Oswald in the TSBD just after the shooting

[Colin Crow]

According to their WC testimony BRW did not go up with Jarman and Norman to the fifth floor. It was during their WC testimony that many things were cleared up, previous statements they were alleged to have made corrected and the truth of the events more or less arrived at. It was a shame that Norman's and Jarman's times were not addressed as they did not correlate with BRW's but I don't believe any of these guys were trying to hide anything and WC counsel were not trying to cover up anything. I've already said this much before so that should cover whatever it was that BRW put down on the 22nd.

Now, since you are supposedly interested in debating and discussing, why don't you address what I have brought up in previous posts.

What have I not addressed? I found the primary source transcript that has a call of Main by Decker at 12.22. Yet you persist to use the 6th floor museum time of 12.21 with no reference listed. I showed that Brennan watched them remove Belknap at about 12.24. He claimed to have done this while standing. You simply dismissed this and used Brennan?s rough estimate to put him on the wall at 12.22.

Since you seem to know and believe all significant events of the day, tell me how many men Brennan described seeing on the 5th floor and who they were?

Tell me why Williams said nothing about his lunch trip to the 6th floor in his first statement. Why did he lie and say he went up with Jarman and Norman? Why did they support this initial lie for all statements until Ball and Brennan went to Dallas in March 64 to "tidy things up".

Your belief of events is not based on contemporary statements but a concoction developed by lawyers with the LN filter strongly applied. It does not even stand up to the actual statements provided by key witnesses and the irony is that the Ball/Belin fantasy explaining Williams movements did not even survive to make the Warren Report.

[Zeon Mason]

 
The fact that Norman and Jarman have to be AT their wndows when they are 1st seen by Bonnie Ray Williams when BRW returns to 5th floor using West Elevator, and BRW not seeing them, unitl he walks across the 5th floor to the south side of the floor, means the shooter or person holding a rifle, in the SE window 6th floor, cannot have started moving and stacking boxes unitl AFTER Norman is at the 5th floor window, right underneath the shooter as the shooter is doing this activity.

Norman heard NOTHING of this activity right above his head. Yet 3 shots from a riflle  caused dust or debris to fall thru the crack in the floor onto the top of BRW head. A moving human weighing  at least 130lbs and carrying and stacking 20lb or heavier boxes, however, caused NO dust falling, NO noise, And if Arnold Rowland ovservation of man leaning out the SE 6h story window is correct, then the window HAD to be open MORE than 15 inches at that time. Who readjusted the window from nearly full open (per Rowland observation), to the 15" open or 1/4th open approx?


BRW has no WC testimony of having adjusted the window or even being AT that SN window. So the shooter had to have adusted the window, and that sliding of the window downward, also made NO NOISE apparently, or else Norman rght below, was temporarily not able to hear such noise.

I guess this is why its just a lot easier to dismiss Arnold Rowlands WC testimony as "exaggeration" because otherwise, you have to epxlain that Norman has only very selective hearing, and that dust doesnt fall from wieight applied on a floor, but does fall from a sound blast that is less force acting on a floor than the weight of the human moving on top of it does.

[Peter Kleinschmidt]

I'm actually agreeing with this part of your statement made in reply #214 "They passed through the first floor shipping department". The door at the north entrance hugs the wall which connects to the elevators that hug the north wall. See CE-1061 and WR, page 148 for a clearer view. Anyone in the Domino Room could have seen through the windows both Jarman and Norman walking outside heading to the north side door. The thing is that it wasn't Oswald. The little rat claimed that he ate alone on the first floor during his initial interrogation. Oswald said that he took the Coke bought in the second floor lunchroom and then "stood around" ate lunch in the employee lunch room, then "went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley" then left for home because Bill Shelley's remarks led him to reach the conclusion there was no more work to be done that day. Bill Shelley denied both seeing Oswald and saying anything that would lead Oswald to reach believe he could go home.

On the 23rd Oswald then changed his story to say that he ate lunch in the lunch room alone, "but recalled possibly two negro employees passing through the room during this period". This statement indicates that Oswald saw Jarman and possibly Norman passing through the lunch room, not seeing them pass along the outside wall facing Houston St. or the Houston St. dock. According to Inspector Kelley Oswald said on the 23rd that "he ate lunch with the colored boys who worked with him".

