A Better Sequence (TM DVP)

[Colin Crow]

It is a huge stretch to interpret Mooney's statement as being anything other than the rifle rest. That he was somehow mentally making the distinction between boxes and cartons in a simple affidavit. Other detectives place the chicken in completely different places which is what brings you back to Alyea's statement.

"Mooney knew of no lunch sack by the third window"

 Not knowing about the lunch does not mean they weren't there. He did not know about the rifle until is was found. I doubt anyone cried out I found a lunch sack with chicken in it and a frito bag and next to it is a Dr Pepper pop bottle.

"In that time Gerald Hill came to observe the scene. He was photographed hanging ut out the next window along and reporter Tom Ewell told of him announcing about the unfinished chicken in the SN."

The rest of the observation by Ewell is that Hill was waving a piece of chicken. That never happened.

"Mooney knew of no lunch sack by the third window because it wasn’t there at that time. Obviously someone put the chicken piece inside the sack before Studebaker processed it."

This is where this train of thought really goes off the rails. Why would these people just assume it does or does not belong to the assassin? The news media obviously believed that to be the case because they were told that was the case by someone. Why would the detectives conspire to do this evidence tampering in full view of all the other detectives, news media, employees and witnesses searching the 6th floor? How would they possibly know the age of the bones or anything about their history? Why would they assume moving them a short distance would have any impact on the investigation?

I have no idea why you want to "muddy the waters" once again with Alyea, Jack. He was not deposed, he did not provide a motorised statement, he did not testify. He was not at the SN at the time of his discovery. He did not testify to the WC. His recollections are largely unsupported by many of those who described the scene to the WC.

Mooney did make the distinction between "cartons" of the cubby hole and "boxes" of the rifle rest. It is there in black and white? You assumed he was referring to the rest because the sentence followed on from description of the rest. The WC rightly clarified Mooney's position for the lunch sack and unfinished chicken. He was clear in that there was one piece and it was on a SN carton. Hill confirmed Mooney. Ewell remembered Hill yelling about the lunch to those below. The picture does not show him holding the lunch. So what, maybe it was taken before or after Hill held it. Maybe Ewell was mistaken about him holding it but he still remembered him yelling down from the window next to the SN. It was the police who first announced the chicken lunch in the SN......the cold hearted assassin waiting for JFK. How could the press know what was in the sack as it left the TSBD?

In any event, Williams was consistently deceptive about his movements just before the shots all the way to his WC testimony. He never admitted to it being his lunch until the Monday when asked by Day, who merely repeated the final resting position described by Studebaker.

I will agree that some police were influenced by the media/ superiors. Boyd is a good example. His description of 30-40 feet away is unsupported by anyone else at the scene at that time but reflects the final resting place of Studebaker.

[Colin Crow]

Do you participate in this thread without actually reading the posts of others?  John Iacolletti already answered your question;

I will only add BRW's own admission that he was on the 6th floor until a few minutes post shots.

Now, what evidence places Oswald in the SN any time after 12.00 ?

Martin, not "post" shots my friend.

[Colin Crow]

There is no such evidence.....   However, Lee told Captain Fritz, that he was in the first floor lunchroom at the time the President passed by the TSBD.  "At the time the President passed by" is a generalization, and ambiguous term.....It does not necessarily indicate a precise time.   We know that JFK's Lincoln  passed the TSBD at 12:30....And we Know that James (Junior) Jarman, and Harold Norman walked by the 1st floor lunchroom circa 12:26 / 12:27.   ( just 3 or 4 minutes before JFK passed by the TSBD,)... and Lee Oswald saw them as they walked by...... So there IS verification that Lee Oswald was NOT on the sixth floor at 12:27, which makes it unbelievable that he could have been on the 6th floor and firing a rifle out of a window at 12:30.

Walt, we know Norman claimed they left for the 5th floor when the motorcade reached Main. This was about 12.22pm. They had to walk about 200 feet and take the elevator to the 5th floor. I estimate the walk to be about 40 seconds and the elevator ride about 50 seconds.

They would have passed the domino room about 12.22:30 and arrive at the SE corner of the fifth floor about 12.25pm.

[Martin Weidmann]

Martin, not "post" shots my friend.

Indeed Colin, my bad... Don't know what I was thinking.

Error corrected.

Thanks.

[Martin Weidmann]

Walt, we know Norman claimed they left for the 5th floor when the motorcade reached Main. This was about 12.22pm. They had to walk about 200 feet and take the elevator to the 5th floor. I estimate the walk to be about 40 seconds and the elevator ride about 50 seconds.

They would have passed the domino room about 12.22:30 and arrive at the SE corner of the fifth floor about 12.25pm.

They would have passed the domino room about 12.22:30 and arrive at the SE corner of the fifth floor about 12.25pm.

That could very well be correct. And I think we can all agree that even if Oswald saw them walking towards the elevator at that time (as I think he did), it, by itself, would not provide him an alibi for the shooting at 12:30, as he could have made it to the 6th floor within the time frame.

If only there were no witnesses who saw activity in the SN window as early as approx. 12:15.

[Walt Cakebread]

Walt, we know Norman claimed they left for the 5th floor when the motorcade reached Main. This was about 12.22pm. They had to walk about 200 feet and take the elevator to the 5th floor. I estimate the walk to be about 40 seconds and the elevator ride about 50 seconds.

They would have passed the domino room about 12.22:30 and arrive at the SE corner of the fifth floor about 12.25pm.

Well you can take that up with Junior Jarman...He testified that he and Norman arrived on the 5th floor at 12:28....

[Colin Crow]

Well you can take that up with Junior Jarman...He testified that he and Norman arrived on the 5th floor at 12:28....

Mr. BALL - The sidewalk in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How long did you stand there?
Mr. JARMAN - Well, until about 12:20, between 12:20 and 12:25.

Mr. NORMAN. I remember seeing Mr. Truly and Mr. Campbell. They were standing somewhere behind us, not exactly behind us but they were back of us.
Mr. BALL. Anybody else?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, I believe Billy Lovelady, I think. He was sitting on the steps there.
Mr. BALL. He was?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes. That is about all the employees I remember seeing out there. There were more people out there.
Mr. BALL. Did you stay there?
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went beck in the building, James Jarman and I.

Police transcript.....

12.22 - 1 - Escort drop back, go real slow now approaching Main.

Representative FORD - This was about what time?
Mr. JARMAN - That was about 12:25 or 12:28.
Representative FORD - You got off the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.

If you use 12.28 it virtually leaves no time for Williams to leave the SN and meet them downstairs before the shots. Arrival at 12.25pm works fine for me.