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Author Topic: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory  (Read 16853 times)

Online Tom Scully

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
« Reply #750 on: December 04, 2019, 09:15:53 PM »




Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it. Those who are ill informed or are disposed to admiration of authoritarian "strong-men" or who favor something markedly different from
North American style representative government, say....contemporary Chinese or Russian imposition of "order" meted out by power brutally concentrated in the hands of cults of personality in both China and Russia
do not accurately inform readers of this debate, or readers anywhere else.

So far, the "lesson" U.S. foreign policy has taught to North Korean and Iranian "rulers" for example, is: give up your nuclear weapons or nuclear weapons programs and kiss your asses goodbye, despite U.S. guarantees to the contrary. The example of "post nuclear" Libya supports this point. Or, reject all treaties intended by the U.S. to enforce nuclear arms control and the U.S. will be you best friend. Israel - U.S. relations supports this point.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances refers to three identical political agreements signed at the OSCE conference in Budapest, Hungary on 5 December 1994, providing security assurances by its signatories relating to the accession of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. The memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear powers, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom, and the United States of America. China and France gave somewhat weaker individual assurances in separate documents.[1]

The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan.

As a result, between 1994 and 1996, Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons. Before that, Ukraine had the world's third largest nuclear weapons stockpile,[2][3] of which Ukraine had physical if not operational control.[4][5] The use of the weapons was dependent on Russian-controlled electronic Permissive Action Links and the Russian command and control system.[4][5]

In 2009, the Russian Federation and the United States released a joint statement that the memorandum’s security assurances would still be respected after the expiration of the START Treaty.[6]

Following the annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation in 2014,
the US,[7][8] Canada,[9] the UK,[10] along with other countries,[11] stated that Russian involvement was a breach of its obligations to Ukraine under the Budapest Memorandum, a Memorandum transmitted to the United Nations under the signature of Sergei Lavrov, amongst others,[12] and in violation of Ukrainian sovereignty and territorial integrity. On 4 March 2014, the Russian president replied to a question on violation of Budapest Memorandum, describing current Ukrainian situation as a revolution, when "a new state arises, but with this state and in respect to this state, we have not signed any obligatory documents".[13] Russia stated it had never been under obligation to "force any part of Ukraine's civilian population to stay in Ukraine against its will." Russia suggested that the US was in violation of the Budapest Memorandum, describing the Euromaidan as a US-instigated coup.[14]

Without total, reiterated UNAMBIGUOUS commitment to respond under Article Five, an attack against one is an attack against all, there is NO NATO. Speaker Pelosi aptly put it in Trump's face, just a few months ago."
Quote
(with you,) all roads lead to Putin...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/pelosi-recalls-clash-with-trump-says-she-was-probably-telling-him-that-all-roads-lead-to-putin/2019/10/17/fdbde8d2-f0f2-11e9-8693-f487e46784aa_story.html

Quote
Trump Declines to Affirm NATO's Article 5
Speaking in front of the leaders of its member-nations, the president fails to make clear the United States still has the alliance’s back.

ROSIE GRAY
MAY 25, 2017.....

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/05/trump-declines-to-affirm-natos-article-5/528129/

Quote
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/12/04/nato-is-life-support-trumps-one-who-put-it-there/
Opinions
NATO is on life support — and Trump’s the one who put it there

By
Max Boot
Columnist
Dec. 4, 2019 at 1:36 p.m. EST
President Trump’s meetings with anti-American despots such as Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Kim Jong Un and Vladimir Putin are inevitably lovefests. His meetings with democratic allies are inevitably tense and acrimonious. This week’s NATO summit in London held true to disastrous form....
...

Quote
https://news.google.com/?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:en
4:00 PM est December 4, 2019

Scholars Call Trump’s Actions on Ukraine an Impeachable Abuse of Power
WASHINGTON — The House Judiciary Committee opened an epic partisan clash over the impeachment of President Trump on Wednesday at a hearing where ...
The New York Times
1 hour ago

A grave charge and a momentous turn in the Trump impeachment inquiry
The stunningly consequential accusation spelled out in the Democrats' impeachment report represents the most sweeping effort yet to capture the span of ...
CNN
6 hours ago

Impeachment legal case is ‘woefully inadequate,’ 'dangerous,' legal expert Turley testifies
An expert legal witness testified Wednesday that the current legal case for impeaching President Trump is “woefully inadequate” and “dangerous,” as the House ...
Fox News
6 hours ago

Column: Democrats’ impeachment report is TOTALLY UNFAIR to Trump!
Of course the president is going to look bad if you put together all the bad things he has done and look at them as a whole. This is a clear case of treasonous ...
Chicago Tribune
4 hours ago
Opinion

« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 09:22:18 PM by Tom Scully »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
« Reply #750 on: December 04, 2019, 09:15:53 PM »

Online Tom Scully

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
« Reply #751 on: December 04, 2019, 09:41:11 PM »




"Russia is not an enemy,".....at best, simplistic.... and it flies in the face of demonstrable fact Putin policy is to reduce former Soviet Socialist Republics to, at best, semi-autonomous border states. If that was the indicated U.S. policy towards Canada, Tim Nickerson's posts might display different sentiments than now!

