A Better Sequence (TM DVP)

[Jack Nessan]

So now you don’t want to address Shelley......you want to abandon him too? Should we deal with Mooney? The guy Alyea claimed didn’t arrive until after the rifle. That guy. Do you believe he discovered the SN. Just trying to establish some commonality.

Alyea's later timeline recollection is seriously flawed. Alyea is an excellent example of his own "media influenced" observation. This is his original statement on 12/19/63.
"...I ran on upstairs with the Secret Service men. Then other units came in - the Riot Squad. I thought I was going to film a gun fight. They ran to the 4th floor and I went with them. Some of the other units went to the top of the building. They were conducting a systematic search. It boiled down to the sixth floor. After awhile it was obvious that the assassin was not in the building. They looked for the gun. I filmed 400 ft. of film of the Secret Service men looking for the assassin, climbing over boxes, over the rafters, and the actual finding of the gun. At the time it was suspected that the assassin had stayed quite a time there. There was a stack with a stack of chicken bones on it. There was a Dr. Pepper bottle which they dusted for fingerprints. The fingerprints were not Oswald's. You know how he piled the boxes up? The gun was found across the length of the room from where he fired. It was stashed between boxes. I had difficulty in filming. They did not want me closeto the window or to the gun. I asked permission to go to the window to film. A Secret Service man said, 'You are close enough.' I asked the Secret Service man to take pictures of the stashed gun. I set the camera but he wiggled the camera. I got a picture of them taking the gun from the hiding place and dusting it for fingerprints. After this the Crime Lab man, Captain Will Fritz - and I have footage of this - pulled the bolt back and a live round came out. They dusted the gun for fingerprints. This was my third camera. They wouldn't let me out of the building and they wouldn't let anyone else in. .....

This description of the search is similar to what the detectives stated. Alyea's later statements seem to be totally of his own making.

[Jack Nessan]

Did you say something, King straw man?

Actually, Richard states it best. There is a complete lack of evidence that BRW was ever in the SN, LHO not so much.

Knowing that shots were possibly or likely fired from that exact location, do you really think that BRW would have any incentive to say "yeah, I was there a few minutes prior to the shots"?

I don't know about BRW but I would not. It is clear he was reluctant to place himself on the 6th floor and with good reason . The fact he walked to the 5th floor before the assassination instead of being carried off the 6th floor after the assassination indicates he never had a chance encounter with LHO like Tippit.

[Jack Nessan]

Let’s go with Mooney.....if you want to bring up Shelley again or abandon him along with Alyea, up to you.

