Adams, Shelley and Lovelady

[Walt Cakebread]

Debate it and find out, Walt

My position based on the evidence of the testimony by Shelley and Lovelady is that Victoria Adams could not have seen either man on the first floor until at least several minutes after the shots. This would mean that she and Styles would have waited several minutes after the shots before going down, which in turn does to match with what Dorothy Garner told Barefoot Sanders.

The only way IMO to reconcile the testimony of Victoria Adams with that of Shelley and Lovelady is that she did in fact see both men but only after she had been on the 1st floor for several minutes and was on her way out of the door. In other words, she did not see both men when she arrived on the first floor, as the WC concluded.

Martin, I've read "Girl On The Stairs" and I agree with you....  But the point is, there is no way to prove it.    At the end of the chapter it's still two conflicting stories.

[Martin Weidmann]

Martin, I've read "Girl On The Stairs" and I agree with you....  But the point is, there is no way to prove it.    At the end of the chapter it's still two conflicting stories.

Martin, I've read "Girl On The Stairs" and I agree with you....

I haven't read the book, but I understand from what I have read on the internet that Victoria Adams told Barry Ernest that she never said anything about Shelley and/or Lovelady in her testimony. I have given that some thought, especially in light of the fact that the original transcript of her testimony at the National Archive does contain the Shelley quotes, and I concluded that there must be another explanation. I don't think Victoria Adams lied to Barry Ernest but she spoke to him decades after the event and her memory may have been playing tricks on her.


But the point is, there is no way to prove it.    At the end of the chapter it's still two conflicting stories.

That's is no different than with many other issues in this case. Stories that have conflicted 50+ years ago still conflict now. All we can do is try to reconcile the information as best we can.

[Gerry Down]

I don't think Victoria Adams lied to Barry Ernest but she spoke to him decades after the event and her memory may have been playing tricks on her.

Women never lie 

[Martin Weidmann]

Women never lie 

Thank you for that very useful contribution.

[John Iacoletti]

Also, the landing between the two stairs wasn't every big. With a wooden floor and the women walking on heels, it would be highly unlikely that they could have passed by Truly and Baker unnoticed.

Also if somebody was in the stairwell dashing down the stairs while they were in the stairwell, they would have heard him.

[Ross Lidell]

I never saw this post. Is this the virgin or one of your many conquests? 

A lot of details: Well thought out, but as others have said, it cannot be proven as the only alternative. Again we see the possibility of timing discrepancies being a "possible" explanation for a perceived anomaly.

This is one of those matters that is peripheral to the actual assassination. It does not eliminate the existence of a 6th floor shooter (Oswald or the hitman). If you substitute the 6th floor shooter for Oswald, very little if anything changes in post-kill circumstances. One might ask: Why didn't Adams see the "hitman" on the stairs?

Incidentally, I'm not buying the preposterous theory that the "hitman" stayed behind on the 6th floor posing as a detective and then slipped out of the TSBD when the real cops were distracted with their duties.

[Martin Weidmann]

I never saw this post. Is this the virgin or one of your many conquests? 

A lot of details: Well thought out, but as others have said, it cannot be proven as the only alternative. Again we see the possibility of timing discrepancies being a "possible" explanation for a perceived anomaly.

This is one of those matters that is peripheral to the actual assassination. It does not eliminate the existence of a 6th floor shooter (Oswald or the hitman). If you substitute the 6th floor shooter for Oswald, very little if anything changes in post-kill circumstances. One might ask: Why didn't Adams see the "hitman" on the stairs?

Incidentally, I'm not buying the preposterous theory that the "hitman" stayed behind on the 6th floor posing as a detective and then slipped out of the TSBD when the real cops were distracted with their duties.

A lot of details: Well thought out, but as others have said, it cannot be proven as the only alternative. Again we see the possibility of timing discrepancies being a "possible" explanation for a perceived anomaly.

I am not sure what you are going on about. There is no "only alternative" to be proven. The WC dismissed the testimony of Victoria Adams based upon her seeing Shelley and Lovelady after coming down from the stairs. They never resolved how much time passed between Adams and Styles arriving on the first floor and them seeing Shelley and Lovelady there. So we are left with their testimonies and there clearly is a time discrepancy between two scenarios.

All I am trying to do is look at the only two options the available evidence provides us with;

1. Adams & Styles went down the stairs before Dorothy Garner saw Truly and Baker come up, in which case the combined testimony of Shelley and Lovelady shows conclusively that the girls couldn't not have seen them when they came of the stairs because both men were not ,and could not have been, there at around 12.31

or

2. Adams & Styles did see Shelley and Lovelady as they came down the stairs (which is what the WC claimed) which means that they must have waited on the 4th floor for several minutes after the shots, which does not compute with Adams' testimony and Garner's observation. Also, had they stayed up there, they should have seen Oswald running over the landing from stairs to stairs, which they didn't.

There are no more options, at least not that I am aware of. To reconcile both scenarios and do justice to all the available evidence, I would suggest that Adams and Styles did go down the stairs directly after the shots and before Truly and Baker went up. I would further suggest that Victoria Adams did indeed see Shelley (and Lovelady) on the first floor, but only after the two men got there, several minutes after the shots and not at the moment she and Styles arrived on the first floor. Adams just never communicated that time lapse correctly in her testimony.

Edit: On 11/24/63 Victoria Adams was interviewed by FBI agents Hardin and Scott. She told them that she and Styles immediately ran to the stairs after the third shot and left the building at the back directly after coming down the stairs. They ran towards the railroad yard where a policeman stopped them and told them to return to the building, which they subsequently did. With this in mind, it seems to me that it is highly unlikely that Adams could have seen Shelley and Lovelady immediately after coming down the stairs for the simple reason that both men's testimony shows that they were not and could not have been there at that time. However, it would be possible and plausible for Adams to have seen those men as she re-entered the building, several minutes later.

If my suggestion is true the WC got it wrong and dismissed Adams' testimony without cause. In that case Adams and Styles did go down the stairs before Truly and Baker came up, making it a very tight fit for anybody coming from the 6th floor to run down to the second floor unseen by anybody. If the suggestion is incorrect, I don't really see any other scenario that would provide a plausible explanation and do justice to all the available evidence.


This is one of those matters that is peripheral to the actual assassination. It does not eliminate the existence of a 6th floor shooter (Oswald or the hitman). If you substitute the 6th floor shooter for Oswald, very little if anything changes in post-kill circumstances. One might ask: Why didn't Adams see the "hitman" on the stairs?

None of this is really relevant to my question. Nobody claimed it eliminated the existence of a 6th floor shooter, but the answer to the contradiction in the testimonies does go towards the basic matter of Adams and Styles not seeing or hearing anybody on the stairs.

Incidentally, I'm not buying the preposterous theory that the "hitman" stayed behind on the 6th floor posing as a detective and then slipped out of the TSBD when the real cops were distracted with their duties.

As you are a contrarian, I expected no less that an outright denial from you, so there is no surprise there. Unlike you, though, I am not going to ask you for evidence in support of your "claim"! I bet you can't even explain why the theory is "preposterous" in the first place anyway. Nor am I going to tell you how I think you should respond to my posts, like you constantly do.