If Oswald Was The Assassin, Did He Plan His Escape From The TSBD Very Well?

[Michael T. Griffith]

Craig said he saw the man "about" 15 minutes after the shooting.

Nobody has ever explained the presence of the phony Secret Service agents whom Harkness encountered behind the TSBD a few minutes after the shooting. Harkness stipulated that the men told him they were Secret Service agents. He said they were dressed in suits and were "well armed." Whoever they were, they could not have been Secret Service agents.

I would be interested in tracking down the story that some witnesses in the plaza thought they heard a gunshot a few minutes after the assassination.

[Dan O'meara]

"I am not assuming that Shelley and Lovelady are lying, I am merely pointing out the fact that they are both lying. They both 'lie by omission' when they leave out going towards the railroad yard, walking up the dead-end street, waiting by the spur track, watching all the police activity, walking through the car park on the west side of the TSBD and entering through the side door of the shipping room. These actions form the majority of their account from the time of the last shot to the time they enter the TSBD and both men deliberately leave it out."

How do you know they deliberately left it out?

I like that you're not questioning whether they're lying or not but whether they're lying deliberately, as if there was another way of lying.
Here's why I'm convinced they are leaving it out deliberately -
In their WC testimonies both men go into detail about watching the chaotic aftermath of the shooting, wandering down the dead-end road in the direction of the railroad yard, standing around watching all the police activity then re-entering the TSBD through a side-door on the west side of the building. Would it be fair to say all this activity constitutes the majority of their actions between hearing the shots and re-entering the TSBD? Their affidavits are taken on the day of the assassination yet both men have completely omitted this aspect of their actions. This alone makes me suspicious - one man forgets all this, maybe. But both? Hours after the event?
In their affidavits both men give the impression that very shortly after the shots they head straight back into the TSBD through the front entrance. They are deliberately distancing themselves from the side-door on the west side, it is a co-ordinated and concerted effort by both men.
Obviously you state that you favour the affidavits over the WC testimony so you don't believe any of this down towards the railroad yard/watching the police/going in the side-door happened anyway. You believe that Shelley went straight back in and phoned his wife. That's fair enough. I, however don't. Just because there are contradictory statements I don't think it's enough just to choose one over the other. We must try and understand why there are contradictory statements.

"Far more amazing than this is the lie they both construct for their WC testimony, again both men lying in exactly the same way although this time its a different type of lie. If you respond to this post John, and I doubt you will, I would like to hear from you, or from anyone on this forum, the reason you think both men deliberately and knowingly insist Gloria Calvery took 3 to 4 minutes to make her way to them even though she was running and even though someone mooching along at a leisurely, Oswald-like 3 mph can cover 132 ft in 30 seconds."

Wait. So you know that they are lying because you somehow know how long it took Calvery to get there, because you know that’s her in Couch? Nice circular argument. What if that’s not Calvery?

You have so missed the point here it's not even funny. Let me walk you through what's being said:
1) In their WC testimonies both men are saying that Calvery ran up to them (1st event) then they saw Baker and Truly at the steps (2nd event)
2) In their WC testimonies both men say it took at least 3 minutes for Calvery to come running up to them

The point you are missing is this - both men are saying it took Truly and Baker at least 3 minutes to reach the steps of the TSBD!!
We know for a fact that is a lie. You must surely be able to see this. We know from Couch and Darnell and multiple testimonies that Baker reaches the TSBD steps approximately 20 - 30 seconds after the final shot. We can be absolutely certain of this. But Shelley and Lovelady are both saying it was at least 3 minutes before this happened. They have been caught red-handed in a lie, both telling the same, deliberate co-ordinated lie just as they did in their affidavits but this time it was not a 'lie of omission'. There is no circular argument here!
This is enough to irrefutably demonstrate they are lying but there is one more detail. When both men refer to Calvery in their WC testimonies they consistently refer to her running. How long do you think it would take to run from the location of the assassination to the steps of the TSBD? Remember, a person slowly walking 3mph can cover over 130 ft in 30 seconds.

"If they left the steps together, then why are the guy you think is Lovelady and the guy you think is Shelley not both on the steps?

I'm pointing out irrefutable examples of Shelley and Lovelady deliberately deceiving the authorities, deliberately twisting the truth of what happened that day and this is your lead question?? Okay. Nowhere does it state Shelley was on the steps when Calvery came running up to them."

You missed the point. In the film clip, your “Lovelady” is still on the steps and your “Shelley” is not. However, Lovelady testified:

Mr. BALL - First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.
Mr. LOVELADY - Mr. Shelley.

