First shot reactions

[Charles Collins]

She did not time it with a stopwatch. True.  But if she thought it was somewhat longer than one or two, that fits with what about 25 other witnesses said.  If it was one or two seconds, it conflicts with those 25 witnesses. 

I raised this in some discussions on the newsgroup in 2007 about the time of the first shot.  Gary Mack replied with this email in which he stated:

Andrew,

I've known Tina Towner since 1978 and my memory has been that she said
the first shot came just a second or two after she stopped filming.
However, in a March 30, 1996 oral history, Tina said it was four to six
seconds.  So either I have misremembered, which is possible, or her
memory has changed.

What's important is that she stopped filming some seconds before the
shots were fired.  That eliminates the early shot theory held by Max and
Johann.

....

Gary Mack

(the last two paragraphs omitted deal with Croft's statement to Richard Trask that after taking his z162 photo he had time to rewind his camera and run down the street and take another photo which he said was taken at the moment of the first shot. Unfortunately, it turned out blank.)

I have not seen Tina Towner's  March 30, 1996 oral history which is in the Sixth Floor Museum but I am assuming that Gary Mack's account of what she says is accurate.  The 4 to 6 seconds also fits with what she told Trask - that she was getting ready to leave after she stopped filming when she heard the first shot.

Here is what Tina said in an interview for Global TV Canada for the 50th anniversary of the assassination.

“My recollection is good. It does seem like another life. In some respects it seems like just yesterday. When I say it’s been 50-years, I’m not old enough to be 50-years ago if I was there. But umm, it’s umm, the last few years I spent a lot of time thinking about it because I started writing everything down. I have a lot of files that I kept over the years from when it happened. And so, over the past few years I’ve been looking through the files about conversations and events. And it started becoming fresh again. Almost like reading it for the first time.”

Tina began working on her book in 2009. I plan to purchase the 1996 oral history transcript. I will see what she said and let you know.

[Andrew Mason]

LOL. It only "conflicts" with your wacky interpretation of them.

Tina Towner stopped filming about 1 second before Zapruder re-started filming.  A second after Zapruder restarted filiming (around z150) the VP car and VP security car are both pointing toward the TSBD with the VP followup car somewhere on Houston approaching the intersection. So if that is where the first shot occurred, these witnesses are wrong:

In the VP car (4th in motorcade):
Hurchel Jacks (driver), WC 18 H 801, said "My car had just straightened up from making the left hand turn" when the first shot rang out.
SA Rufus Youngblood, WC 18 H 767, said that the VP car had turned the corner and he observed grassy area to his right before first shot was heard.
Vice-President Lyndon Johnson WC 5 H 562: said he heard the first shot "after we had proceeded a short way down Elm Street"
Lady Bird Johnson, WC 5 H 565: said "we were rounding a curve and going down a hill" when the first shot was heard.
Senator Ralph Yarborough WC 7 H 440: "as the motorcade went down the slope of Elm Street a rifle shot was heard by me".
Occupants of the VP follow-up car (5th in motorcade) described the moment of the first shot:
Joe Rich. (driver), WC 18 H 800: "I was staying right on his bumper" (of the VP car). "we turned off Houston Street onto Elm Street"
Clifton Carter, WC 7 H 474: "our car had just made the lefthand turn off Houston onto Elm Street and
was right along side of the Texas School Book Depository Building"
SA Kivett, WC 8 H 778: "The motorcade was heading slightly downhill toward an underpass. As the
motorcade was approximately 1/3 of the way to the underpass.."
SA Johns, WC 18 H 764: "at this time were were on a slight downhill curve to the right"
SA Taylor, (18 H 782): "our automobile had just turned a corner"

Occupants of Mayor Cabell’s car (6th in motorcade) recalled hearing the first shot as follows:
Milton Wright (driver), WC18 H 802: "had just turned onto Elm Street and approximately 30 feet from the intersection"
Earle Cabell, WC 7 H 479, said that he was turned around talking to Rep. Roberts and Mrs. Cabell with the TSBD situated to his back.
Mrs. Cabell, WC 7 H 486, "we were making the turn" ... "I was directly facing [the TSBD]"

In addition, there were at least 20 witnesses who said that JFK reacted to the first shot in a distinct manner that is quite inconsistent with smiling and waving for 2-3 seconds. In addition, you have Hughes, Betzner and Willis and several witnesses along Elm who put the President much farther along Elm than he was at z150.

That's not "Croft's statement to Richard Trask". That's from a characterization in an FBI AirTel about Bronson. It may be accurate; it may not be. Croft in 1988 could not confirm the AirTel: "I really don't know how they came up with what they did so fast. They put things together awful quick."

Neither Croft nor the FBI claimed the blank slide "was taken at the moment of the first shot." Trask terms it: "The report further states that Croft said that he believed his last picture was taken simultaneously with the shot that killed the President." There's a case to be made that Croft's talking about the head shot. But that would mean a shot showing Kennedy twice as far away as he was to Willis at Z137, when Willis took his fifth slide.

Trask interviewed Croft and wrote a whole chapter about him. While he also uncovered an FBI document of an interview with Croft and uses a quote from that, it is inconceivable that Trask would not have confirmed with Croft those details when, for example at p.225 Trask, says that Croft quickly wound his camera as the car went by and took his fourth photo as he heard a shot.  The bottom line is that Trask confirms that Croft took his z162 photo a perceptible amount of time before any shot was heard.

Dale K. Myers cites this email from Gary Mack dated November 21, 2011. "Tina has always said, and we've been good friends since 1978, the first shot came right after she stopped filming. She has always believed the first shot came within a second or two."