Here is Mooney's 11/23 report

COUNTY OF DALLAS
SHERIFF'S DEPARTMENT
SUPPLEMENTARY INVESTIGATION REPORT
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney, Dallas County Sheriff's Department.
Date: November 23 1963
I was standing in front of the Sheriff's office at 505 Main Street, Dallas, When President Kennedy and the motorcade passed by. Within a few seconds after he had passed me and the motorcade had turned the corner I heard a shot and I immediately started running towards the front of the motorcade and within seconds heard a second and a third shot. I started running across Houston Street and down across the lawn to the triple underpass and up the terrace to the railroad yards. I searched along with many other officers, this area, when Sheriff Bill Decker came up and told me and the Officers Sam Webster and Billy Joe Victory to surround the Texas School Book Depository building. As we approached the two big steel wire gates to the building dockat the back of the building on Elm Street side, we saw saw that the loading dock had locks on it and I then pulled the steel gates closed and requested of a citizen standing there to see that no-one came out or went in until I could get a uniformed officer there, which he did. Officers Webster, Victory, and myself took to the building. Officers Webster and Victory took the stairs and I told them I would take the freight elevator. At the time I got on the elevator two women who work in the building got on the elevator, saying they wanted to go to their offive. As the elevator started up, we went up one floor and the power to the elevator was cut off. I got out on the floor with theese women and looked around in their office and I then took to the stairs and went to the 6th floor, and Officers Webster and Victory went up to the 7th floor. I was the only person on the 6th floor when I searched it and was reasonably sure that there was no one else on this floor as I searched it and then criss-crossed it, seeing only stacks of cartons of books. I was at that time also checking for open windows and fire escapes. I found where someone had been using a skill saw in laying some flooring in one corner of this floor and I then went to the 7th floor and was assisting in searching it out and crawled into the attic opening and decided it was too dark and came down to order flash lights. I then went on back to the 6th floor and went direct to the far corner and then discovered a cubby hole which had been constructed out of cartons which protected it from sight and found where someone had been in an area of perhaps 2 feet surrounded by cardboard cartons of books. Inside this cubby hole affair was three more boxes so arranged as to provide what appeared to be a rest for a rifle. On one of these cartons was a half-eaten piece of chicken. The minute that I saw the expended shells on the floor, I hung my head out of the half opened window and signaled to Sheriff Bill Decker and Captain Will Fritz who were outside the building and advised them to send up the Crime Lab Officers at once that I had located the area from which the shots had been fired. At this time, Officers Webstr, Victory, and McCurley came over to this spot and we guarded this spot until Crime Lab Officers got upstairs within a matter of a few minutes. We then turned this area over to Captain Fritz and his officers for processing.
At this time I continued to search this 6th floor along with many other officers and within a few minutes, I heard Deputy Sheriff Eugene Boone holler out that he had found the rifle near the staircase between some rows of cartons.
We continued to search the building for a suspect....

Mooney says he noticed a half finished piece of chicken on top of a carton. He had talked of a cubby hole arrangement of cartons. He talked of some boxes that appeared to be part of a rifle rest in the sentence preceding the mention of the chicken. On one of "these cartons" may well relate to the those comprising the "cubby hole" and not the rifle rest boxes. You are assuming the latter option.

Mooney was called before the WC to testify and the from  following is clear that the chicken piece he saw was not on one of the three boxes against the window but one further north of the window. This was the reason witnesses a were asked to testify, to clarify their statements where required. He elaborated further by talking of the lunch sack also near the chicken piece.

Mr. BALL - Does that show any place where you saw the chicken bone?
Mr. MOONEY - If I recall correctly, the chicken bone could have been laying on this box or it might have been laying on this box right here.
Mr. BALL - Make a couple of marks there to indicate where possibly the chicken bone was lying.
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Make two "X's". You think there was a chicken bone on the top of either one of those two?
Mr. MOONEY - There was one of them partially eaten. And there was a little small paper poke.
Mr. BALL - By poke, you mean a paper sack?
Mr. MOONEY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Where was that?
Mr. MOONEY - Saw the chicken bone was laying here. The poke was laying about a foot away from it.
Mr. BALL - On the same carton?
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. In close relation to each other. But as to what was in the sack--it was kind of together, and I didn't open it. I didn't put my hands on it to open it. I only saw one piece of chicken.
Senator COOPER - How far was the chicken, the piece of chicken you saw, and the paper bag from the boxes near the window, and particularly the box that had the crease in it?
Mr. MOONEY - I would say they might have been 5 feet or something like that. He wouldn't have had to leave the location. He could just maybe take one step and lay it over there, if he was the one that put it there.
Senator COOPER - You mean if someone had been standing near the box with the crease in it?
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.
Senator COOPER - It would have been that approximate distance to the chicken leg and paper bag?
Mr. MOONEY - Sir?
Senator COOPER - And the paper bag you spoke of?
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir; they were in close relation to each other, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - How big a bag was it?
Mr. MOONEY - Well, as to the number--these bags are numbered, I understand. But it was--I don't know what the number you would call it, but it didn't stand more than that high.
Mr. BALL - About 12 inches?
Mr. MOONEY - About 8 to 10 inches, at the most.
Mr. BALL - What color was the bag?
Mr. MOONEY - It was brown. Just a regular paper bag. Just as a grocery store uses for their produce and what-have-you.
Mr. BALL - Did you see any soda pop?
Mr. MOONEY - No, sir; I did not.
Mr. BALL - Did you see a paper bag at any other window?
Mr. MOONEY - No, sir; I didn't.
Mr. BALL - Any other chicken bones?
Mr. MOONEY - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you see a Dr. Pepper bottle any place?
Mr. MOONEY - No, sir; except in the picture.
Mr. BALL - You didn't see it?
Mr. MOONEY - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - When you say you have seen the picture, I will show you the picture, and let me see if that is the one you mean you have seen. That is Commission 484. This picture has been shown to you, hasn't it?
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - I showed you that.
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - And you did not see that two-wheel truck?
Mr. MOONEY - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - You did not see the Dr. Pepper bottle?
Mr. MOONEY - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - You didn't see a paper sack anywhere near a two-wheel truck or a Dr. Pepper bottle?
Mr. MOONEY - No, sir