The only purpose of the objections to NATO displayed above is to weaken confidence in NATO's Article Five commitment by the U.S. , ironically, the only NATO member in the 70 year history of the mutual defense alliance to ever
invoke it (after 9/11).

This propaganda serves to cast doubt in the former Soviet Socialist "republics" bordering Russia, giving dictator Putin the upper hand in any negotiation with those now autonomous states, as Putin works to make them semi-autonomous,
case in point, the weakening of Ukraine's negotiating position vs Putin, directly resulting from Trump's gross misuse of power in (secretly, from Congress) withholding legislated military aid from Ukraine in pursuit of domestic, 2020 election advantage.

From NATO's website:
https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/pdf_2019_06/20190625_PR2019-069-EN.pdf




« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 09:49:32 PM by Tom Scully »

Offline Jack Trojan

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
« Reply #752 on: December 04, 2019, 11:58:01 PM »
    I have watched a lot of Trump rallies. I have heard him mention going to Wharton Business School.  NEVER have I heard claim to have graduated "1st in his class".  You're babbling on and on is a symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome. Hopefully, its' the early stages and you can still get some help. Don't wait too long. Trump winning in 2020 will probably do you in.

Your only comment re my post is that Trump never claimed he was 1st in his class?  ;D What about the rest of my TDS musings? In the meantime, check it out at the 40 sec mark.


But what I did notice with Trump is that he is a well practiced bullshitter and when it comes to things crucial to his public persona such as his wealth or intelligence he is very careful about committing himself to anything that can be fact checked, such as his tax returns and grades. Trump thinks his transcripts are secure so he is free to claim he was the best most wonderful genius of a student, but he can't claim to be 1st in his class because that bullshit can be checked. So what he does instead, which I have seen many times, is he claims "they say I was 1st in class". And who is he to argue. Just don't look it up.

It's similar to the way Trump talks about himself in the 3rd person, probably because he has a bunch of crazy voices in his head telling him to collude with foreign countries to help him win the election so he can put off going to jail for another 20 years. That is, if you Deplorables have anything to say about it.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 12:14:39 AM by Jack Trojan »

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
« Reply #752 on: December 04, 2019, 11:58:01 PM »

Online Tom Scully

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
« Reply #753 on: December 05, 2019, 12:01:51 AM »
    WOW! A once revered researcher on this Forum goes careening off the rails. Trump Derangement Syndrome strikes again. Tis a pity, but there remain those that simply refuse to accept Trump won the 2016 election. Like it or Not, that is reality. Why not focus your energy on actually electing someone else vs slandering anyone and anything connected to Trump?

Royell, if you were in my shoes, would you be convinced of anything, influenced by your responses to my posts?
Consider the Trump party portrayal of Mr. Trump, "Non-partisan corruption fighter," LOL !
VS
(In fairness to Royell, I see now that he quoted this post before I edited in this small addition of CNN reporting, dated Nov. 21, 2019)
Quote
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/21/politics/gordon-sondland-testimony/index.html
The huge Gordon Sondland revelation almost everyone missed
Chris Cillizza
Analysis by Chris Cillizza, CNN Editor-at-large - Updated 9:40 AM ET, Thu November 21, 2019

...But there was one piece of Sondland's testimony that didn't get as much attention as it should have. Under questioning from Intelligence Committee chair Adam Schiff (D-California) about the specific nature of the quid pro quo between President Donald Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, Sondland said this:
"He had to announce the investigations. He didn't actually have to do them, as I understood it."
....

President Trump has deliberately plunged the U.S. into a Constitutional crisis by making it plain, beginning with his mid-year interview by George  Stephanopoulos  on ABC network that Mr. Trump would not rule out recipt of "dirt" from a foreign government if it would be deemed by Mr. Trump to provide him with advantage over a political rival. Trump contradicted testimony of the FBI director he appointed after firing Jim Comey. Director Wray had said the proper reaction upon receipt of an offer of "dirt" is to report such an interaction to the FBI to be investigated.

Royell, unlike you, opponents of Trump are not taken up into the cult of personality currently enabling his anti Constitutional oath breaking. I would no more trust Mr. Trump, considering his own known deeds and pronouncements, to know right from wrong, let alone trust him not to abuse the power of his office to taint "fair and free" elections, skewing the outcome to his perceived advantage.