On the 24th Oswald told Inspector Holmes "when lunch time came, and he didn't say which floor he was on, he said one of the Negro employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he stated 'You go down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in a few minutes.' Before he could finish whatever he was doing , he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and he went downstairs".

As can be seen from the examples of Oswald's interrogations he not only gave four different versions of his lunch story but not one would place both Jarman and Norman needing to go through the lunchroom to reach the elevators to go to the fifth floor. Jarman and Norman traveled through the outside of the TSBD until they went inside the TSBD through the north back door and then went west a little ways and took the west elevator. This proves beyond an doubt that Oswald was lying and anyone who believes that Oswald was in the first floor lunchroom during the shootings is a moron.

"The thing is that it wasn't Oswald. The little rat claimed that he ate alone on the first floor during his initial interrogation. Oswald said that he took the Coke bought in the second floor lunchroom and then "stood around" ate lunch in the employee lunch room, then "went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman Bill Shelley" then left for home because Bill Shelley's remarks led him to reach the conclusion there was no more work to be done that day. Bill Shelley denied both seeing Oswald and saying anything that would lead Oswald to reach believe he could go home"[

How in the world do give weight to 100% second-hand information, when there is no document which speaks to his specific location at the time of the shooting?
How is it that you love to use Harold Norman to corroborate anything? Right below is McCloy asking Norman about time-

Mr. McCLOY. Do you have any rough recollection of the amount of time that passed between the time you heard the first shot and when you ran down to the west end of the building and looked out the window there and the time when you left the fifth floor and finally came down to the first floor where the police officers were? Can you give me a general estimate of about how much time that took?
Mr. NORMAN. To come down from the fifth floor?
Mr. McCLOY. Yes. From the time you first heard the shot and saw what was going on in the motorcade and then ran down toward the western end of the building and then as I understand your testimony, you left there and went down to the did you go down to the fourth floor first or did you go all the way down?
Mr. NORMAN. I believe we went all the way.
Mr. McCLOY. Until you got down to the first floor, how much would you say was the entire length of that time, from the first shot until you got down on the first floor?
Mr. NORMAN. Oh, I would say somewhere between 10 or 15 minutes, somewhere like that.


10 to 15 minutes? How long did he hear a weapon being fired, 3 or 4 minutes??? Maybe a minute per round??
Why does this fool answer every question with a question?

Mr. McCloy.  Can you give me a general estimate of about how much time that took?
Mr. NORMAN. To come down from the fifth floor?

No Norman, to come down to 1st floor from the basement. What a reliable witness

[Ray Mitcham]

According to their WC testimony BRW did not go up with Jarman and Norman to the fifth floor. It was during their WC testimony that many things were cleared up, previous statements they were alleged to have made corrected and the truth of the events more or less arrived at. It was a shame that Norman's and Jarman's times were not addressed as they did not correlate with BRW's but I don't believe any of these guys were trying to hide anything and WC counsel were not trying to cover up anything. I've already said this much before so that should cover whatever it was that BRW put down on the 22nd.

"It was during their WC testimony that many things were cleared up, previous statements they were alleged to have made corrected "

Of course they were they had to have been to make the story stick.

[Zeon Mason]

Norman never changed his time approximation for 3 shots fired which is according to his several interviews recorded including also at the mock trial, has 3 shots fired in less than 5 seconds.

