styles round the front west corner of TSBD
                              Shelley/Lovelady make their way to the same corner

12:34 - 12:36          Styles makes her way inside, no officer on the door, takes the elevator
                              Adams chats with colleagues out front
                              Shelley/Lovelady enter side door
12:36 - 12:38          Adams hears radio message and tries to get back in but has to talk her way past a police officer. She tries elevator then uses stairs
                              Shelley/Lovelady enter first floor
                              At some point shortly after this Shelley is told to guard the elevators and stairway.

Remember - it's only provisional.

[John Iacoletti]

It shows the moment Calvery tells Lovelady (on the steps) about the assassination. It is my belief the man in the baggy black suit at the bottom of the steps is Bill Shelley. Sanders and Graves put forward a compelling case for the identification of Calvery and, if accepted,

It’s not even the slightest bit compelling. There’s no good reason to think that this is Calvery.

[Dan O'meara]

We know from Altgens 6 exactly where Lovelady is stood when the shooting starts and we know from his WC testimony he is still stood there when Calvary "came running up".

Mr. BALL - Did you stay on the steps
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Were you there when the President's motorcade went by
Mr. LOVELADY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Did you hear anything?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr. BALL - What did you hear?
Mr. LOVELADY - I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.
Mr. BALL - Who was this girl?
Mr. LOVELADY - Gloria Calvary.

Lovelady goes on to state that Bill Shelley is stood nearby and that Gloria was very close to the shooting when it happened. He also makes it clear that after hearing Calvary's account he and Shelley leave the steps:

Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah.
Mr. BALL - When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.
Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley.

In the Gif I posted Baker is running past Truly so we can time it approximately 20 to 30 seconds after the final shot. In it we see a white male with a receding hairline stood in exactly the spot Lovelady was photographed in Altgens 6, a photo taken seconds before the final shot. We know from the WC testimonies of both Lovelady and Shelley they didn't leave the steps until after Calvary had come running up to them. In the Gif the woman who appears to be talking to Lovelady is wearing a black headscarf, a black top and what appears to be a lighter coloured skirt. She is linking arms with a woman who is all in white - scarf, top and skirt. If this is Calvary telling Lovelady about the assassination then two things must be true:

1) She must have "been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit"

2) She was close enough to the TSBD so that she could run back and reach the steps before Baker got there

The Zapruder footage reveals that two women, dressed very similarly to those in the Gif are stood in a position that can be considered 'right close' to the assaination. Close enough to 'see the blood'.



Where they are stood is approximately 100-120 ft away from the TSBD steps, easily close enough to run back to the steps before Baker reaches them.

We know Loveladys' position on the steps when the shooting occurs
We know he doesn't leave that position until after Gloria Calvary comes running up
We know Gloria Calvary was very close to where the assassination occurred
We know she ran back to the TSBD
We know the two women in the Gif are dressed very similarly to two women in the Zfilm 'right close' to the assassination
We know Bill Shelley is stood nearby

And you don't find this even slightly compelling. Not even slightly.

[Jack Nessan]

It is not this complicated. Every witness time estimate prior to 12:36 is a guesstimate.

12:36 is the referenced time that the Police sealed the TSBD. After leaving the TSBD and walking near the tracks by the loading dock behind the TSBD, Styles and Adams are told to return to the building.

Prior to the encounter with the police officer telling them to return to the building at 12:36, as they are walking through the TSBD on their way to the Houston Street exit, Styles and Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady near the elevator.

12:37 is also a known time. Adams is listening to officer JJ Hill on the Police Radio while standing in front of the TSBD. Adams is then given permission to re enter the building. The front door was also closed to in and out traffic at 12:37.

The only conclusion that can be drawn is Adams and Styles never left the fourth floor as quickly as they thought they did or they took way more time than estimated to walk through the building. The actual encounters and time frames suggest they left several minutes after the shots were fired.

[Martin Weidmann]

It is not this complicated. Every witness time estimate prior to 12:36 is a guesstimate.