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https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/id-exclusive-interview-trump-listen-foreigners-offered-dirt/story?id=63669304
'I think I’d take it': In exclusive interview, Trump says he would listen if foreigners offered dirt on opponents
ByLUCIEN BRUGGEMAN
Jun 13, 2019, 6:58 AM ET

.."It's not an interference, they have information -- I think I'd take it," Trump said. "If I thought there was something wrong, I'd go maybe to the FBI -- if I thought there was something wrong. But when somebody comes up with oppo research, right, they come up with oppo research, 'oh let's call the FBI.' The FBI doesn't have enough agents to take care of it. When you go and talk, honestly, to congressman, they all do it, they always have, and that's the way it is. It's called oppo research."....

..."Somebody comes up and says, ‘hey, I have information on your opponent,' do you call the FBI?" Trump responded.

"I'll tell you what, I've seen a lot of things over my life. I don't think in my whole life I've ever called the FBI. In my whole life. You don't call the FBI. You throw somebody out of your office, you do whatever you do," Trump continued. "Oh, give me a break – life doesn't work that way."...
....But on Wednesday, the president refuted Wray's sentiment.

"The FBI director is wrong, because frankly it doesn't happen like that in life," Trump said. "Now maybe it will start happening, maybe today you'd think differently."...

Trump's comportment and assertions in that interview came shortly after a letter was drafted and signed by one thousand former prosecutors and other former DOJ employees bringing attention to as many as ten examples, at least five chargeable as felony obstruction of justice, allegedly committed by President Trump,
laid out in the Mueller report, intended by Trump to block the Mueller convened grand jury from obtaining the evidence necessary to determine if Trump and or his campaign and "fake fired/seperated" actors such as Manafort and Roger Stone had welcomed or cooperated with interference in the 2016 election by Putin government (Putin is the "Russian government") affiliated, encouraged. assigned, etc. persons of interest to the FBI and later, to the Mueller investigation.

IOW, Royell, Mr. Trump has cast into doubt the confidence in Constitutionally mandated fair and free elections because he has boldly and consistently demonstrated he will do anything to "win," i.e., to subvert the integrity of any election he perceives he holds an interest in.

These facts make it plain to democrats they have no choice but to attempt to hold Mr. Trump accountable, no matter the future political cost to them because their is no "ball game," when the POTUS breaks his oath to "preserve and to protect," the "stadium" in which the "ball game' is played, the Constitution of the U.S.

Quote
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/01/us/politics/biden-son-ukraine.html
Biden Faces Conflict of Interest Questions That Are Being Promoted by Trump and Allies
By Kenneth P. Vogel and Iuliia Mendel   May 1, 2019

.....Hunter Biden, who left Burisma’s board last month, was one of many politically prominent Americans of both major parties who made money in Ukraine over the last decade. In several cases — most notably that of Paul Manafort, President Trump’s former campaign chairman — that business came under criminal investigation that exposed a seedy side of the lucrative Western consulting industry in Ukraine.

But the renewed scrutiny of Hunter Biden’s experience in Ukraine has also been fanned by allies of Mr. Trump. They have been eager to publicize and even encourage the investigation, as well as other Ukrainian inquiries that serve Mr. Trump’s political ends, underscoring the Trump campaign’s concern about the electoral threat from the former vice president’s presidential campaign.

The Trump team’s efforts to draw attention to the Bidens’ work in Ukraine, which is already yielding coverage in conservative media, has been led partly by Rudolph W. Giuliani, who served as a lawyer for Mr. Trump in the investigation by the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III. Mr. Giuliani’s involvement raises questions about whether Mr. Trump is endorsing an effort to push a foreign government to proceed with a case that could hurt a political opponent at home.

Mr. Giuliani has discussed the Burisma investigation, and its intersection with the Bidens, with the ousted Ukrainian prosecutor general and the current prosecutor. He met with the current prosecutor multiple times in New York this year. The current prosecutor general later told associates that, during one of the meetings, Mr. Giuliani called Mr. Trump excitedly to brief him on his findings, according to people familiar with the conversations.

Mr. Giuliani declined to comment on any such phone call with Mr. Trump, but acknowledged that he has discussed the matter with the president on multiple occasions. Mr. Trump, in turn, recently suggested he would like Attorney General William P. Barr to look into the material gathered by the Ukrainian prosecutors — echoing repeated calls from Mr. Giuliani for the Justice Department to investigate the Bidens’ Ukrainian work and other connections between Ukraine and the United States.

Mr. Giuliani said he got involved because he was seeking to counter the Mueller investigation with evidence that Democrats conspired with sympathetic Ukrainians to help initiate what became the special counsel’s inquiry.

“I can assure you this all started with an allegation about possible Ukrainian involvement in the investigation of Russian meddling, and not Biden,” Mr. Giuliani said. “The Biden piece is collateral to the bigger story, but must still be investigated, but without the prejudgments that infected the collusion story.”

