WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA

[Jack Nessan]

In his Nov 22/63 dispatch Altgens twice referred to the "second burst of noise" but never said the burst contained a single shot.  Other witnesses said that the sound of the last two overlapped. In his WC testimony he said (7H518):

"I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for the last shot, but I cannot tell
you how many shots were in between. There was not another shot fired after
the President was struck in the head."

Sorry about including Decker.  I didn't intend to suggest Decker commented on shot spacing.  I was copying the cite from my paper and intended to erase the reference to the Decker exhibit for the Sweatt cite and I guess I got sidetracked.  But while we are on the subject of Decker (who as far as I can tell never mentioned shot spacing) was in the lead car and in an undated report done at least several days after the event said "I distinctly remember hearing two shots".  He did not say there were only two shots.  He just distinctly remembered hearing two. Decker was a very busy fellow and recalling the number of shots may not have been the most important detail on his mind. He also did not get much sleep in those days after the assassination.
In her first statement Nov. 24/63 she stated 3 shots and did not comment on which one hit the President in the head.  In her March 23/64 statement she mentioned people reacting after the second shot.  Of course the third shot is after the second shot.  Aren't you going against your own principles in preferring her much later statement over her earlier one?  As far as Hudson is concerned, in his signed Nov 22/63 statement he said "I definitely heard 3 shots" (19H481).  In neither of his FBI statements did he state that the head shot was the second shot. It was only in his July/64 deposition that he said for the first time that he thought the second shot was the head shot.  He also said in that deposition, contrary to his earlier recollection, that the shots were evenly spaced over 2 minutes, that he did not see the president did not react to any other shots.  So at that time he did not remember what he said in his FBI statement: that he saw JFK's head slump to one side in reaction to the first shot.
She doesn't exactly help your "only two shot" theory, does she?
I am not "choosing" Jackson.  I listed all the witnesses who commented on the shot pattern or shot spacing. Jackson was one of those witnesses. Darnell gave a statement on Nov 29/63 in which he states that after the second shot he left the press car and ran toward the president's car. He noted a lot of confusion.  He doesn't say what he did after the third shot - presumably still running toward the scene.  He did not say there were only two shots.
I am not "arbitrarily" interpreting their statements to mean 2.3 seconds.  I am presenting their recollections of the last two shots fired in rapid succession.  That gives us the general timing of the second shot. I am using specific evidence to more accurately place the second shot.  A key observation was Hickey seeing JFK's hair fly forward on the second shot but missing his head.  That occurs in only one place:  z273-276.  This also corresponds to Greer's first turn (z278-280) which he said he did immediatly after the second shot.  It also fits with the change in appearance of JBC's wrist (z271-72) and the movement of the sun visor (z271-72).  It just so happens that a shot at z271-72 is 2.3 seconds from z313.Hudson is a better example. There was no media influence on his first statement taken a few hours after the assassination.

The first statement from Altgens was read by Don Pardo. You are referencing the second bulletin he wrote 7 hours later. He went from stating two shots to two "bursts of noise."
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If Decker had heard three shots he would have remembered and stated three shots. A policeman would understand the importance of getting it right.
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Kounas-- It is against what I believe. She is actually making a statement against common belief which is rare. Does the third shot make any sense to the statement but there it is. Even you do not advocate a shot after the head shot.

Hudson sounds definite and never made a contradictory statement to it. Why would you who claim the head shot to be the last shot and yet quote Hudson?

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.
Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.
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Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right?
Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.
Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there?
Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.
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You chose Jackson. Two shots is a pattern with a time interval. Since when does "rapid succession" and all the other ways witnesses refer to how close the last two were equate to 2.3 seconds?

Hickey seen the bullet impact his head and the hair flew forward. Completely different.
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Marilyn proves it. Once again the third shot does not make any sense to the statement but there it is. Over and over again a shot is added to the statements that makes no sense to the narrative.