His WC testimony also states he heard the 1st shot, saw JFK "slump" and then heard the next 2 shots


Mr. NORMAN. I believe it was his right arm, and I can't remember what the exact time was but I know I heard a shot, and then after I heard the shot, well, it seems as though the President, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and I believe Jarman or someone told me, he said, "I believe someone is shooting at the President," and I think I made a statement "It is someone shooting at the President, and I believe it came from up above us."
Well, I couldn't see at all during the time but I know I heard a third shot fired, and I could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me



so if Norman heard these 3 shots in less than 5 seconds as per his several video taped interviews as he does his boom clak clak sequence renactiment, then the 1st shot Norman is hearing and then seeing the President slump, must be the shot at Z223

[Colin Crow]

The fact that Norman and Jarman have to be AT their wndows when they are 1st seen by Bonnie Ray Williams when BRW returns to 5th floor using West Elevator, and BRW not seeing them, unitl he walks across the 5th floor to the south side of the floor, means the shooter or person holding a rifle, in the SE window 6th floor, cannot have started moving and stacking boxes unitl AFTER Norman is at the 5th floor window, right underneath the shooter as the shooter is doing this activity.

Norman heard NOTHING of this activity right above his head. Yet 3 shots from a riflle  caused dust or debris to fall thru the crack in the floor onto the top of BRW head. A moving human weighing  at least 130lbs and carrying and stacking 20lb or heavier boxes, however, caused NO dust falling, NO noise, And if Arnold Rowland ovservation of man leaning out the SE 6h story window is correct, then the window HAD to be open MORE than 15 inches at that time. Who readjusted the window from nearly full open (per Rowland observation), to the 15" open or 1/4th open approx?


BRW has no WC testimony of having adjusted the window or even being AT that SN window. So the shooter had to have adusted the window, and that sliding of the window downward, also made NO NOISE apparently, or else Norman rght below, was temporarily not able to hear such noise.

I guess this is why its just a lot easier to dismiss Arnold Rowlands WC testimony as "exaggeration" because otherwise, you have to epxlain that Norman has only very selective hearing, and that dust doesnt fall from wieight applied on a floor, but does fall from a sound blast that is less force acting on a floor than the weight of the human moving on top of it does.

Zeno, few boxes were placed in the SN by any assassin. The majority were moved by the floor working crew in the past few days. Bonnie Ray Williams was in the SN until about 12.25. We know this because there were numerous officers who described his chicken lunch in that location. Those were the officers who arrived before Fritz. Prior to his arrival someone moved the lunch westward. We also know williams was there because Rowland described him in the SN at the same some (12.15) as a gunman in the west window.

The LN camp will attempt to discredit Rowland because his testimony and the chicken lunch puts extreme pressure on Williams. Not because he was involved in the plot but because the assembled, verified, evidence tells a different story of the crime scene immediately before the shots than they would wish you to "believe".

Here is a sequence of events.

Rowland sees a gunman on the 6th floor in the SW window.

Williams goes up to the 6th floor.

Jarman and Norman go up to the fifth.

Williams joins Norman and Jarman On the fifth.

A test for anyone.....put them in the right order and work out what time (roughly). Provide your evidence for doing so.

[Oscar Navarro]

Doesn't seem like they got the "hell from up there" in any big hurry.\:

Mr. McCLOY. Have you got any appreciation of the time that elapsed between your hearing the first shot and the time that you got finally down to the first floor, after you had been on the fifth floor and the fourth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. No, sir; I could not give you any time.
Mr. McCLOY. Well, you did not give us any time. Do you have any recollection now of about how long that was? Was it 15 minutes, 10 minutes, 20 minutes? How long did it take from the time that you were looking out that window and you heard that shot until you did get down to the first floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I could say approximately 15 minutes, maybe a little before then, maybe after. I could not say exactly.

Resorting to just one quote to make a point is a fools errand.

From Harold Norman's 12/4/1963 Affidavit;

We discussed the shots, and where they had come from and decided we better go down stairs. We walked down the stairs to the first floor and did not see anyone else on the stairway as we went down. From the time of the shots until we started down-stairs was about five minutes.
I have read over the above statement and it is the truth to the best of my knowledge.