You are assuming that Myers gave a complete quote from Gary Mack's email. It is apparent that he omitted the reference that Mack would have given to the 1996 oral history statement.

So add that to what she said in her book: "...but there was not enough time before the first gunshot sounded—only a second or two, if that, after I stopped filming."

And a 2013 Greensville, Texas newspaper account:

    "She said she heard the first shots "about two seconds" after she stopped filming." ( Link )

Not sure how much this influenced her story:

    "I’m told it was about two seconds (before) the first gun shot." ( Link )

She doesn't dispute it. Now you work on her at Facebook to say it could have been as much as four seconds.

She merely said: "Now I was beginning to leave when I heard the sky fall in."

Does she describe putting her camera away in its case, or something?

We need to determine why she has given a range of 1 to 6 seconds as the delay between her end of filming and the first shot. Her recollection that she was getting ready to leave when she heard the first shot suggests that the delay was closer to 6 seconds than to 1. Four seconds would put the first shot at about z191.

[Peter Kleinschmidt]

Additionally, notice the contrast in the facial expressions in the two photographs below:

Willis took this photo near the beginning of the clip posted in the first post above. Everyone is smiling and in contact with the crowd.




Croft took this photo closer to the end of the clip in the original post. Both John Connally and Jackie have quizzical expressions. It appears to me that they are looking around and wondering what that loud noise they just heard was.

But no one in the crowd is showing any look of concern. BTW Look at your 2nd photo,  see how JFK is sitting? No way a bullet from the 6th story window went into his back and came out his throat

[Brian Roselle]

Andrew,

I admire your diligent effort to make the raw testimony work, but I struggled with raw testimony like this when trying to accurately nail down first shot timing (like the Willis photos issue).

It may be that a difference in 2 shot (which included slumping and/or hands going up to throat) or 3 shot testimonies would contribute to a significant difference in what is being interpreted, but in any case I think we all struggle with two sources of error or variability in testimony in general. 1) errors in how folks remembered what happened during the chaotic events and how they subsequently recalled it in their testimony and 2) (and this may be an equally large source of error), how researchers interpret what they think the testimony meant or what they thought the individuals meant.

So an example along these lines in your supporting testimonies are the drivers of cars #4 and #6.

#4 Hurchel Jacks (driver), WC 18 H 801, said "My car had just straightened up from making the left hand turn" when the first shot rang out.
#6 Milton Wright (driver), WC18 H 802: "had just turned onto Elm Street and approximately 30 feet from the intersection"

Their testimonies say that they were effectively in the same place at the same time.  That conclusion is obviously way wrong. Is it error 1) or 2) above? (or both)

I struggled with this dynamic and it led me to believe that additional analysis were ultimately necessary to clarify the situation.

[Charles Collins]

But no one in the crowd is showing any look of concern. BTW Look at your 2nd photo,  see how JFK is sitting? No way a bullet from the 6th story window went into his back and came out his throat

The crowd is focused on the President and motorcade. Very few of them recognized the first shot as a rifle shot. Even JFK quickly recovered from the noise (after a brief look towards Jackie) and then returned looking to his right and began waving to the crowd again. Look closely at his facial expressions on the Zapruder clip as he turns back to his right. His look of concern quickly returns to a smile as he re-engages with the crowd.

The first shot missed. So I agree with your assessment of the second photo.

[Andrew Mason]

Andrew,

I admire your diligent effort to make the raw testimony work, but I struggled with raw testimony like this when trying to accurately nail down first shot timing (like the Willis photos issue).

It may be that a difference in 2 shot (which included slumping and/or hands going up to throat) or 3 shot testimonies would contribute to a significant difference in what is being interpreted, but in any case I think we all struggle with two sources of error or variability in testimony in general. 1) errors in how folks remembered what happened during the chaotic events and how they subsequently recalled it in their testimony and 2) (and this may be an equally large source of error), how researchers interpret what they think the testimony meant or what they thought the individuals meanto.

While witnesses are not video recorders, they generally don't fabricate entire events. They will often differ on small details but will generally agree on the salient points. And if a witness reports an event that did not occur, other witnesses will not independently report the same thing. That simply does not happen.

 So, while one can try to explain away an individual witness recollection on such grounds as you suggest, the only way multiple witnesses can report observing an event that did not occur is if they are not independent.

So an example along these lines in your supporting testimonies are the drivers of cars #4 and #6.

#4 Hurchel Jacks (driver), WC 18 H 801, said "My car had just straightened up from making the left hand turn" when the first shot rang out.
#6 Milton Wright (driver), WC18 H 802: "had just turned onto Elm Street and approximately 30 feet from the intersection"

Their testimonies say that they were effectively in the same place at the same time.  That conclusion is obviously way wrong. Is it error 1) or 2) above? (or both)

The security car was only about 5 feet behind the VP car. Both were regular cars not extended limos. So Wright was less than 25 feet behind Jacks. Jacks said that he just straightened up after completing the turn onto Elm. Wright did not say that. He said he had just turned onto Elm. He did not say he had straightened up.  That turn extends past the intersection as Elm curves for some distance in front of the TSBD before the driver (Wright) could straighten up.

[Peter Kleinschmidt]

The crowd is focused on the President and motorcade. Very few of them recognized the first shot as a rifle shot. Even JFK quickly recovered from the noise (after a brief look towards Jackie) and then returned looking to his right and began waving to the crowd again. Look closely at his facial expressions on the Zapruder clip as he turns back to his right. His look of concern quickly returns to a smile as he re-engages with the crowd.

The first shot missed. So I agree with your assessment of the second photo.

Exactly, the crowd is focused on the motorcade but that does not make them immune to gunfire. When the first shot is a miss is it only louder inside an open-top car or from where it originated