The confusing recollection of Jack Dougherty


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Offline Jerry Freeman

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The confusing recollection of Jack Dougherty
« on: December 05, 2018, 05:13:12 AM »
Dougherty's Dallas Police affidavit 11-22-63 
The exhibits reproduced in the Warren Report were often difficult if not nearly impossible to read.
Basically, Dougherty stated there...

He was working on the sixth floor. He claimed to have gone back to work after lunch at 12:45 but then contradicted himself, stating he had already gone back to work and had gone to the fifth floor to get stock by the time he heard the shot which in reality happened at 12:32. He then stated he went down to the first floor and asked Eddie Piper, another employee, if he heard anything. Eddie responded that he heard three shots. Jack then claimed to have returned to work on the sixth floor, seeing everyone but Oswald. He claimed to have seen Oswald on the sixth floor shortly before noon but not after the shots were fired. 
But then there is the Dougherty FBI affidavit on 11-22-63....
http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/jack-edwin-dougherty/jack-edwin-dougherty-fbi-statement-nov-22-1963-2/
` click to enlarge`


Compare that to his recorded FBI statement made on 12-18-63 April '64....

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/W%20Disk/Witnesses/Item%2016.pdf


This is a recently released memorandum from WC asst counsel attny Melvin Eisenberg to chief counsel J Lee Rankin page one



It would seem that maybe Mr Dougherty may have suffered from what is called today as PTSD. Except one thing... he never went into combat.
The rest of that memo [about 4-5 pages] can be found here....
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/7460478
It is a very interesting read. The Warren lawyer was "suspicious of Doughtery".
Basically, Roy Truly furnished information to the FBI agents that Dougherty was a good employee but that he was mentally retarded and was easily confused. He became apparently quite disoriented after the assassination. That was suspicious? This is from Jack Doughtery's testimony before the commission......

Quote
Mr. BALL - Where did you go to school?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Sunset High School.
Mr. BALL - You went through Sunset High School? [graduate?]
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What year did you get out of high school? About?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, 1937. [@ age 14?]
Mr. BALL - 1937?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - What kind of work did you do after that?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, of course, a year or so, you might say--just work in grocery stores until I was 19 and volunteered for the Armed Services in October--October 24, 1942.
Mr. BALL - How long were you in the service?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - 2 years, 1 month, 17 days, to be exact. [he remembered that exactly!]
Mr. BALL - And you were discharged from the Service, then, after the War, was it?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - What did you do during the service---during your period in the service?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, you might say just about a little bit of everything, from guard duty to---
Mr. BALL - Did you have any active service?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, no--I volunteered for active service, but they said you couldn't very well volunteer--you have to be drafted, so they said, they told me at the time.
Doughtery made no sense and  asst counsel Ball made no sense. Ball didn't even establish what had happened to four years of JDs life after he left high school in 1937! However that might be answered with the picture below.
Quote
Mr. BALL - Did you ever leave the United States during the War?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, yes.
Mr. BALL - Where did you go?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I was stationed, oh, for about a year up in Indiana up there---Seymour, Ind.
Mr. BALL - Then where did you go from there in the service?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I stayed there until I got discharged.
Mr. BALL - You didn't ever go outside the country to Europe?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, no.
Mr. BALL - Or to the South Seas?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - You stayed in this country all the time?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Now, did you ever have any difficulty with your speech?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - You never had any?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - Did you ever have any difficulty in the Army with any medical treatment or anything of that sort?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - None at all?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

JD lied there but I believe it was due to embarrassment mostly. In the army during WW2..if someone volunteered for combat they sent them to combat unless there is some reason that would put people in battle at grave personal risk.
Quote
Mr. BALL - What did you do after you got out of the Army?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, jobs were pretty scarce about the time I got out of the service, so I just went from place to place and applied and put my application in, so I started over here at the Texas School Book Depository and put my application in there and I got it through the Suburban Employment Agency, and I been working there ever since.
Mr. BALL - And that was when--in 1940, was it, you started to work at the Texas School Book Depository? [Why did Ball say 1940?]
Mr. DOUGHERTY - September 17, 1940.
Mr. BALL - 1940 what?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Let's see, I have been with them 11 years--that would be---
Mr. BALL - That would be 1952, wouldn't it?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes--that's 1952.
Mr. BALL - 1952?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes; that's right, to be exact.
Mr. BALL - What did you do between the time you got out of the service and 1952?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I didn't do anything to be frank with you.
Mr. BALL - You didn't?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - You didn't work?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, no.
Mr. BALL - You stayed at home?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir.
Mr. BALL - Did you live with your father and mother?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.
Mr. BALL - Have you ever been married?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.
Mr. BALL - And you still live with your father and mother?
Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes. [Jack's father took him to the testimony at the courthouse]
 