The decision to reopen the investigation into Burisma was made in March by the current Ukrainian prosecutor general, who had cleared Hunter Biden’s employer more than two years ago. The announcement came in the midst of Ukraine’s contentious presidential election, and was seen in some quarters as an effort by the prosecutor general, Yuriy Lutsenko, to curry favor from the Trump administration for his boss and ally, the incumbent president, Petro O. Poroshenko.

Mr. Poroshenko lost his re-election bid in a landslide last month. While the incoming president, Volodymyr Zelensky, has said he will replace Mr. Lutsenko as prosecutor general, Mr. Zelensky has not said whether the prosecutors he appoints will be asked to continue the investigation.

Kostiantyn H. Kulyk, a deputy for Mr. Lutsenko who was handling the cases before being reassigned last month, told The New York Times that he was scrutinizing millions of dollars of payments from Burisma to the firm that paid Hunter Biden.

No evidence has surfaced that the former vice president intentionally tried to help his son by pressing for the prosecutor general’s dismissal. Some of his former associates, moreover, said Mr. Biden never did anything to deter other Obama administration officials who were pushing for the United States to support criminal investigations by Ukrainian and British authorities — and potentially to start its own investigation — into Burisma and its owner, Mykola Zlochevsky, for possible money laundering and abuse of office.

The Biden campaign cast the revival of the Ukrainian investigation as politically motivated and pointed to the involvement of Mr. Giuliani to question the motives behind the new scrutiny.

Kate Bedingfield, a Biden campaign spokeswoman, said the former vice president’s push to oust the former prosecutor general, Viktor Shokin, was undertaken “without any regard for how it would or would not impact any business interests of his son, a private citizen.”

The effort, she added, was consistent with “the United States’ foreign policy to root out corruption in Ukraine” and was backed by the United States government, allies and multilateral institutions, including the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank.

The younger Mr. Biden said in the statement, “At no time have I discussed with my father the company’s business, or my board service, including my initial decision to join the board.”

Mr. Lutsenko denied any political motivation in reopening the case......

........
Solomon's name appears in the House Intel Committee impeachment inquiry report 38 times, Nunes's name 45+ times.

Who are you? You cannot be serious. A broken clock is more reliable than 90 percent of what you include in your posts.

https://intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/20191203_-_full_report___hpsci_impeachment_inquiry_-_20191203.pdf



Quote
https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/434875-top-ukrainian-justice-official-says-us-ambassador-gave-him-a-do-not-prosecute
Top Ukrainian justice official says US ambassador gave him a do not prosecute list
3/20/2019

Ukrainian Prosecutor General Yuriy Lutsenko told Hill.TV's John Solomon in an interview that aired Wednesday that U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Marie Yovanovitch gave him a do not prosecute list during their first meeting....

Quote
http://www.msnbc.com/transcripts/the-last-word/2019-12-03
Pres. Trump clashes with friends and foes. TRANSCRIPT: 12/3/19, The Last Word w/ Lawrence O’Donnell.
12/03/19 10:00 PM

REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA):  This report chronicles a scheme by the president

of the United States to coerce an ally, Ukraine, that is at war with an

adversary, Russia, into doing the president`s political dirty work.  It

involves a scheme in which Donald Trump withheld official acts, a White

House meeting, as well as hundreds of millions of dollars of needed

military assistance in order to compel that power to deliver two

investigations that he believed would assist his re-election campaign.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL:  “The New York Times” calls the report a sweeping indictment of

the president`s behavior.  The report says that knowledge of and

participation in the president`s scheme was widespread and included the

vice president, the secretary of state, the acting chief of staff, the

secretary of energy and other senior U.S. officials.

Chairman Schiff said that the committee will continue its investigation but

needed to present these findings as quickly as possible because of, quote,

a clear and present danger that the president will continue to use the

power of his office for his personal, political gain.

And leading off our discussion tonight is the chairman of the House

Intelligence Committee, Democratic Congressman Adam Schiff of California.

Chairman Schiff, thank you very much for joining us on this important and

historic night.

What can you tell us about the possible continued elements of your

investigation that might be continuing beyond this point?

SCHIFF:  Well, there`s a lot that we still have to learn about the conduct

of others.  So, we know I think very well what the president did that he

withheld this military assistance, that he withheld this meeting in the

White House to coerce Ukraine into doing investigations to help his re-

election campaign.  But how much involvement did the secretary of state

have in this?

We know he was in the loop from the documentary evidence and testimony of

Ambassador Sondland.  We know the vice president was made aware of the

conditionality of the military aid on these political investigations.  We

certainly know Mick Mulvaney was deeply involved in this.  There`s more to

learn about their role.

There`s also more to learn about when this whole scheme began because there

are indications it started far earlier than we might have expected, that

indeed some elements of this go back to when the prior president of

Ukraine, Poroshenko, was in office, efforts to get that president and his

attorney general, Lutsenko, to engage in his sham investigations to help

Donald Trump.
So, there are more things to learn.