Altgens states it best. You yourself believe the headshot is the final shot.
Altgens:"There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty."
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The influence was immediate. Within minutes, while on the way to Parkland, Merriman Smith issued a bulletin stating "three shots fired at the motorcade" and was that message was broadcast over the airwaves eight minutes later. Before the hour was up Jay Watson was already correcting Bill Newman that there was three shots. Altgens stated there was two. But like the WC stated:

WC: "....Soon after the three empty cartridges were found, officials at the scene decided that three shots were fired, and that conclusion was widely circulated by the press.

The press had already been reporting three shots long before the shells were found. They had been reporting it within minutes of the assassination and anybody with a radio or within earshot of a radio heard it.

[Jack Nessan]

Putting words into other peoples' mouths is a dishonest thing. I have NEVER said that only two shots were fired or that they came from the TSBD. Why do you lie about what I have said?

This is a distraction since you CANNOT support the WC's ridiculous SBT claim that you endorse.

Appears to be a lot of drama and indignation. That must mean you see the flawed logic too. Apparently you have never thought this theory through. Unless the shooters were standing shoulder to shoulder, the problem is the logic about the number of shooters, number of shots, and the number of shells does not work. Three shots fired, two shooters. with three shells matched to the carcano but being found in just one location. Were they passing the rifle between them?

Brother Rob, you made this statement about Sen Russell. It seems fairly straight forward. Sen Russell believed JBC was struck by a seperate shot and then you added that meant a second shooter. There is nothing in the wording to indicate Sen Russell believed there was four shots. Given the WC conclusion and your belief that there was two shooters, it would mean one assassin fired two shots and the other fired just one. The fragments and one bullet were matched to the Carcano found on the 6th floor and the carcano was matched to the three shells found on the 6th floor of the TSBD.

R Caprio: "Unfortunately for us, Senator Russell never seemed to grasp the significance of his statements regarding the SBT.  In his September 18, 1964, telephone conversation with LBJ, Russell said that his rejection of the SBT "don't [sic] make much difference" and was "just a little thing." He didn't seem (or want to see) grasp the fact that if the SBT was false there had to be more than one assassin involved."

It appears there is a very serious logic problem. In fact there is nothing logical about it. If there was three shots and a seperate  shot from a seperate assassin and then three shells being found on the 6th floor. In the end you are right, LHO--excuse me-- someone only fired twice. A long way around the issue but you stumbled onto the truth.

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Prove there was three shots instead of just state there was. Did you ever call a state Fish and Game office? They will help you understand one bullet going through multiple targets. Seems no one on the forum can help you.

[Rob Caprio]

Appears to be a lot of drama and indignation. That must mean you see the flawed logic too. Apparently you have never thought this theory through. Unless the shooters were standing shoulder to shoulder, the problem is the logic about the number of shooters, number of shots, and the number of shells does not work. Three shots fired, two shooters. with three shells matched to the carcano but being found in just one location. Were they passing the rifle between them?

Brother Rob, you made this statement about Sen Russell. It seems fairly straight forward. Sen Russell believed JBC was struck by a seperate shot and then you added that meant a second shooter. There is nothing in the wording to indicate Sen Russell believed there was four shots. Given the WC conclusion and your belief that there was two shooters, it would mean one assassin fired two shots and the other fired just one. The fragments and one bullet were matched to the Carcano found on the 6th floor and the carcano was matched to the three shells found on the 6th floor of the TSBD.

R Caprio: "Unfortunately for us, Senator Russell never seemed to grasp the significance of his statements regarding the SBT.  In his September 18, 1964, telephone conversation with LBJ, Russell said that his rejection of the SBT "don't [sic] make much difference" and was "just a little thing." He didn't seem (or want to see) grasp the fact that if the SBT was false there had to be more than one assassin involved."

It appears there is a very serious logic problem. In fact there is nothing logical about it. If there was three shots and a seperate  shot from a seperate assassin and then three shells being found on the 6th floor. In the end you are right, LHO--excuse me-- someone only fired twice. A long way around the issue but you stumbled onto the truth.

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Prove there was three shots instead of just state there was. Did you ever call a state Fish and Game office? They will help you understand one bullet going through multiple targets. Seems no one on the forum can help you.

