JFK from Air Force 1 to Bethesda by helicopter

[Martin Weidmann]

Roy Kellerman was there:

At 2:47 p.m., USAF 26000 was airborne for Washington, D.C., arriving at Andrews Air Force Base at 5:58 p.m., est.

While airborne, arrangements were made for a Naval ambulance from the New Naval Medical Center at Bethesda to be available at the airport. Upon landing we removed the casket, placed it into the ambulance. At the airport, Chief Rowley advised me that two FBI agents, Francis O'Neill, Jr., and James Siebert, had been assigned to this case and to allow them into the morgue at the U.S. Naval Hospital. I told Chief Rowley the cars would arrive at Andrews at about 8 p.m., and suggested he assign field agents to them to completely go over them for any evidence that might be found.

Mrs. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy and General McHugh sat in the rear of the ambulance- SAs Greer, Landis and myself with Dr. Burkley rode in the front to Bethesda, with a police escort. The body was immediately taken to the morgue and the family was assigned rooms in the Towers of the Center. Hill and Landis remained with Mrs. Kennedy in her quarters and William Greer and I remained in the morgue and viewed the autopsy examinations which were performed by Vice Admiral Gallway, Commanding Officer, NNMC, Chief Pathologist Cdr. James Humes, Lt. Col. Pierre A. Finck who is Chief, Military Environmental Pathology Division and Chief of Wound Ballistics, Pathology Branch, and J. Thornton Boswell, Cdr. Medical Corps, USN, together with the Naval Medical Staff. SA O'Leary was also in the morgue briefly. Agents O'Neill and Siebert were present.

LINK: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/sa-kelle.htm

At best, that only proves that the casket was transported by hearse to Bethesda. He assumed that the body was in it. Why would he think otherwise?

The problem is that Paul O'Connor and others are on record saying that they removed Kennedy's body in a body bag from a shipping casket.

[Gerry Down]

The problem is that Paul O'Connor and others are on record saying that they removed Kennedy's body in a body bag from a shipping casket.

The handles were broken off the casket. Maybe this is why there was confusion.

[Michael Walton]

Oh god, why do people keep thinking this and continue to talk about it? Why do plausibility and real-world events constantly get thrown out the window for some ridiculous fairy tale that Lifton cooked up and made a million bucks on?

How in the world would anyone know that early in the game what could possibly have happened in Dallas to start some stirring of stealing the body and performing all manner of body alterations? They had absolutely NO IDEA at that point what happened on Elm Street. None. So how in the world would they even know what to alter? And yet, to this day goofy people STILL believe goofy stories like the body being thrown down into the cargo hold and whisked away on a helicopter in full view of the widow, his brother and live TV cameras and TV lights. Whisked away so mad doctors with scalpels at the ready did "all manner" of body alterations.

Why? Why do people still believe this crap?

[Martin Weidmann]

The handles were broken off the casket. Maybe this is why there was confusion.

The only confusion seems to be in your mind.

How can Paul O'Connor and others remove Kennedy's body from a shipping casket, if the body was in the casket delivered by the hearse that also carried Jackie and Robert Kennedy?

[Martin Weidmann]

Oh god, why do people keep thinking this and continue to talk about it? Why do plausibility and real-world events constantly get thrown out the window for some ridiculous fairy tale that Lifton cooked up and made a million bucks on?

How in the world would anyone know that early in the game what could possibly have happened in Dallas to start some stirring of stealing the body and performing all manner of body alterations? They had absolutely NO IDEA at that point what happened on Elm Street. None. So how in the world would they even know what to alter? And yet, to this day goofy people STILL believe goofy stories like the body being thrown down into the cargo hold and whisked away on a helicopter in full view of the widow, his brother and live TV cameras and TV lights. Whisked away so mad doctors with scalpels at the ready did "all manner" of body alterations.

Why? Why do people still believe this crap?

Why do plausibility and real-world events constantly get thrown out the window for some ridiculous fairy tale

What plausible and real-world event are you talking about?

How in the world would anyone know that early in the game what could possibly have happened in Dallas to start some stirring of stealing the body and performing all manner of body alterations? They had absolutely NO IDEA at that point what happened on Elm Street. None. So how in the world would they even know what to alter?

What makes you say that they had no idea what happened on Elm Street?

And yet, to this day goofy people STILL believe goofy stories like the body being thrown down into the cargo hold and whisked away on a helicopter in full view of the widow, his brother and live TV cameras and TV lights. Whisked away so mad doctors with scalpels at the ready did "all manner" of body alterations.

Really? Is that what "goofy" people believe? Seems to me you prefer to make it easy on yourself to dismiss whatever evidence you don't like. Sure, Lifton's conclusion that the body must have been removed from the casket on the plane has it's problems, but one thing is for sure: Something did happen with the body somewhere!

How else can you explain that Paul O'Connor and others removed Kennedy's body from a shipping casket? How do you explain that Jerrol Custer told the ARRB that he was taking X-rays of Kennedy's body to be developed when he saw Jacky and Robert Kennedy arrive? Are they all lying? Are the people who brought in and saw the shipping casket lying? And if they are, why would they wait 15 years before they told their story to the HSCA? The people Lifton presents to us in his book and on video never made a penny from what they told him. They had nothing to gain and everything to lose, so why would all those men lie and tell a story that combined justified on only one conclusion?

Why? Why do people still believe this crap?

Why do you think it's crap?

Is it that you just don't want to believe it, that you can't wrap your head around a possibility you don't like, or do you actually have something more to bring to the discussion than just a biased opinion? Remember, "I don't believe it could have happened that way, so it didn't happen that way" isn't a particularly persuasive argument!