This is semantics gone mad. A completely irrelevant detail blown up out of all proportion demonstrating an overwhelming inability to bring anything serious to the table. Not that it matters but I'll walk you through how you are getting even this bit of trivia wrong.
Ball is asking Lovelady "whom you left the steps with". The 'you' in this question obviously refers to Lovelady. Ball is asking who Lovelady was with when he left the steps to which he answers 'Mr Shelley'. The only person who needs to be on the steps here is Lovelady, that is how English works. You are making the assumption that Shelley has to be on the steps. The problem you are having is with the word 'with'. Shelley is stood very close to Lovelady but is not on the steps. They are still 'with' each. When Lovelady leaves the steps to walk away he is 'with' Shelley. This does not mean Shelley has to be on the steps, just as we see in the L/G gif.
There is another argument where the steps are being used a reference point but I cannot be bothered wasting any more of my life on this nonsense. It doesn't matter how much I spoon feed you on this you still won't accept what I'm saying.

I won't be dealing with any more of your points as they mean nothing. I've put an excellent argument forward to identify Calvery in the L/G Gif. If you want to argue the points I've made in a serious way I'm all for it but if you want to carry on with this nit-picking childishness I won't be bothering. I'm hear to learn and be challenged and to try and move forward somehow. I'm not hear to bicker with someone with an entrenched mentality who has already decided they are the chosen one with all the answers. If anyone really knew what was going on none of us would be here.

[Martin Weidmann]

She prob got the order wrong. Happens everyday.

So, Dorothy Garner could get the order wrong (for which there is no evidence) but Victoria Adams couldn't get wrong where and when she had seen Lovelady and Shelley (for which there is plenty of evidence)?

 

[Dan O'meara]

The bottom line is this - Adams is insistent that the message she hears on the police motorcycle radio references shots coming from the second floor:

"There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused-there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor.
Mr. BELIN - Did they say second floor or second floor from the top?
Miss ADAMS - It said second floor. So then I decided maybe I had better go back into the building, and going up the stairs---"

This seems like an unusual mistake for anyone to make. The shots came from the 6th floor, how can anyone make such an enormous mistake as to say the shooter was on the 2nd. Even months after the event in her WC testimony, knowing where the shots came from, Adams is still insistent she heard a message referencing a shooter on the second floor.
When we look at the transcripts of the Dallas Police Tapes we find the same, mistaken claim:

"We have a man here who says he saw him pull the weapon back through the window off of the second floor from the southeast corner of that depository building"

This message is surely the one Adams is referencing. It takes place at 12:37. I've heard elsewhere claims that these dispatch times are not wholly accurate which may be the case but it seems to me there is an independent way to check this. The shooting happens at 12:30 and this is totally reflected in the transcripts of the Dallas Police tapes. So we can say with a certain amount of confidence the message Adams hears that causes her to head back into the TSBD takes place at 12:37.
If we accept their testimonies, it is hard to imagine Shelley and Lovelady being in a position to encounter Adams and Styles coming down the stairs (something Shelley doesn't acknowledge happening) any earlier than 12:35

Until someone can construct a realistic timeline in which Adams talks briefly to Shelley, races out the back door, down the Houston St dock stairs, makes her way to the very back of the TSBD, takes a right and encounters a police officer she has a conversation with, makes her way along the west side of the building, walks back up the dead-end street towards the front entrance of the TSBD and has a conversation with colleagues after which she hears the radio message and does all this in two minutes (120 seconds)...
...what's the point, it's not going to happen. A realistic timeline has already been proposed and, as Shelley himself points out in his WC testimony, the encounter with Adams and Shelley on the first floor did not take place. Propose an alternative timeline or enter into a dialogue about the arguments being made for the proposed timeline.

[Charles Collins]

The bottom line is this - Adams is insistent that the message she hears on the police motorcycle radio references shots coming from the second floor:

"There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused-there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor.
Mr. BELIN - Did they say second floor or second floor from the top?
Miss ADAMS - It said second floor. So then I decided maybe I had better go back into the building, and going up the stairs---"

This seems like an unusual mistake for anyone to make. The shots came from the 6th floor, how can anyone make such an enormous mistake as to say the shooter was on the 2nd. Even months after the event in her WC testimony, knowing where the shots came from, Adams is still insistent she heard a message referencing a shooter on the second floor.
When we look at the transcripts of the Dallas Police Tapes we find the same, mistaken claim:

"We have a man here who says he saw him pull the weapon back through the window off of the second floor from the southeast corner of that depository building"

This message is surely the one Adams is referencing. It takes place at 12:37. I've heard elsewhere claims that these dispatch times are not wholly accurate which may be the case but it seems to me there is an independent way to check this. The shooting happens at 12:30 and this is totally reflected in the transcripts of the Dallas Police tapes. So we can say with a certain amount of confidence the message Adams hears that causes her to head back into the TSBD takes place at 12:37.
If we accept their testimonies, it is hard to imagine Shelley and Lovelady being in a position to encounter Adams and Styles coming down the stairs (something Shelley doesn't acknowledge happening) any earlier than 12:35

Until someone can construct a realistic timeline in which Adams talks briefly to Shelley, races out the back door, down the Houston St dock stairs, makes her way to the very back of the TSBD, takes a right and encounters a police officer she has a conversation with, makes her way along the west side of the building, walks back up the dead-end street towards the front entrance of the TSBD and has a conversation with colleagues after which she hears the radio message and does all this in two minutes (120 seconds)...
...what's the point, it's not going to happen. A realistic timeline has already been proposed and, as Shelley himself points out in his WC testimony, the encounter with Adams and Shelley on the first floor did not take place. Propose an alternative timeline or enter into a dialogue about the arguments being made for the proposed timeline.