But at the same time, one thing we know already without a doubt and that is

this president will do it again.  Indeed, he`s never stopped inviting

foreign interference in our election, and for that reason, we really cannot

delay.
We took up the report and voted for the report.  That goes now to

the Judiciary Committee which will have to weigh whether articles are

warranted.

O`DONNELL:  The big surprise for us who followed all the hearings is the

revelation of all these call records involving Rudy Giuliani, also

involving Devin Nunes, member of the committee.  That was – we didn`t know

that when we were watching the hearings.

When did the committee discover these phone records?

SCHIFF:  Well, you know, there are a number of records we`re able to obtain

and we obtain them over time, so I can`t pinpoint for you which records we

learned about when.  But nonetheless, these records show just the kind of

interaction between these different players in the midst of this scheme

where you have Rudy Giuliani calling the White House and calling the Office

of Management and Budget.

Now, why is the president`s attorney calling the Office of Management and

Budget which is holding up the military assistance?  You have Giuliani

obviously working with Parnas.  Parnas in touch with this reporter for “The

Hill” magazine that`s printing these false allegations about the Bidens,

about Ukrainians supposed interference in the last election.  And, of

course, you have the ranking member Mr. Nunes also in touch with these

players.

And so, we`re trying to identify the full scope of those who were complicit

in what the president were doing, and these records give a window of

insight into exactly that.

Quote
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/25/us/politics/giuliani-hunter-biden-romania.html
Giuliani Is Drawing Attention to Hunter Biden’s Work in Romania. But There’s a Problem.
Hunter Biden worked to help a Romanian executive facing corruption charges. But so did the former New York mayor — and a former F.B.I. director.
By Kenneth P. Vogel   Oct. 25, 2019

WASHINGTON — Rudolph W. Giuliani, President Trump’s personal lawyer, signaled this month that he planned to open a new front in his attacks against former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. — work done by Mr. Biden’s son Hunter Biden for a wealthy Romanian business executive facing corruption charges.

But there’s a problem with that strategy: Mr. Giuliani participated in an effort that would have helped the same executive, and was in fact recruited to do so by Louis J. Freeh, a former F.B.I. director who had been brought onto the matter by Hunter Biden.

In effect, Mr. Giuliani and Hunter Biden were on the same team, if not at the same time. And their work to help the business executive, along with that of Mr. Freeh, stood in contrast to efforts by the United States, including Vice President Biden while he was in office, to encourage anti-corruption efforts in Romania......

....Hunter Biden, who is a lawyer, was retained by the business executive, Gabriel Popoviciu, in 2015, while his father was vice president, to help try to fend off charges in Romania being pursued by anti-corruption prosecutors. In 2016, Mr. Popoviciu was convicted on charges related to a land deal in northern Bucharest, the Romanian capital.

Mr. Popoviciu appealed the decision.

Around the time of the 2016 conviction, Mr. Biden recruited Mr. Freeh to assist on the case, according to four people familiar with the effort. Mr. Freeh then retained Mr. Giuliani, who last year criticized Romania’s anti-corruption crackdown and urged amnesty to those who had been convicted, which could have included Mr. Popoviciu.....
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 12:34:23 AM by Tom Scully »

Online Tom Scully

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
« Reply #754 on: December 05, 2019, 12:09:13 AM »
If my last post, immediately before this one, is unconvincing in making the argument the Democratic leader and Speaker of the House Pelosi has not a moment to spare in coordinating the impeachment of President Trump for high crimes and misdemeanors because the integrity of free and fair elections is cast into doubt by this POTUS, here is today's reporting, indicating nothing will stop President Trump, short of removal from office.

The personal lawyer of the POTUS.:

Quote
Giuliani, Facing Scrutiny, Travels to Europe to Interview Ukrainians
President Trump’s personal lawyer has been in Budapest and Kyiv this week to talk with former Ukrainian prosecutors for a documentary series intended to debunk the impeachment case.

By Kenneth P. Vogel and Benjamin Novak
Dec. 4, 2019 Updated 2:32 p.m. ET

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/04/us/politics/giuliani-europe-impeachment.html

WASHINGTON — Even as Democrats intensified their scrutiny this week of Rudolph W. Giuliani’s role in the pressure campaign against the Ukrainian government that is at the heart of the impeachment inquiry, Mr. Giuliani has been in Europe continuing his efforts to shift the focus to purported wrongdoing by President Trump’s political rivals.

Mr. Giuliani, the president’s personal lawyer, met in Budapest on Tuesday with a former Ukrainian prosecutor, Yuriy Lutsenko, who has become a key figure in the impeachment inquiry. He then traveled to Kyiv on Wednesday seeking to meet with other former Ukrainian prosecutors whose claims have been embraced by Republicans, including Viktor Shokin and Kostiantyn H. Kulyk, according to people familiar with the effort.

The former prosecutors, who have faced allegations of corruption, all played some role in promoting claims about former Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr., a former United States ambassador to Ukraine and Ukrainians who disseminated damaging information about Mr. Trump’s campaign chairman, Paul Manafort, in 2016.


