JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
How Good Are People at Counting?
Andrew Mason:
--- Quote from: Jerry Organ on February 10, 2018, 11:18:40 PM ---Three (if that's what it was) loud noises became increasing "salient" as the sounds unfolded. The first few loud noises weren't "salient" to everyone.
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On what evidence do you base that statement? Name one witness who did not notice the first shot - or any of the shots. Only a few identified it as a rifle shot, but they could not help but hear that "horrible, ear-shattering noise" (as Mary Woodward described it).
--- Quote ---They were also in a distraction setting with peak concentration on the motorcade at the time of the first shot.
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On what evidence do you base that statement? Name one witness who "dismissed" the first loud noise from their mind. Do you think that hearing another similar noise 4 seconds later that they could not remember having heard the first?
--- Quote ---While it's true they could not fail to hear three shots (if there were, in fact, three shots), it doesn't mean it was stored in memory equally. For some of the witnesses, their perception and retention of initial events (some termed the first shot as a backfire or firecracker) could be affected by a greater concentration on the latter shots and things occurring visually up to and including the shock of the head shot and the dramatic Jackie/Clint potential tragedy.
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And if you actually had evidence that this occurred at all, let alone that it affected the vast majority of witnesses, I could take it seriously. But as it is, it is just made-up - speculation. Think about it: if these witnesses had trouble recalling the pattern of three loud ear-shattering noises spaced 1...2.......3 why did they recall 1.......2...3 in so many different, consistent ways? ie:
* Many witnesses, without quantifying the spacing, said that they heard a loud noise and then a pause then two in rapid succession.
* John Wiseman heard a loud noise - then ran from the front door of the Sheriff's building to the corner of Houston and Main (half the width of the building) and then hears 2 more shots (John Wiseman 19 H 535)
* Wm. Greer stated that the second followed the first by three or four seconds and ?The last two seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind the other, but I don?t recollect just how much, how many seconds were between the two. I couldn?t really say.? 2 H 118.
* Sorrels: ?There was to me about twice as much time between the first and second shots as there was between the second and third shots.? 7 H 345.
* Bowers: ?I heard three shots. One, then a slight pause, then two very close together?. 6 H 287.
* Paternostro: ?He said he estimated several seconds, possibly four or five or more, elapsed between the first report and the second and third reports?... ?then when the other reports followed in quick succession?CE 2105, 24 H 536.
--- Quote ---Spectators in the stands at the Boston Marathon Bombing barely react until the second bomb goes off.
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How is that relevant? As I understand it, the two bombs were separated by a city block and were 12 seconds apart, so it is understandable that people near the site of the second bomb may not have reacted to the first. In any event, few spectators on Elm St. reacted to the first shot. They did not react until after the second or third shots.
This does not mean that the sound of the shots, or of the bombs, was not etched in the witness' memories.
Andrew Mason:
--- Quote from: Jerry Organ on February 11, 2018, 06:22:35 AM ---Robert (Bob) Jackson was certainly a distracted witness at the time of the first shot. He was looking backwards from the car he was in and laughing with others at a reporter who was trying to get a roll of film thrown to him that the wind had caught.
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He was looking forward toward the TSBD at the time of the shots. The incident that you mention occurred at the corner. Their car was "approximately almost half a block on Houston Street when he heard the first shot. He just had to look up to see the rifle in the 6th Floor window.
--- Quote ---To you, Mary Woodward is reliable for "shot spanning"-- but "hazy" in her claim the first shot struck no one and the second shot made the President slump?
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No to me. To her. She said that things were a bit hazy after the first shot as to what it hit. But the one thing that she said she would swear on the bible till the day she dies is that there were three shots - the last two sounding one over top of the echo of the other.
Andrew Mason:
--- Quote from: Jerry Organ on February 12, 2018, 10:39:46 PM ---Stop lawyering up the witness.
Z180s, Jackson is past the midpoint of the building. And he's still turned away from the Depository.
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I can't see Jackson's "x" on CE347 can you? He said he was about half way on Houston and approximately the midpoint of "this building". In any event, it was after he tossed his film to the guy standing on the corner of Houston and Main. It was after that that he heard the shots. Here is a Youtube video of what he recalled in 1999:
//www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctNVyf9jdCM
Notice that he still remarked on the spacing of the shots almost 40 years later.
--- Quote ---You mean this quote:
"One thing I am totally positive about in my own mind is how
many shots there were. And there were three shots. The
second two shots were immediate. It was almost as if one
were an echo of the other. They came so quickly the sound
of one did not cease until the second shot. With the second
and third shot I did see the president being hit."
If you're going to include everything she was sure of in that statement, then you have to include the first shot miss.
Plus we have this:
"I knew the first shot missed--I have never wavered on that.
And I see now that this is getting a lot of support. But I have
said that from day one--that the first shot missed. I've never
changed my mind on that."
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Yes. I have made the point many times that the two are inconsistent. If she heard the last two shots close together as she describes then her "hazy" impression that JFK was not hit by the first shot was wrong. If her "hazy" impression (which conflicts with the clear recollections of about 20 others) is correct, then her recollection of the last two shots being so close together is wrong. They cannot both be correct.
Bill Brown:
--- Quote from: John Iacoletti on February 09, 2018, 09:01:06 PM ---LOL. Nowhere in that video does McDonald even say that Oswald tried to shoot a cop in the theater.
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--- Quote from: Paul McBrearty on February 09, 2018, 09:18:59 PM ---Oh, yes, he does. If you pay attention to the video McDonald states that he "snapped the pistol" in other words he pulled the trigger. Innocent people certainly don't try to shoot their way out, now do they.
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--- Quote from: Bill Brown on February 10, 2018, 02:43:53 AM ---But Paul...
Iacoletti actually believes the snap could have been a theater seat springing to action as someone got up from it.
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--- Quote from: John Iacoletti on February 10, 2018, 08:27:42 PM ---Brown actually believes that a click or a snap noise must be a trigger on a revolver being pulled.
But don't blame me for the idea -- blame Ray Hawkins.
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Except that Hawkins did not say what you're falsely attributing to him. You're putting words in his mouth.
Anything to get a cop-killer off the hook. Right?
John Iacoletti:
--- Quote from: Bill Brown on February 14, 2018, 07:09:10 AM ---Except that Hawkins did not say what you're falsely attributing to him. You're putting words in his mouth.
Anything to get a cop-killer off the hook. Right?
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You haven't actually established that he killed anybody, but nice try. Anything to frame your desired culprit, right? "Tried to shoot a cop". LOL.
I didn't falsely attribute anything.
By the way, it was also mentioned in the Dallas Morning News that earlier as Brewer and Burroughs "passed the back section of the middle aisle downstairs, they heard a seat snap or crack" (November 23, 1963), so according to that, those theater seats did make snapping noises.
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