Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting

[Colin Crow]

I got it wrong. Brennan arrived at the corner of Houston and Elm at about 12:22 but never took his position on the retainer wall until a few minutes later.

Thanks Tim. He did not take up position until the ambulancence left at 12.25.

[Bill Chapman]

Any documented timestamps to back up your question? Brennan gives the clue in his WC testimony when he took up position. The ambulance and fit are your best friend to determine when. I believe he took up position after after 12.25. But this has all been posted before.

The ambulance arrived at 12:19 and left just before 12:25 according to Fritz
Brennan seated himself between 12:22 and 12:24 according to his testimony

So you couldn't remember the exact times it seems.
Elsewhere you said at 12:25. Now you say after 12:25
Yet you expect witnesses to remember every little detail.

Got it.

[Colin Crow]

The ambulance arrived at 12:19 and left just before 12:25 according to Fritz
Brennan seated himself between 12:22 and 12:24 according to his testimony

So you couldn't remember the exact times it seems.
Elsewhere you said at 12:25. Now you say after 12:25
Yet you expect witnesses to remember every little detail.

Got it.

I don?t know the exact times Bill, these are merely reconstructed from the document we have to do so. The concept of time gives us a way of determining what happened when. Not the exact times but it?s the order and sequence of events Bill. Are you sure the ambulance arrived at 12.19? 12.24, 12.25 doesn?t really matter except Williams arrived after Jarman and Norman.

[Walt Cakebread]

I don?t know the exact times Bill, these are merely reconstructed from the document we have to do so. The concept of time gives us a way of determining what happened when. Not the exact times but it?s the order and sequence of events Bill. Are you sure the ambulance arrived at 12.19? 12.24, 12.25 doesn?t really matter except Williams arrived after Jarman and Norman.

Bill the troll wrote:    "The ambulance arrived at 12:19 and left just before 12:25 according to Fritz
Brennan seated himself between 12:22 and 12:24 according to his testimony"

"So you couldn't remember the exact times it seems. Elsewhere you said at 12:25. Now you say after 12:25
Yet you expect witnesses to remember every little detail."

Got it.

Colin ....This is a favorite tactic of the knit pickin,  chicken spit LNer's, like Chappie.....And you're right...."12.24, 12.25 doesn?t really matter except Williams arrived after Jarman and Norman".

[Oscar Navarro]

You seem either incapable or unwilling to appreciate the assembled information and it?s implications.

The official story is that the shots were fired from the SN at about 12.30. At that time Williams, Jarman and Norman were in the windows immediately below. About 40 minutes later Mooney finds the shells and chicken lunch remnants in the SN. This was verified by numerous police who arrived shortly after and made statements of their observations. Someone (likely Gerald Hill) moved the lunch and eventually placed the chicken piece and bones in the lunchsack. This occurred prior to the arrival of Fritz. The lunch was considered evidence and thought to belong to the assassin. This was widely reported in the media for a few days.

Williams was aware of Oswald?s arrest when he was questioned on the afternoon of the assassination. He was aware of the importance of the 6th floor (it was the reason he was taken for questioning). He deceived and lied about his movements for the duration of the investigation. Eventually he admitted he joined Jarman and Norman shortly before the shots.

Until their WC appearance Jarman and Norman maintained that Williams ascended to the 6th floor with them. Why did they continue to lie about his movements? The timing of his descent and his position in the SN is completely consistent with the essential observations of Arnold Rowland in his WC testimony.

I am not suggesting Williams was in any way part of the shooting. Just that analysis of assembled information from official documents suggest that something other than the offical story occurred in the SN just prior to the shots.

Before I get to my response to this thread I read the Three Stooges thread and was impressed by your arguments and with the information provided, so kudos to you. It's too bad that it was temporarily hijacked by Tutti and Frutti but that can't be helped.