[Michael Walton]

For goodness sake, don't play coy here, Martin. Even as late as 11/27, the newspapers were reporting him turning almost completely around to take the shot in the temple. That day, the doctors were saying a shot in the temple. The cops were sending officers up to the overpass, then to the TSBD. But they still didn't know what happened. Even at the autopsy they couldn't figure out the direction of the shots. Only when the lawyers got a hold of things did they start formulating the official story, that Oswald alone acted and fired the shots from behind.

So tell us here - how would they have known what parts of the body to alter before the official autopsy happened when they didn't even know or have the full details yet? You seem to think that the bevy of doctors with scalpels at the ready would magically be able to cut into the head to "alter" things. It's a dumb theory, Martin.

There were plenty of Kennedy loyalists on the plane that day, Martin, who would have started a fight to have allowed some evil conspirator to open up the casket and throw it down into the cargo hold. And by the way, Martin, who was that evil conspirator on the plane who took the body out? Who, Martin? You say Dave's theory is problematic - it's even worst than that. It's ridiculous because it's a flight of fancy and never happened.



I advise you to read these links:

http://www.patspeer.com/yourpagestitle

and

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter1b%3Aclearingthingsup

[Martin Weidmann]

For goodness sake, don't play coy here, Martin. Even as late as 11/27, the newspapers were reporting him turning almost completely around to take the shot in the temple. That day, the doctors were saying a shot in the temple. The cops were sending officers up to the overpass, then to the TSBD. But they still didn't know what happened. Even at the autopsy they couldn't figure out the direction of the shots. Only when the lawyers got a hold of things did they start formulating the official story, that Oswald alone acted and fired the shots from behind.

So tell us here - how would they have known what parts of the body to alter before the official autopsy happened when they didn't even know or have the full details yet? You seem to think that the bevy of doctors with scalpels at the ready would magically be able to cut into the head to "alter" things. It's a dumb theory, Martin.

There were plenty of Kennedy loyalists on the plane that day, Martin, who would have started a fight to have allowed some evil conspirator to open up the casket and throw it down into the cargo hold. And by the way, Martin, who was that evil conspirator on the plane who took the body out? Who, Martin? You say Dave's theory is problematic - it's even worst than that. It's ridiculous because it's a flight of fancy and never happened.



I advise you to read these links:

http://www.patspeer.com/yourpagestitle

and

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter1b%3Aclearingthingsup

For goodness sake, don't play coy here, Martin.

Am I?

Even as late as 11/27, the newspapers were reporting him turning almost completely around to take the shot in the temple. That day, the doctors were saying a shot in the temple. The cops were sending officers up to the overpass, then to the TSBD. But they still didn't know what happened.

Who are "they"?

Even at the autopsy they couldn't figure out the direction of the shots.

Really? I seem to recall autopsy photos of a bullet hole in Kennedy's back and head? The only thing they missed was the throat wound, which the doctors in Dallas said it was a wound of entry but the autopsy doctors nevertheless concluded that it was an exit wound. And they made that determination based on a phone call and an assumption rather than a proper examination. Go figure....

Only when the lawyers got a hold of things did they start formulating the official story, that Oswald alone acted and fired the shots from behind.

What lawyers and what "things" did they get hold of? Be precise!

So tell us here - how would they have known what parts of the body to alter before the official autopsy happened when they didn't even know or have the full details yet?

You keep saying that, but you really need to explain what "full details" were missing. An autopsy doctor doesn't need to know about the crime scene and the location(s) of victim(s) and shooter(s). All an autopsy doctor needs to do is examine the body and determine where the shots came from. An autopsy doctor is not a crime scene investigator. If - and this is hypothetical - the instruction was that the wounds on the body had to reflect shots from the back, the doctors would have had all the information they needed.

You seem to think that the bevy of doctors with scalpels at the ready would magically be able to cut into the head to "alter" things. It's a dumb theory, Martin.

It's also a theory that lives in your head only. I never said anything of the kind, so why don't you stop making assumptions and provide some facts instead.

There were plenty of Kennedy loyalists on the plane that day, Martin, who would have started a fight to have allowed some evil conspirator to open up the casket and throw it down into the cargo hold. And by the way, Martin, who was that evil conspirator on the plane who took the body out? Who, Martin?

All you seem to be able to do is ask questions to which I couldn't possibly have the answers. At the same time you seem also unable to provide an answer to my question about the HSCA testimony of Paul O'Connor, Jerrol Custer and others. Why is that? Is it easier to dismiss the theory about what could have happened on the plane and ignore the rest? Is that it?

You say Dave's theory is problematic - it's even worst than that. It's ridiculous because it's a flight of fancy and never happened.

Let's get one thing straight; You were not there and don't have a clue about what happened or not! All you've got is an opinion. Now, that's fine, but when you voice that opinion and present it as fact you should really try to make it more persuasive by - for instance - also explaining how and why Kennedy's body ended up in a body bag and in a shipping casket.

Now, before I confuse you any further. I do indeed consider Lifton's theory about a body snatch on the plane somewhat problematic and it may well be that it never happened. But if that's true, there needs to be another explanantion for how Kennedy's body could leave Dallas in a ornamental casket and arrive at Bethesda in a grey shipping casket. So, what happened there?

I advise you to read these links:

http://www.patspeer.com/yourpagestitle

and

http://www.patspeer.com/chapter1b%3Aclearingthingsup

Thanks for the advise. Now why don't you tell me what you have taken away from Pat Speer's writings?