JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion & Debate > JFK Assassination Plus General Discussion And Debate
How Good Are People at Counting?
Colin Crow:
--- Quote from: Joe Elliott on February 08, 2018, 05:56:13 AM ---Third time or tenth time. What does it matter?
What does this video tell us about relying on distracted witnesses?
What does this video tell us about relying on conclusions that ?64 % of the witnesses who expressed an opinion said . . .? of distracted witnesses?
Are not people trying to count the number of times a basketball is passed distracted witnesses? Are not people who have taken the trouble to drive, or at least walk and wait, for a few seconds of seeing the President and First Lady up close, distracted witnesses?
Is it really wise to trust the consensus of distracted witnesses? That the shots were in a certain pattern? That they noticed nothing out of the ordinary as the players passed the ball?
--- End quote ---
Take a chill pill Joe, was just answering your thread question. ;D
Colin Crow:
I concentrated on the gorilla and didn?t see anyone throw a basketball.....
You think those first in the SN were concentrating on the chicken lunch there and couldn?t see the long bag. Then later when a bag appeared they didn?t notice the chicken bones had placed themselves in a bag and jumped 25 feet.
John Iacoletti:
--- Quote from: Joe Elliott on February 08, 2018, 04:44:16 AM ---Concede?
--- End quote ---
Yes. It seems you are only willing to use the distracted witness excuse when witnesses say things you don't like.
--- Quote ---Three shells were found in the sniper?s nest. The three most likely explanations are:
1. Oswald left a shell in the rifle, from the last time he fired the rifle in practice. This shell was ejected on November 22, but was actually fired several months earlier.
2. Oswald left an extra shell on the floor to create a mystery.
3. Oswald fired three shots.
Possibility 1 and 2 seem unlikely to me. So, it was probably 3 shots.
--- End quote ---
There you go again. "Most likely", "unlikely". Based on what? For one thing all of your options assume Oswald was responsible for the shells being there. Then you assume that these shells created the shots that witnesses heard. All without any evidence. But that aside, why does it "seem unlikely" that an empty shell was ejected before shots were fired? Just because you've already decided that there were 3 shots because jiggles? That would be a circular argument.
--- Quote ---The three-shot scenario is best supported by the jiggle analysis. You like to poohbah the jiggle analysis. But there were clearly fairly loud gunshots fired. And loud gunshots will cause people to jiggle the camera. It is actually unbelievable that these gunshots would not cause Mr. Zapruder to jiggle the camera.
--- End quote ---
I'm not poobahing jiggle analysis. But how do you get from 13 or so jiggles to exactly 3 shots without handwaving and circular arguments. In particular, what about the jiggle at Z293 which was just as strong as your Z153 jiggle? You keep avoiding this question, but it's not going away.
--- Quote ---Shells being found at the crime scene matching the gun he was carrying when arrested.
--- End quote ---
Except he wasn't carrying a gun when he was arrested. And how do you know those shells were even found at the crime scene?
--- Quote ---Why was he found within a half hour of the Officer Tippit murder within a half mile of that murder scene?
--- End quote ---
This is reason? A whole lot of people were "within a half mile of that murder scene".
--- Quote ---Why did he duck into a shoe store just when the police drove by?
--- End quote ---
That's just your assumption.
--- Quote ---Why did he duck into a theater a minute later as the police drove by again?
--- End quote ---
Well, given that nobody actually saw him duck into a theater, that would seem to be an assumption too.
--- Quote ---Why was he found in the theater carrying a gun?
--- End quote ---
Even that has very little evidentiary basis. Basically you have to rely on McDonald who was known to embellish his role in the events of the day. You know, one of those unreliable witnesses you've been talking about. But let's assume that Oswald did have a gun in the theater. This proves that he shot a cop...how exactly?
--- Quote ---Why did he slug and try to shoot the first policeman who approached him in the theater?
--- End quote ---
Loaded question. Why did you beat your wife? There is ZERO evidence that he tried to shoot anybody. NONE.
--- Quote ---How does one top that?
--- End quote ---
By actually basing your beliefs on evidence, not assumptions and handwaving.
Joe Elliott:
Everyone is dodging the main point of this thread.
Can we use majority opinions, ?64% of the witnesses saw such and such? to reliably establish what happened?
Did the limousine stop, slow down or maintain it?s speed?
How many shots were there?
How were the shots spaced?
Did anything unusual happen during the basketball practice?
This question is especially focused on distracted witnesses. Witnesses concentrating on their few seconds near the President and First Lady. Witnesses trying to count the number of basketball practices.
Are these witnesses reliable?
Yes or No.
And if ?Yes?, try to justify your opinion.
Chris Davidson:
Two shots together
Extant z313 + .715 sec later/4.2ft farther west down Elm St.
13.1 Zframes - Rounded to 14 whole frames
Limo speed 3.74mph
Did it stop completely, we'll never know.
Kinney was not distracted.
"At this time I glanced from the taillights of the President's car, that I use for gauging distances for driving. I saw the President lean toward the left and appeared to have grabbed his chest with his right hand. There was a second of pause and then two more shots were heard. Agent Clinton Hill jumped from the follow-up car and dashed to the aid of the President and First Lady in the President's car. I saw one shot strike the President in the right side of the head. The President then fell to the seat to the left toward Mrs. Kennedy. At this time I stepped on the siren and gas pedal at the same time. Agent Greer driving the President's car did the same."
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