In the picture below is that really Jack Dougherty in uniform? [upper far right- you have to use the slider] and the picture is captioned '1940'. That's BS.
But didn't he actually graduate in 1941 from Dallas Sunset? Makes more sense. 





 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 06:34:23 AM by Jerry Freeman »

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The confusing recollection of Jack Dougherty
« on: December 05, 2018, 05:13:12 AM »


Offline Alan Ford

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Re: The confusing recollection of Jack Dougherty
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2018, 11:50:51 PM »
If the "Jack Dougherty" at Sunset High in 1941 is the same person as Mr Roy Truly's "great big husky fellow", then my money would be on this guy!


Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: The confusing recollection of Jack Dougherty
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2019, 09:58:16 PM »
The links that I provided in the opening topic are no longer available for some reason.
The only ones that I can find now are the Warren Report testimony and the undated hand written statement to the police....
 https://texashistory.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metapth339130/

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Re: The confusing recollection of Jack Dougherty
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2019, 09:58:16 PM »


Online Walt Cakebread

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Re: The confusing recollection of Jack Dougherty
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2019, 12:05:55 AM »
Dougherty's Dallas Police affidavit 11-22-63 
The exhibits reproduced in the Warren Report were often difficult if not nearly impossible to read.
Basically, Dougherty stated there...

He was working on the sixth floor. He claimed to have gone back to work after lunch at 12:45 but then contradicted himself, stating he had already gone back to work and had gone to the fifth floor to get stock by the time he heard the shot which in reality happened at 12:32. He then stated he went down to the first floor and asked Eddie Piper, another employee, if he heard anything. Eddie responded that he heard three shots. Jack then claimed to have returned to work on the sixth floor, seeing everyone but Oswald. He claimed to have seen Oswald on the sixth floor shortly before noon but not after the shots were fired. 
But then there is the Dougherty FBI affidavit on 11-22-63....



Compare that to his recorded FBI statement made on 12-18-63....




This is a recently released memorandum from WC asst counsel attny Melvin Eisenberg to chief counsel J Lee Rankin page one



It would seem that maybe Mr Dougherty may have suffered from what is called today as PTSD. Except one thing... he never went into combat.
The rest of that memo [about 4-5 pages] can be found here....
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/7460478
It is a very interesting read. The Warren lawyer was "suspicious of Doughtery".
Basically, Roy Truly furnished information to the FBI agents that Dougherty was a good employee but that he was mentally retarded and was easily confused. He became apparently quite disoriented after the assassination. That was suspicious? This is from Jack Doughtery's testimony before the commission......
Doughtery made no sense and  asst counsel Ball made no sense. Ball didn't even establish what had happened to four years of JDs life after he left high school in 1937! However that might be answered with the picture below.
JD lied there but I believe it was due to embarrassment mostly. In the army during WW2..if someone volunteered for combat they sent them to combat unless there is some reason that would put people in battle at grave personal risk. 

In the picture below is that really Jack Dougherty in uniform? [upper far right- you have to use the slider] and the picture is captioned '1940'. That's BS.
But didn't he actually graduate in 1941 from Dallas Sunset? Makes more sense. 




The photo of Dougherty ( wearing neck tie)  looks to be the same man who was on the sixth floor at the time  the rifle was being examined ....(I believe Duncan posted that photo about a year ago)

Offline Akis Papas

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Re: The confusing recollection of Jack Dougherty
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2019, 08:58:15 PM »
in american yearbooks is it supposed to show also the names of the students?