What it means is that you lie about what other people say AND that you cannot support the WC's ridiculous SBT claim that you endorse.

You don't need all those words for that.

[Jack Nessan]

What it means is that you lie about what other people say AND that you cannot support the WC's ridiculous SBT claim that you endorse.

You don't need all those words for that.

No I think you are a little like a squid and you want to ink the waters and escape in the murk. This as a thread you started about three shots and two shooters and you are being asked to defend your theory and you cannot. Making claims and assertions about me doesn't change that fact. I think it is safe to say that this whole idea that the SBT isn't possible is just so much fluff and nothing more. You can't even prove there was three shots. You said you have but as it turns out that was what was not true.

[Andrew Mason]

The first statement from Altgens was read by Don Pardo. You are referencing the second bulletin he wrote 7 hours later. He went from stating two shots to two "bursts of noise."

Cite?
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Hudson sounds definite and never made a contradictory statement to it. Why would you who claim the head shot to be the last shot and yet quote Hudson?

Hudson's WC deposition is not reliable by itself because he contradicted his earlier statements in material particulars. And the problem is there is abundant other evidence that contradicts his statement that the head shot was the second shot.

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You chose Jackson. Two shots is a pattern with a time interval. Since when does "rapid succession" and all the other ways witnesses refer to how close the last two were equate to 2.3 seconds?

It doesn't. It just tells you that they were close together and after the midpoint - ie. after z250.

Hickey seen the bullet impact his head and the hair flew forward. Completely different.
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If Hickey was incorrect in his observation that the hair flew up but there was no impact, do you not find it rather strange that such an event is seen in the zfilm at about the time he said the second shot occurred (ie. after he turned forward - he is still looking rearward at z256 in Altgens #6) - and that this fits with Greer's turn, the forward uniform motion of JBC from z272-278, the change in appearance of the wrist (z271-72) and forward movement of the sun-visor (z271-72).  How does the wind make the sun visor move forward into it?

Altgens states it best. You yourself believe the headshot is the final shot.
Altgens:"There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty."

I agree.

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The influence was immediate. Within minutes, while on the way to Parkland, Merriman Smith issued a bulletin stating "three shots fired at the motorcade" and was that message was broadcast over the airwaves eight minutes later. Before the hour was up Jay Watson was already correcting Bill Newman that there was three shots. Altgens stated there was two. But like the WC stated:

WC: "....Soon after the three empty cartridges were found, officials at the scene decided that three shots were fired, and that conclusion was widely circulated by the press.

The press had already been reporting three shots long before the shells were found. They had been reporting it within minutes of the assassination and anybody with a radio or within earshot of a radio heard it.

What evidence do you have that media reports of 3 shots influenced all people who gave statements on Nov 22/63?  Why did some others say 2 or 3 shots? Why did Merriman Smith say 3 shots if he didn't hear 3 shots? What influenced him?

[Andrew Mason]

Hickey didn't say that. You're saying he said that.

??. Hickey said (18H762):

"The first shot of the second two seemed as if it missed because the hair
on the right side of his head flew forward and there didn't seem to be
any impact against his head . The last shot seemed to hit his head and
cause a noise at the point of impact which made him fall forward and
to his left again."

Are you suggesting I said something that is materially different?

Connally sails forward before the Z270s, doesn't he?

No.  You have to subtract the apparent motion due to the changing angle of the car to Zapruder.  There is less apparent motion as the angle approaches 90 degrees.  I have provided the analysis for you (click here) if you are having trouble seeing that JBC is sailing foward uniformly away from JFK and Jackie from z272-278.

A corner of the Stetson below the wrist comes into view and has a sunspot.

The appearance does change and it is not because of changing shadow. The amount of visible cuff increases by about an inch between these frames and continues.  That cannot be because of a shadow.  And it fits exactly with the movement of the sunvisor at z271-72.  You can see the changes to both at the same time here:

Maybe air flow creates ebbs and flows that make objects buckle in the wind? Anyway, that visor is rocking back-and-forth long before the Z270s.