Senator COOPER - May I ask---did you change the position of the shells which you have identified?
Mr. MOONEY - No, sir; I didn't have my hands on them.
Senator COOPER - Or the bag, or chicken leg?
Mr. MOONEY - No, sir.

To summarise Mooney's testimony regarding the lunch. He clarified that he saw just one piece of chicken and it was a half eaten piece lying on a carton north of, and within 5 feet of the boxes against the window (and the shells). He saw a paper bag about one foot from the unfinished chicken piece. He did not see a drink bottle or anything near the two wheeler. He did not move the lunch.

At no time did he suggest there was more than one piece of chicken on the sixth floor. He stayed until the arrival of Fritz and after the departure of Gerald Hill.

Who you want to go with next? Montgomery?

No, Mooney is describing the rifle rest in the 11/23 statement. In his WC testimony he is describing  a completely different location. Both are a completely different locations than described by the other detectives and witnesses.  Maybe Alyea's "media influence" ?

Mooney 11/23:   "Inside this cubby hole affair was three more boxes so arranged as to provide what appeared to be a rest for a rifle On one of these cartons was a half-eaten piece of chicken."

Mooney, WC testimony:
 Mr. BALL - Tell us where you found it?
Mr. MOONEY - It would be laying over on the top of these other boxes. This here is kind of blurred.

Det. Mooney  stated did not know about BRW lunch by the third window.

Mr. BALL - You didn't see a paper sack anywhere near a two-wheel truck or a Dr. Pepper bottle?
Mr. MOONEY - No, sir; in my running around up there, I didn't observe it. Possibly it was there. I am sure it was But I didn't check it.

BRW stated he left his lunch there where eventually it was photographed and also referenced by Det. Boyd, "40 feet to the west" of the SN.

[Colin Crow]

Alyea's later timeline recollection is seriously flawed. Alyea is an excellent example of his own "media influenced" observation. This is his original statement on 12/19/63.
"...I ran on upstairs with the Secret Service men. Then other units came in - the Riot Squad. I thought I was going to film a gun fight. They ran to the 4th floor and I went with them. Some of the other units went to the top of the building. They were conducting a systematic search. It boiled down to the sixth floor. After awhile it was obvious that the assassin was not in the building. They looked for the gun. I filmed 400 ft. of film of the Secret Service men looking for the assassin, climbing over boxes, over the rafters, and the actual finding of the gun. At the time it was suspected that the assassin had stayed quite a time there. There was a stack with a stack of chicken bones on it. There was a Dr. Pepper bottle which they dusted for fingerprints. The fingerprints were not Oswald's. You know how he piled the boxes up? The gun was found across the length of the room from where he fired. It was stashed between boxes. I had difficulty in filming. They did not want me closeto the window or to the gun. I asked permission to go to the window to film. A Secret Service man said, 'You are close enough.' I asked the Secret Service man to take pictures of the stashed gun. I set the camera but he wiggled the camera. I got a picture of them taking the gun from the hiding place and dusting it for fingerprints. After this the Crime Lab man, Captain Will Fritz - and I have footage of this - pulled the bolt back and a live round came out. They dusted the gun for fingerprints. This was my third camera. They wouldn't let me out of the building and they wouldn't let anyone else in. .....