Those claims — some baseless and others with key disputed elements — have been the foundations of the effort by Mr. Trump and Mr. Giuliani to pressure the Ukrainian government to commit itself to investigations that would benefit Mr. Trump heading into his re-election campaign. That effort in turn has led to the impeachment proceedings in the House against the president.

Mr. Giuliani is using the trip, which has not been previously reported, to help prepare more episodes of a documentary series for a conservative television outlet promoting his pro-Trump, anti-impeachment narrative. His latest moves to advance the theories propounded by the prosecutors amount to an audacious effort to give the president’s supporters new material to undercut the House impeachment proceedings and an eventual Senate trial.

It was Mr. Giuliani’s earlier interactions with some of the same Ukrainian characters that set the stage for the impeachment inquiry in the first place, and also led to an investigation by federal prosecutors into whether Mr. Giuliani violated federal lobbying laws.

Mr. Giuliani’s trip has generated concern in some quarters of the State Department, coming amid scrutiny of his work with American diplomats earlier this year on the pressure campaign. His trip to Budapest and Kyiv suggests that he is unbowed by the intense scrutiny that has enveloped him and his associates, including revelations from the House Intelligence Committee on Tuesday of frequent calls from Mr. Giuliani to the White House and other figures in the pressure campaign at key moments this year.

The European trip was organized around the filming of a multipart television series featuring Mr. Giuliani that is being produced and aired by a conservative cable channel, One America News, or OAN.

The series, the first two installments of which have already aired, is being promoted as a Republican alternative to the impeachment hearings, including Ukrainian “witnesses” whom House Democrats running the inquiry declined to call. Some of the Ukrainians interviewed by Mr. Giuliani were sworn in on camera to “testify under oath” in a manner that the network claims “debunks the impeachment hoax.”

Mr. Giuliani was joined in Budapest by an OAN crew, including the reporter hosting the series, Chanel Rion, who conducted an interview in the Hungarian capital with Mr. Lutsenko, according to someone familiar with the interview.

Earlier this year, Mr. Lutsenko played a formative role in what became Mr. Trump’s pressure campaign, meeting with Mr. Giuliani in New York, where he made claims about a gas company that paid Mr. Biden’s son as a board member and the dissemination of a secret ledger listing slush payments from a Russia-aligned Ukrainian political party earmarked to Mr. Manafort and others. When The New York Times revealed the payments earmarked to Mr. Manafort in August 2016, it forced him to resign under pressure from the Trump campaign.

Mr. Lutsenko, whom Mr. Giuliani considered representing as a client, is facing allegations in Ukraine of abuse of power during his years as a prosecutor and was characterized by some American officials in the impeachment inquiry as untrustworthy. But his office moved to pursue investigations sought by Mr. Trump, and he was praised by the president as a “very good prosecutor” during a July 25 phone call with President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine.

Mr. Lutsenko discussed some of the subjects into which Mr. Trump sought investigations during his interview on Tuesday with Ms. Rion, said the person familiar with the interview.

Yuriy Lutsenko, a former Ukrainian prosecutor, moved to pursue investigations sought by Mr. Trump.Credit...Maxim Shipenkov/EPA, via Shutterstock
Also joining Mr. Giuliani and the OAN crew in Budapest were two former Ukrainian officials who have been supportive of Mr. Trump, Andrii Telizhenko and Andrii V. Artemenko.

The pair, along with a third former Ukrainian official, Mykhaylo Okhendovsky, recorded interviews at OAN’s studios in Washington late last month with Ms. Rion and Mr. Giuliani for an episode of the series that aired on Tuesday night.

The three Ukrainians questioned the Democrats’ case for impeachment during the episode. And they asserted that Mr. Trump had ample reason to ask Mr. Zelensky during their July 25 phone call to investigate the Bidens and whether Ukrainians acted improperly to damage Mr. Trump’s 2016 campaign.

The July 25 call helped trigger a whistle-blower complaint about the pressure wielded by Mr. Trump and Mr. Giuliani against Mr. Zelensky, and the whistle-blower complaint incited the impeachment inquiry into whether Mr. Trump abused his power for political gain.

In the OAN episode broadcast on Tuesday, Mr. Telizhenko reiterated his claims that, while working in the Ukrainian Embassy in Washington in 2016, he was instructed to help a Democratic operative gather incriminating information about Mr. Manafort. The Ukrainian Embassy has denied his account.

Mr. Artemenko, a former member of Parliament, and Mr. Okhendovsky, the former chairman of Ukraine’s Central Election Commission, both called into question the authenticity of the ledger listing payments to Mr. Manafort.