12:36 is the referenced time that the Police sealed the TSBD. After leaving the TSBD and walking near the tracks by the loading dock behind the TSBD, Styles and Adams are told to return to the building.

Prior to the encounter with the police officer telling them to return to the building at 12:36, as they are walking through the TSBD on their way to the Houston Street exit, Styles and Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady near the elevator.

12:37 is also a known time. Adams is listening to officer JJ Hill on the Police Radio while standing in front of the TSBD. Adams is then given permission to re enter the building. The front door was also closed to in and out traffic at 12:37.

The only conclusion that can be drawn is Adams and Styles never left the fourth floor as quickly as they thought they did or they took way more time than estimated to walk through the building. The actual encounters and time frames suggest they left several minutes after the shots were fired.

It is not this complicated.

It seems to be way too complicated for you

Every witness time estimate prior to 12:36 is a guesstimate.

That would be true if any of the witnesses actually gave a time estimate. They didn't! Victoria Adams told the FBI on 11/24/63 that she and Styles went down the stairs immediately after the last shot. She said the same thing again to Jim Leavelle on 02/07/64, again to the FBI on 03/23/64 and she repeated it again in her testimony. Dorothy Garner told Barefoot Sanders that the girls went down before Truly and Baker came up. And Sandra Styles told the FBI on 03/19/64 she and Adams left "at that time" after hearing the shots and seeing people running. That's the first flaw in your theory.

12:36 is the referenced time that the Police sealed the TSBD. After leaving the TSBD and walking near the tracks by the loading dock behind the TSBD, Styles and Adams are told to return to the building. 

There is no reference anywhere to a police man telling Adams and Styles "behind the TSBD" to go back into the building. It didn't happen, because if it had happened they wouldn't have been allowed to continue walking west (which they did) and would have simply turned around and entered the building via the loading dock. Also, by 12.36 there were already police officers and media in the building and running up the stairs. Adams and Styles encountered nobody as they came down the stairs. That's the second flaw in your theory.

The girls did not encounter the police man until they cleared the north west corner of the building. Being at that location allowed them to return to the building by walking around the west side of building and the warehouse extension, towards Elm street, turn left and walk along the parallel road in front of the TSBD towards the front entrance. There is no way in the world that the women could have covered that distance in only one or two minutes to hear the radio broadcast. That's the third flaw in your time line.

Prior to the encounter with the police officer telling them to return to the building at 12:36, as they are walking through the TSBD on their way to the Houston Street exit, Styles and Adams saw Shelley and Lovelady near the elevator.

Adams and Styles did not walk through the TSBD on their way out. They came down the stairs in the North West corner of the building, turned left and stepped onto the loading dock. Read Adams' testimony! Also, Shelley and Lovelady re-entered the building through one of the loading doors at the west side of the building and they did so approx 5 or 6 minutes after the shots. For Adams and Styles to have seen them, as they were going out, means that the girls did not leave the building any sooner than 12.35 or 12.36. That simpy does not match with the known time line combining all the available evidence.

12:37 is also a known time. Adams is listening to officer JJ Hill on the Police Radio while standing in front of the TSBD. Adams is then given permission to re enter the building. The front door was also closed to in and out traffic at 12:37.

Actually, it isn't a know time. The time stamps on the DPD radio could be off by as much as 2 minutes, according to J.C. Bowles, the supervisor for the DPD dispatchers. Again, Adams (and Styles) could not have been at the front entrance of the TSBD to hear the radio call, at 12.36 or 12.37, if she only left the building at the back one or two minutes earlier. There is no way they could have walked around the building in less than 2 minutes. That's the fourth flaw in your time line

The only conclusion that can be drawn is Adams and Styles never left the fourth floor as quickly as they thought they did or they took way more time than estimated to walk through the building. The actual encounters and time frames suggest they left several minutes after the shots were fired.

Your "conclusion" is all over the place. Not only does it not account for all the known information, but it also means - if your conclusion were true - that Adams, Styles and Garner all must have lied to the investigators over and over again, for no apparent reason.