Offline Jerry Freeman

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Re: The confusing recollection of Jack Dougherty
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2019, 10:12:50 PM »
in american yearbooks is it supposed to show also the names of the students?
The class portraits do but candid photos usually don't ;)

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Re: The confusing recollection of Jack Dougherty
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2019, 10:12:50 PM »


Offline Tom Scully

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Re: The confusing recollection of Jack Dougherty
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2019, 03:43:00 AM »
Both this forum and another major one seem lately to be besieged by newer or less informed posters who tend to
be predisposed to reinventing the wheel. This tendency is aggravated, in my experience, from suspicions incompatible
with making allowance for the notion that Dougherty's medical record was not deemed to be the business of the public,
and similarly regarded records were usually only made public resulting from FOIA litigation.

Will the following have the opposite effect of influencing readers and posters to be less suspicious of Dougherty?
Would fakery not have required Truly and R.C. Dougherty and his son, Jack to have conspired, or did Truly recently
fall of the back of a turnip truck, i.e., a clueless pawn in the Doughertys' deceptions ?

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10490&relPageId=781&search=mr._truly%20and%20retarded


It seems the protection of medical records has since been codified into law. Those not charged with a crime should
be afforded confidentiality and those under investigation should be unknown until charged and this is the legal premise
for secrecy of grand jury deliberations. Our system once valued the standard that it is preferable to endure a thousand
guilty not held accountable vs. unjust conviction and punishment of one innocent person.

Dougherty did not testify he had graduated from high school.

Dougherty's father, Redfern, described his son's challenges to investigators.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1136&relPageId=638&search=jack_and%20father
and
Quote
Also present during the interview with JACK EDWIN DOUGHERTY was his father, R. C. DOUGHERTY, who advised his son had received a medical discharge from the U. S. Army and indicated his son had considerable difficulty in coordinating his mental facilities with his speech.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0320b.htm
Immediately before employment at TSBD, Dougherty was employed by  Goodwill Ind.


His military service was brief, considering the U.S. was engaged in World War in two major fronts at
the time of his discharge.

BTW, I spoke directly to a child of Dougherty's sister, five years ago. I called that individual to suggest the Dougherty
family donate a photo of uncle Jack to the Sixth Floor Museum, in consideration of the impending 50th anniversary of the
JFK Assassination. The reaction to my suggestion was "no" and the stated reason was the upset to the family in reaction
to negative opinions and suspicions about Jack posted on the internet. I was asked how the recipient of my call could be
certain I was not one of the interenet posters influencing such upset to the Doigherty family. I replied I was not one of those
posters, merely a researcher prioritizing verifiable facts and because I was asking nothing for myself since I had no connection
with the SFM and had not asked anything about Uncle Jack after I introduced myself as a researcher who had independently
determined I was calling and speaking with one of Jack's most immediate surviving relations since Jack had remained under his
mother's roof his entire life and had fathered no known children.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2019, 04:48:34 AM by Tom Scully »

Offline Colin Crow

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Re: The confusing recollection of Jack Dougherty
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2019, 10:37:56 AM »
Some thoughts on Dougherty.

This point can be applied to others who offer specific times in testimonies/statements. Do not take specific times stated literally. They are on many occasions estimations and should be overriden by known time stamps. Eg Dougherty says he went back to work at 12.45. This was the normal return to work time however Dougherty claimed he went back to work just before the shots....we know that they occurred around 15 minutes earlier....hence the relevant sequence is he went back to work then the shots occurred.

He was the closest known witness by foot to the SN.

He was the last known witness to be present on the 6th floor before the shots.

According to the official story he had to have moved the west elevator off the 5th floor prior to the arrival of Baker and Truly.

According to his testimony, his position at the time of the shots put him in position to notice anyone taking the stairs immediately after the shots.

He was not part of the flooring crew but was taken to City Hall along with the others who were on instruction from Fritz to Senkel. He was to gather all employees who had been on the 6th floor that day. Two were no longer in the building, Oswald and Givens. Two others were, Frazier and Norman, but somehow avoided being taken for statements with the others.

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Re: The confusing recollection of Jack Dougherty
« Reply #7 on: March 03, 2019, 10:37:56 AM »


 

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