Ms. Rion falsely claimed on air that the Democratic operative connected to the Ukrainian Embassy, who has become a frequent target of House Republicans, provided the ledger to The Times. She declared that her interviews with Mr. Telizhenko, Mr. Artemenko and Mr. Okhendovsky “pulls the rug out from under” Democrats’ “central premise that Trump was wrong to ask about Joe Biden and the Democrat party’s starring role in Ukrainian corruption.”

Ms. Rion, Mr. Telizhenko, Mr. Artemenko and the White House did not respond to requests for comment.

Mr. Giuliani rejected any notion that it was audacious or risky for him to continue pursuing the Ukrainian mission, given the scrutiny of him by impeachment investigators and federal prosecutors in the Southern District of New York, or S.D.N.Y.

“If S.D.N.Y. leaks and Democrats’ threats stopped me, then I should find a new profession,” he wrote in a text message on Wednesday.

Asked about his interview with Mr. Lutsenko and efforts to interview other Ukrainian prosecutors, he responded that “like a good lawyer, I am gathering evidence to defend my client against the false charges being leveled against him” by the news media and Democrats.

He accused Representative Adam B. Schiff, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, which conducted impeachment hearings last month, of preventing testimony that could help Mr. Trump. “I am hoping that the evidence concealed by Schiff will be available to the public as they evaluate his outrageous, unconstitutional behavior.”

He did not respond to a question about whether he briefed Mr. Trump on his trip or his involvement in the OAN series, but he has said that he keeps Mr. Trump apprised of his efforts related to Ukraine.

In a news release Tuesday, OAN indicated that the third installment of its series with Mr. Giuliani was “currently in the works with OAN investigative staff outside the United States conducting key interviews at undisclosed safe houses.” It said the network would release additional details “upon return of OAN staff to U.S. soil.”

In Budapest, Mr. Giuliani had dinner on Tuesday night at the residence of the United States ambassador to Hungary, David B. Cornstein, a longtime friend and associate of both Mr. Trump and Mr. Giuliani.

A businessman who made a fortune operating jewelry counters inside department stores and worked in Mr. Giuliani’s New York mayoral administration, Mr. Cornstein has courted Viktor Orban, Hungary’s authoritarian prime minister, who in turn has provided fodder for Mr. Trump’s critical view of Ukraine.

A spokesman for the American Embassy in Budapest issued a statement describing the Tuesday night get-together as “a private dinner” hosted by the ambassador “with his longtime friend,” Mr. Giuliani, and Mr. Giuliani’s assistant. “No one else was present at the dinner.”

A reporter who showed up outside the ambassador’s residence during the dinner was turned away by a security guard.

Some State Department officials said they were tracking Mr. Giuliani’s continued efforts to engage the Ukrainians with concern. One department official, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss a politically sensitive topic, called it “shocking” that, in the face of scrutiny of his prior efforts related to Ukraine, Mr. Giuliani was traveling internationally in continued pursuit of information from Ukrainians.

One of the former prosecutors with whom Mr. Giuliani is seeking to meet in Kyiv is Mr. Shokin, who claims his ouster was forced by Mr. Biden to prevent investigations into the gas company paying Mr. Biden’s son Hunter Biden. Allies of the oligarch who owns the gas company say they welcomed Mr. Shokin’s firing, but not because he was actively investigating the company or the oligarch. Rather, they say, he was using the threat of prosecution to try to solicit bribes.

Another prosecutor with whom Mr. Giuliani was seeking to meet, Mr. Kulyk, had compiled a seven-page dossier in English accusing Hunter Biden of corruption, and had taken steps to pursue an investigation into Burisma Holdings, the gas company on whose board Hunter Biden served. Mr. Kulyk was fired recently by Mr. Zelensky’s new top prosecutor as part of an anti-corruption initiative.

OAN’s crew hopes to interview the former prosecutors as well, Ms. Rion suggested during the first episode of the series, which aired late last month.

Kenneth P. Vogel reported from Washington, and Benjamin Novak from Budapest.


Even if the core premise emboldening Giuliani to continue on the very course of actions that has triggered the impeachment inquiry of President Trump in the House is actually to assist Giuliani in gathering "evidence" to defend against his own anticipated indictment related to his activities he has not registered as a foreign agent to undertake, and the assertion by prosecutors of SDNY to the judge assigned to the Parnas prosecution, two days ago, that additional charges against Parnas are pending, the argument is only bolstered by this reporting that Ms. Pelosi is upholding her oath, as are committee chairs Schiff and Nadler, to "preserve and to protect the Constitution," from the high crimes and misdemeanors of this POTUS.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 12:22:47 AM by Tom Scully »

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
« Reply #754 on: December 05, 2019, 12:09:13 AM »

Offline Royell Storing

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
« Reply #755 on: December 05, 2019, 12:29:18 AM »
Royell, if you were in my shoes, would you be convinced of anything, influenced by your responses to my posts?