Nevertheless, I was not persuaded to adopt the conclusion you appear to have arrived at for the following reasons. BRW was very vague as to where he left the remains of the chicken lunch, the bag, and even the Dr. Pepper bottle. This ties in with Mooney's testimony as to where he found the chicken bone and the paper bag. He placed the chicken bone and the bag laying on the top of one of two boxes (see CE-513)

Mr. BALL - Does that show any place where you saw the chicken bone?
Mr. MOONEY - If I recall correctly, the chicken bone could have been laying on this box or it might have been laying on this box right here.
Mr. BALL - Make a couple of marks there to indicate where possibly the chicken bone was lying.
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Make two "X's". You think there was a chicken bone on the top of either one of those two?
Mr. MOONEY - There was one of them partially eaten. And there was a little small paper poke.
Mr. BALL - By poke, you mean a paper sack?
Mr. MOONEY - Right.
Mr. BALL - Where was that?
Mr. MOONEY - Saw the chicken bone was laying here. The poke was laying about a foot away from it.
Mr. BALL - On the same carton?
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. In close relation to each other. But as to what was in the sack--it was kind of together, and I didn't open it. I didn't put my hands on it to open it. I only saw one piece of chicken.



These boxes marked by Mooney formed part of the wall of boxes between the SN and the area where BRW said he was during his stay on the sixth floor. BRW could just as easily have placed the chicken and the paper bag from outside the SN and not seen LHO in the SN if he was there during the time BRW was at the sixth floor. IMO, LHO could have been just about anywhere on the sixth floor and have made it to the SN from the time BRW left the sixth floor on his way down to the fifth floor to meet up with Junior and Norman without beeing seen by BRW. Where I don't believe LHO could have been was on the SW end of the sixth floor where Arnold Rowland says he saw someone with a rifle at about 12:15 p.m. because BRW had a clear line of sight from where he claimed to have been eating his lunch towards the west of the TSBD facing south. I also don't believe that Rowland saw a man who could have been BRW inside the SN because it's not recorded in any of the previous interviews before his testimony to the WC and never mentioned it to his wife. While Rowland was probably a nice young man he was prone to exxagerations and many of his other observations during his testimony were just fabrications.

As to Norman's and Jarman's statements these guys got together before their WC testimony and ironed out the differences in their statements because, IMO, they wanted to be as accurate as possible but not to come clean for past attempts to cover for BRW.

[Oscar Navarro]

But somehow you assume that three different versions of what was said during interrogations must all be accurate and therefore Oswald "changed his story".  Interesting...

Oswald was a known uber liar so there's no reason to believe anything he said.

[Oscar Navarro]

According to Dallas police radio logs the motorcade was at Ross at 12.20 and Live Oak at 12.22. This would have placed it at Main about 12.24pm.

So I suggest the best evidence provided by Norman was that they started to go upstairs about 12.24. It took them a t least a couple of minutes to get into position. they arrived at about 12.26 or so. This might explain why neither of these two report anything about the Belknap seizure and ambulance arrival as they were on their journey around the back of the TSBD and up the elevator. Interestingly Williams fails to mention the ambulance arrival in any of his statements, I wonder why he might not mention that (time-stamped) event as it was raised by other key witnesses (Brennan and Rowland come to mind). The "final" official story has Williams descending from the sixth floor after Jarman and Norman are in position......so he vacates his position no earlier than 12.26pm

Timeline according to 6th Floor Museum; Motorcade turns into Main St. 12:21 p.m.

https://www.jfk.org/the-assassination/jfk-assassination-timeline/

DPD radio log has motorcade reaching intersection of Harwood and Live Oak before 12:22 p.m. that's three blocks from Main St. While on main St. the motorcade was travelling at a speed of from 10-15 MPH (see Kellerman WCT). There's also the question as to how Norman knew of the motorcade arriving at Main St. has to be explained. KLIF was not reporting the location of the motorcade once it left Love Field (see David Von Pein You Tube channel) and there's no evidence there was a two or three wheeler DPD motorbike outside the DTBD while Norman was out side waiting for the motorcade.