Find another two successive frames where the visors move anywhere close to what occurs between z271 and z272.  You can tell that the visor moves because of the angle change.  If it is wind, how does it come from behind and why does it only affect the visor that was struck by a bullet fragment?

I started watching "The Making of a Murderer" (Part 2) last night. I can see already from the first chapter how sleezebag defense attorney Kathleen Zellner is conducting "tests" and consulting "experts" in such a way that the prosecution version is "impossible". When it comes to your pet theory, you're the same way.

Why is she a sleaze-bag (check your spelling)?   Because she is trying to provide every available defence that the law permits? Because she is putting forward every available argument on the evidence that the law permits?  Because she represents someone accused of a horrific crime?  Because she is arguing reasonable doubt, though the evidence may be fairly strong?  What is she supposed to do if the evidence is strongly against her client but there are good defences?  Is she supposed to judge her client and not provide a defence?  Your freedom and my freedom depend on defence counsel upholding these principles in the criminal justice system to ensure that no-one, guilty or not, is convicted if the admissible evidence does not establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

Just so you are aware, lawyers have to abide by very stringent ethical standards and can face serious discipline if they don't.  In my experience, defence lawyers are extremely careful in maintaining ethical standards.  There are a few who don't and they usually get disciplined or disbarred.  Defence counsel represent all sorts of accused persons. They do not do that because they agree with what the client may have done. They take on cases without judging their client.  They take a beating in the press from reporters at time like this recent case I had.   Defence lawyers do what they do because it is their profession and their profession requires it.

[Jack Nessan]

Cite?
----------------------------------------------Hudson's WC deposition is not reliable by itself because he contradicted his earlier statements in material particulars. And the problem is there is abundant other evidence that contradicts his statement that the head shot was the second shot. It doesn't. It just tells you that they were close together and after the midpoint - ie. after z250.
If Hickey was incorrect in his observation that the hair flew up but there was no impact, do you not find it rather strange that such an event is seen in the zfilm at about the time he said the second shot occurred (ie. after he turned forward - he is still looking rearward at z256 in Altgens #6) - and that this fits with Greer's turn, the forward uniform motion of JBC from z272-278, the change in appearance of the wrist (z271-72) and forward movement of the sun-visor (z271-72).  How does the wind make the sun visor move forward into it?
I agree.What evidence do you have that media reports of 3 shots influenced all people who gave statements on Nov 22/63?  Why did some others say 2 or 3 shots? Why did Merriman Smith say 3 shots if he didn't hear 3 shots? What influenced him?

Cite?
No it has been posted once, obviously it never registered just like everything else doesn't. Look it up, you need to learn there is a lot more to the witness statements than what is found on the HSCA Report.
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You are the one who quoted Hudson as proof a shot at Z270. Now Hudson is not a quality witness for you anymore because he stated the head shot occurred with the second shot and it doesn't fit the program?
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Midpoint at Z250?
So the shot could have been a shot at Z251 and that would translate to "rapid succession"?
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A bullet would have been traveling at 2000fps. What do you think it was like a cartoon where the bullet passing makes the hair move and Hickey seen that happen? For starters if the bullet would have went by JFK's head it would have hit JBC in the head not near the armpit.
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Why did Altgens, Jackie, Hill, Newman, Behm, etc say two if they didn't hear just two. Why did Moorman adjust her shot count down to two or three.  Altgens was an eyewitness and Merriman Smith was an earwitness. Out of 70 reporters in Dealey Plaza, Altgens was the only one that was an eyewitness. The only real thing that could have confused earwitnesses was echoes and not differentiating between the shot and the echo. ---"Rapid Succession"

"The buildings around the Plaza caused strong reverberations
or echoes that followed the initial sound by from 0.5 to 1.5 sec.
While these reflections caused no confusion to our listeners
who were prepared and expected to hear them they may well
inflated the number of shots reported by the suprised witnesses
during the assassination" HSCA Earwitness Analysis Report, pgs 135-137

 The best example of the confusion was  the 30th Anniversary Oral histories of Brandt and Templin. The first statement between them "was how many shots did you hear?" Brandt thought two and Templin thought three. Later Brandt added a shot just like so many others.