This seems like an unusual mistake for anyone to make. The shots came from the 6th floor, how can anyone make such an enormous mistake as to say the shooter was on the 2nd.

The sixth floor is the second floor (from the top of the building). Maybe the last part of the description, in parenthesis, got lost somewhere in the transfer of information between the witness, officer on the scene, & dispatcher? Just a thought...

[John Iacoletti]

I like that you're not questioning whether they're lying or not but whether they're lying deliberately, as if there was another way of lying.

It would have to be deliberate (and false) in order for it to be a lie. Something isn’t a lie just because you believe something different happened. You’re making a lot of assumptions based on this claimed identification of Calvery in a blurry film clip a couple of seconds long.

This alone makes me suspicious - one man forgets all this, maybe. But both? Hours after the event?
In their affidavits both men give the impression that very shortly after the shots they head straight back into the TSBD through the front entrance. They are deliberately distancing themselves from the side-door on the west side, it is a co-ordinated and concerted effort by both men.

They would have no reason on November 22 to think that such a detail about where they went, how long it took, and what door they came back in had any relevance to the assassination whatsoever. In fact, I don’t even understand why you think them going in the side door was relevant enough for them to deliberately conceal it on Nov 22.

Obviously you state that you favour the affidavits over the WC testimony so you don't believe any of this down towards the railroad yard/watching the police/going in the side-door happened anyway.

Why would I think it didn’t happen? Just because they left out some details? I’m just wondering why you’re using a dubious identification of Calvery to claim that Lovelady and Shelley deliberately lied about how long they were on the steps.

"Far more amazing than this is the lie they both construct for their WC testimony, again both men lying in exactly the same way although this time its a different type of lie. If you respond to this post John, and I doubt you will, I would like to hear from you, or from anyone on this forum, the reason you think both men deliberately and knowingly insist Gloria Calvery took 3 to 4 minutes to make her way to them even though she was running and even though someone mooching along at a leisurely, Oswald-like 3 mph can cover 132 ft in 30 seconds."

IF they were wrong about how much time passed (and you don’t know that they were), it could simply mean that they misjudged the time. Time appears to slow down for people during traumatic events. That doesn’t mean they deliberately lied about it. But they’re not wrong just because you believe that a black-blob on the steps is Gloria Calvery. You’re assuming that they were lying about this without even a plausible reason for doing so.

The point you are missing is this - both men are saying it took Truly and Baker at least 3 minutes to reach the steps of the TSBD!!
We know for a fact that is a lie.

So this really has nothing to do with Calvery then. Maybe she took three minutes. You don’t know when she started running or that she ran the whole time. She was a large woman. Maybe they confused the order of events. Maybe they misjudged the time. That doesn’t make any of it a deliberate lie.

This is semantics gone mad. A completely irrelevant detail blown up out of all proportion demonstrating an overwhelming inability to bring anything serious to the table. Not that it matters but I'll walk you through how you are getting even this bit of trivia wrong.
Ball is asking Lovelady "whom you left the steps with". The 'you' in this question obviously refers to Lovelady. Ball is asking who Lovelady was with when he left the steps to which he answers 'Mr Shelley'. The only person who needs to be on the steps here is Lovelady, that is how English works.

You have to be on the steps in order to “leave the steps”, right? You think you know what happened better than Lovelady just because of a film clip that you can’t even demonstrate for a fact who is who in?

I've put an excellent argument forward to identify Calvery in the L/G Gif.

There’s nothing “excellent” about it. It’s all handwaving Tommy Graves nonsense that ignores several pieces of evidence, like Shelley’s affidavit and Westbrook’s interview which contradict it.

If you want to argue the points I've made in a serious way I'm all for it but if you want to carry on with this nit-picking childishness I won't be bothering.

As you wish, but “because I said so” arguments will only carry you so far.

I'm hear to learn and be challenged and to try and move forward somehow. I'm not hear to bicker with someone with an entrenched mentality who has already decided they are the chosen one with all the answers. If anyone really knew what was going on none of us would be here.

Says the guy who thinks he has it all figured out because of his “excellent” Calvary argument.

[Tim Nickerson]

I am not assuming that Shelley and Lovelady are lying, I am merely pointing out the fact that they are both lying. They both 'lie by omission' when they leave out going towards the railroad yard, walking up the dead-end street, waiting by the spur track, watching all the police activity, walking through the car park on the west side of the TSBD and entering through the side door of the shipping room. These actions form the majority of their account from the time of the last shot to the time they enter the TSBD and both men deliberately leave it out. What's going on at this side door that's so important?

Being wrong or leaving out details of something you did or experienced months prior is not necessarily lying. Just about every witness that day recounted something incorrectly. That doesn't mean that everyone of them were liars. Your quickness to label Shelley and Lovelady as liars is a poor reflection on yourself.