President Trump has deliberately plunged the U.S. into a Constitutional crisis by making it plain, beginning with his mid-year interview by George  Stephanopoulos  on ABC network that Mr. Trump would not rule out recipt of "dirt" from a foreign government if it would be deemed by Mr. Trump to provide him with advantage over a political rival. Trump contradicted testimony of the FBI director he appointed after firing Jim Comey. Director Wray had said the proper reaction upon receipt of an offer of "dirt" is to report such an interaction to the FBI to be investigated.

Royell, unlike you, opponents of Trump are not taken up into the cult of personality currently enabling his anti Constitutional oath breaking. I would no more trust Mr. Trump, considering his own known deeds and pronouncements, to know right from wrong, let alone trust him not to abuse the power of his office to taint "fair and free" elections, skewing the outcome to his perceived advantage.

Trump's comportment and assertions in that interview came shortly after a letter was drafted and signed by one thousand former prosecutors and other former DOJ employees bringing attention to as many as ten examples, at least five chargeable as felony obstruction of justice, allegedly committed by President Trump,
laid out in the Mueller report, intended by Trump to block the Mueller convened grand jury from obtaining the evidence necessary to determine if Trump and or his campaign and "fake fired/seperated" actors such as Manafort and Roger Stone had welcomed or cooperated with interference in the 2016 election by Putin government (Putin is the "Russian government") affiliated, encouraged. assigned, etc. persons of interest to the FBI and later, to the Mueller investigation.

IOW, Royell, Mr. Trump has cast into doubt the confidence in Constitutionally mandated fair and free elections because he has boldly and consistently demonstrated he will do anything to "win," i.e., to subvert the integrity of any election he perceives he holds an interest in.

These facts make it plain to democrats they have no choice but to attempt to hold Mr. Trump accountable, no matter the future political cost to them because their is no "ball game," when the POTUS breaks his oath to "preserve and to protect," the "stadium" in which the "ball game' is played, the Constitution of the U.S.

    If I were in your shoes I would keep the attention span of the audience in mind. You are putting everyone to sleep.

Online Tom Scully

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
« Reply #756 on: December 05, 2019, 12:56:28 AM »
    If I were in your shoes I would keep the attention span of the audience in mind. You are putting everyone to sleep.

Royell, you present yourself, considering and compared to verifiable facts, as severely dehydrated, if facts were water. A teaspoon full, in your condition, would be of no more effect on you as pissing into the ocean. I offer you a gallon, regrettably an entire municipal water supply seems required to "moisten" your parched belief system.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 12:59:51 AM by Tom Scully »

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
« Reply #756 on: December 05, 2019, 12:56:28 AM »

Offline Tim Nickerson

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
« Reply #757 on: December 05, 2019, 01:38:35 AM »
What the hell do you want? Did you want me to explain to you and Trump again how NATO works because you 2 don't seem to have a fricken clue?

Do you even know how NATO works? Your fair share is to devote 2% of your GDP to fund your own defense. There isn't an ante that everyone tosses into the pot.

For the year 2018, Canada's military expenditure amounted to 1.3% of GDP. That same year, the United States' military expenditure amounted to 3.2% of GDP. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1201927101072445441

 Walk:

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
« Reply #757 on: December 05, 2019, 01:38:35 AM »

Offline Royell Storing

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
« Reply #758 on: December 05, 2019, 01:52:02 AM »
Royell, you present yourself, considering and compared to verifiable facts, as severely dehydrated, if facts were water. A teaspoon full, in your condition, would be of no more effect on you as pissing into the ocean. I offer you a gallon, regrettably an entire municipal water supply seems required to "moisten" your parched belief system.

     The brevity above is progress. Now, present Positive positions instead of Personal attacks. I am here to help you Eliza.

Online Peter Kleinschmidt

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Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
« Reply #759 on: December 05, 2019, 02:19:22 AM »
Hey, Gas Bag! :

It is as if Trump or his alcoholic, (her second DUI charge was during her stint with the "Am-Carnage" campaign) ex-PR flack of the First Lady, current WH "Press" Secretary who has NEVER conducted a press briefing is laying the BS on thicker and thicker, up close and personal.

"I'll only hire the best people," promised the grifter 'n thief. Translation: "I'll deliberately hire other deadenders even more incompetent than I am and preference will be given to those obviously a threat to national security!"

Solomon's name appears in the House Intel Committee impeachment inquiry report 38 times, Nunes's name 45+ times.

Who are you? You cannot be serious. A broken clock is more reliable than 90 percent of what you include in your posts.

https://intelligence.house.gov/uploadedfiles/20191203_-_full_report___hpsci_impeachment_inquiry_-_20191203.pdf



Since you are lost I won't embarrass you but you can answer this one tricky question.
Do you spend most of the day talking to yourself?
Answer: All of the day and every day

Scully, at least I give you a little attention

JFK Assassination Forum

Re: Trump supporters and conspiracy theory
« Reply #759 on: December 05, 2019, 02:19:22 AM »

 

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