From Harold Norman's WC testimony;

The CHAIRMAN. Did you see Brennan down there when you came downstairs? Did you come out the front door?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I came out the front door and I remember seeing Mr. Brennan.
Mr. BELIN. About how long after the shooting was that?
Mr. NORMAN. It wasn't very long because--I can't remember the time but it wasn't too long a period of time, and I remember seeing him because he had on a steel helmet, a little steel helmet.
Representative FORD. Was he standing with another man and they called you over?
Mr. NORMAN. I don't know if he was exactly standing with another man, but it was several people standing around there, and I remember him talking and I believe I remember him saying that he saw us when we first went up to the fifth floor window, he saw us then. I believe I heard him say that, but otherwise I don't know if he was standing by. There was quite a few people standing around there.
Representative FORD. You were stopped and Mr. Brennan made these comments?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir; I remember.
Representative FORD. On the front entrance steps?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes, sir.
Representative FORD. Of the Depository Building?
Mr. NORMAN. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Then did you go out of the building, away from the building or come back?
Mr. NORMAN. No, sir; we had to go back inside.


From James Jarman WC testimony;

The CHAIRMAN - Now, tell me, when you went downstairs--when you were downstairs and went out the first time, that is, just before you met Brennan, did anyone stop you as you went out the building?
Mr. JARMAN - No, sir.
The CHAIRMAN - You could have gone right away if you wanted to, could you?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN - And then you happened to run across Brennan, and had this conversation with him?
Mr. JARMAN - No. He ran up to the police officer and was telling him about the man sticking a gun out the window. And I heard him telling the officer that.
And I told him that I thought the shots came from inside, too.

Jarman sees Brennan run up to the police officer. That's who Brennan ran up to before Inspector Sawyer arrived at the scene and before Brennan sees Jarman and Norman.

From Howard Brennan's WC testimony;

Mr. McCLOY. How long did it take you, do you think, from the time of the--when you first got up-- from the time of the last shot, how long would you estimate it would be before you got to the steps of the Texas Book Depository?
Mr. BRENNAN. I could not calculate that, because before I got to the steps of the Texas Book Store, I had already talked to this officer, and he had taken me to the Secret Service men, I had talked to them.
Mr. McCLOY. And you stayed behind the retaining wall for a little while until you saw the coast was clear?
Mr. BRENNAN. Just seconds. I would say from the time the last shot was fired, and me diving off the wall there, and getting around on the solid side, and then running across to the officer, the time element is hard to figure, but it would still be in seconds.
Mr. McCLOY. Then when you got to the officer he took you to a Secret Service man, and then the Secret Service man and you were on the steps of the depository?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Well, we talked at the car, and then when these two colored guys came down the stairway onto the street, I pointed to them, and identified them as being the two that was in the floor below that floor. And then Mr. Sorrels, I think, had to give some orders to someone in the book store. He walked me up the steps, and I stood on the top landing.
Mr. McCLOY. When you were standing on those steps, did you see anyone pass you, or anyone that you could recognize as being--as looking somewhat like the man that you had seen in the window with the rifle?
Mr. BRENNAN. No, I did not.
Mr. DULLES. Did you give any estimate was it a matter of 5 minutes, 6 minutes, 7 minutes? In general, how long did it take you from the time that you left where you were protecting yourself to the time you were on the front steps? What order of magnitude? 10 minutes?
Mr. BRENNAN. No; it was a shorter time than that.
I talked to Mr. Sorrels--I believe it was Mr. Sorrels--and the Secret Service men there I don't believe I talked to them more than 3 to 5 minutes.
Mr. McCLOY. But you had prior to that time talked to the police officer?
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. You said the police officer said, "Wait a minute."
Mr. BRENNAN. Yes.
Mr. McCLOY. How long was that?
Mr. BRENNAN. That was quick, too. He gave his orders to some one on that side of the building, and then he had taken me to the Secret Service man.

Inspector Sawyer (Brennan confused Sorrels for Sawyer) was parked in front of the TSBD when Brennan saw Jarman and Norman coming down the front steps of the TSBD to the street. Sawyer estimates that he gave instructions for the TSBD to be sealed off sometime after 12:37 in the presence of Brennan. Soon thereafter sawyer sets up a command post across the street at the Sheriff's Office to take witness statements and Brennan is sent there by the DPD cop. By 12:45 Brennan's description goes out as an APB and is transcribed in the radio log.  BRW time estimate of 15 minutes is way off as can be seen by the statements of Norman, Jarman, Brennan, and Sawyer (see Sawyer's WC testimony).