It is beyond me how you can say that "actual encounters and time frames suggest they left several minutes after the shots" when you apparently don't even know that the girls never walked through the building, at least not on the first floor! But more importantly, you have failed completely to explain how the "information" you have offered in this post even justifies the conclusion that the girls left the 4th floor "several minutes after the shots"

[Dan O'meara]

Wow. Construct a timeline that demonstrates the reference to Shelley and Lovelady must be a fabrication then have it refuted by using the fabricated reference as a starting point. Welcome to the pantomime debate - "Oh yes it is, oh no it isn't..."
Shelley and Lovelady lie in their affidavits and their WC testimonies. In their affidavits taken on the day of the assassination both men commit exactly the same 'lie of omission'. They both neglect to mention the same part of their later WC testimonies - their walk towards the railroad yard and their subsequent entry into the TSBD via "the side door into the shipping room".
Shelley's affidavit can be broken down as follows up to the point where he enters the TSBD after the shooting:
1) Standing on the front steps of the TSBD
2) Heard 3 shots
3) Ran across the street
4) Met Gloria Calvery who told him about assassination (we know from Larsen/Graves Gif this is a lie)
5) Straight back into TSBD

Lovelady's affidavit is a marvel of vagueness:
1) Stood with Bill Shelley on steps of TSBD
2) Heard 3 shots
3) "After it was over we went back into the building"

Wandering down towards the railroad yard, watching all the activity then entering the TSBD through the side door is a significant part of their later testimonies. Both men deliberately omit this part of their testimony from their story taken down on the day of the assassination. Why do they want to hide that they were at the side door of the shipping room on the west side of the building?
Months later, in their WC testimonies the 'side door' issue seems to be resolved but once again both men lie in exactly the same way. This time it's not a 'lie of omission' but a specific lie that attempts to distort the time that Baker and Truly enter the TSBD.

Mr. BALL - Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.
Mr. BALL - She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Here Shelley is saying that he saw Truly and Baker going into the TSBD 3 or 4 minutes after the shooting. He knows it was this long because of how long it took Gloria Calvery to get from her position near the assassination (in reality Calvery was at the steps before Baker got there). He also reveals his lie in the affidavit by stating he was stood at the  door (of the TSBD) when Calvery ran up, he didn't meet her across the street.
Lovelady tells exactly the same lie in his testimony:

Mr. BALL - You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr. LOVELADY - Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Mr. BALL - Three minutes is a long time.
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes, it's---I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.
Mr. BALL - Had people started to run?
Mr. LOVELADY - Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.
Mr. BALL - Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Did you run or walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Medium trotting or fast walk.
Mr. BALL - A fast walk?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building?
Mr. LOVELADY - Somebody hollered and I looked.

It is exactly the same lie - Calvery takes about three minutes to run about 100 ft, after she tells him about the assassination Lovelady and Shelley leave the steps, then he notices Truly and Baker. We know from Couch and Darnell this is a lie.
Two different types of lie told at two different times for two different purposes by the same men. This is not a matter of speculation. What is not certain is purpose of each individual lie

[John Iacoletti]

Mr. BALL - Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?
Mr. LOVELADY - Yeah.

If they left the steps together, then why are the guy you think is Lovelady and the guy you think is Shelley not both on the steps?

Apart from that, here are some other problems with your “compelling case”:

- Shelley said he ran into Calvery across the street
- We don’t know what Calvery was wearing that day
- Karen Westbrook, who was standing with Calvery, places them both farther down Elm.
- Nobody who described Calvery running up crying said that she climbed the steps to tell them what happened.
- Neither Calvery or anyone else described her being accompanied by someone else she was “linking arms” with.
- Anyone standing along that section of Elm would be “close enough to see the blood”.

Instead of resolving the discrepancies as you do by assuming that Lovelady and Shelley were lying (for what reason?), it is much more simply resolved by discarding your unproven notion that black-blob-person on the steps is Calvery telling everyone that the president was shot.