This description of the search is similar to what the detectives stated. Alyea's later statements seem to be totally of his own making.

Sounds just like one would expect. He went to the rifle....then came back to the bottle and lunch sack. This was where Studebaker "found it" after it had been moved. Note bones in the sack. Just as we would expect by 2pm.

[Colin Crow]

Actually, Richard states it best. There is a complete lack of evidence that BRW was ever in the SN, LHO not so much.

Knowing that shots were possibly or likely fired from that exact location, do you really think that BRW would have any incentive to say "yeah, I was there a few minutes prior to the shots"?

I don't know about BRW but I would not. It is clear he was reluctant to place himself on the 6th floor and with good reason . The fact he walked to the 5th floor before the assassination instead of being carried off the 6th floor after the assassination indicates he never had a chance encounter with LHO like Tippit.

I suspect you are right Jack. BRW did not have an encounter with LHO on the 6th floor.

[Colin Crow]

No, Mooney is describing the rifle rest in the 11/23 statement. In his WC testimony he is describing  a completely different location. Both are a completely different locations than described by the other detectives and witnesses.  Maybe Alyea's "media influence" ?

Mooney 11/23:   "Inside this cubby hole affair was three more boxes so arranged as to provide what appeared to be a rest for a rifle On one of these cartons was a half-eaten piece of chicken."

Mooney, WC testimony:
 Mr. BALL - Tell us where you found it?
Mr. MOONEY - It would be laying over on the top of these other boxes. This here is kind of blurred.

Det. Mooney  stated did not know about BRW lunch by the third window.

Mr. BALL - You didn't see a paper sack anywhere near a two-wheel truck or a Dr. Pepper bottle?
Mr. MOONEY - No, sir; in my running around up there, I didn't observe it. Possibly it was there. I am sure it was But I didn't check it.

BRW stated he left his lunch there where eventually it was photographed and also referenced by Det. Boyd, "40 feet to the west" of the SN.

No, Mooney was describing what became known as the snipers nest.....the "cubby hole" constructed of cartons.

I then went on back to the 6th floor and went direct to the far corner and then discovered a cubby hole which had been constructed out of cartons which protected it from sight and found where someone had been in an area of perhaps 2 feet surrounded by cardboard cartons of books. Inside this cubby hole affair was three more boxes so arranged as to provide what appeared to be a rest for a rifle. On one of these cartons was a half-eaten piece of chicken.

He distinguishes between cartons that were used to construct the "cubby hole" and boxes for the rifle rest. He distinctly clarified this in his WC testimony. The chicken and lunch sack was no more than 5 feet from the boxes. He was in the SN area from the time he found it until after Fritz arrived. Probably 10 minutes or so. In that time Gerald Hill came to observe the scene. He was photographed hanging ut out the next window along and reporter Tom Ewell told of him announcing about the unfinished chicken in the SN. A number of other officers who observed the SN prior to the arrival of Fritz provided reports consistent with the lunch remnants in the SN.

Mooney knew of no lunch sack by the third window because it wasn’t there at that time. Obviously someone put the chicken piece inside the sack before Studebaker processed it.

BRW said nothing of his lunch, position or how it was "discovered" by Studebaker, until Day asked the employees "who left their chicken bones in a sack by the two wheeler" on Monday 25th. He was influenced by Day, who was told of the lunch by Studebaker.

Who thinks BRW sat behind a closed window on the 6th floor for almost 15 minutes waiting to see the President? Yet as soon as he went down stairs he decided that the window should be opened.

I suggest Boyd is a prime candidate for your media influenced/talking to others chinese whispers. At the time he was present the chicken lunch was not 30-40 feet away.

[John Iacoletti]

LOL.  You are equating the evidence of BRW's and Oswald's presence in the SN. Oswald's prints were found on the SN boxes and fired bullet casings from his rifle are by the window.

“His rifle”. LOL.