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Author Topic: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA  (Read 37171 times)

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #120 on: December 17, 2018, 05:42:58 PM »
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a fragment did strike the windshield frame and the sun visor above Greer.

Where did the fragment come from? Explain how a bullet that has a metal jacket can fragment.
Google "fragmentation metal jacketed bullet". Are you asking me how a jacketed bullet can be fired at something hard and fragment?  It is a matter of what the bullet is made of, what the target is made of and how fast it is going.  The jacket on Oswald's ammunition was copper and inside it was lead.  Neither are particularly strong metals.   Do you have any idea of the force that such a bullet moving at 2000 fps experiences in striking bone? 

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The dent in the chrome molding does NOT appear to have been made by a fragment....  I've seen a few bullet strikes and that dent appears to have been made by a large, heavy, low velocity, soft lead, projectile.....My guess would be; that the dent was created by a 45 caliber bullet....  The 45 ACP travels at subsonic velocity and has very poor penetrating ability....When it strikes a man or animal it packs a hell of a wallop ( like a baseball bat ) but usually doesn't penetrate very deeply.
Ballistic experts who understand the physics of bullets don't have to guess. As far as I can tell, no ballistic expert has opined that the dent was created by .45 caliber bullet. They have all said that it is consistent with having been made by a fragment from one of the MC bullets.

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And Rob seems to be on the right track....  A FMJ bullet fired from a carcano traveling at about 2000 fps, probably would have penetrated that chrome molding.  ( I have one of those molding from a Lincoln convertible and it is not heavy sheet metal)
I seriously doubt that an FMJ carcano bullet would have fragmented on impact with that sheet metal molding.
Your doubt, serious as I am sure it is, is not evidence.

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #120 on: December 17, 2018, 05:42:58 PM »


Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #121 on: December 17, 2018, 05:49:57 PM »
Google "fragmentation metal jacketed bullet". Are you asking me how a jacketed bullet can be fired at something hard and fragment?  It is a matter of what the bullet is made of, what the target is made of and how fast it is going.  The jacket on Oswald's ammunition was copper and inside it was lead.  Neither are particularly strong metals.   Do you have any idea of the force that such a bullet moving at 2000 fps experiences in striking bone? 
Ballistic experts who understand the physics of bullets don't have to guess. As far as I can tell, no ballistic expert has opined that the dent was created by .45 caliber bullet. They have all said that it is consistent with having been made by a fragment from one of the MC bullets.
Your doubt, serious as I am sure it is, is not evidence.

Andrew... you're FOS....

Online Andrew Mason

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #122 on: December 17, 2018, 10:13:11 PM »
Andrew... you're FOS....
Thank-you.   But you really ought to deal with the evidence.  While I certainly appreciate your recognition of the healthy state of my digestive system, one cannot rely on one's gut to determine what happened. 

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #122 on: December 17, 2018, 10:13:11 PM »


Offline Steve Howsley

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #123 on: December 17, 2018, 10:35:40 PM »
Andrew... you're FOS....

Why are you so angry all of the time? Try to calm down before you post.

Offline Walt Cakebread

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #124 on: December 18, 2018, 12:12:01 AM »
Why are you so angry all of the time? Try to calm down before you post.

Angry??...  I love a good fight,   It makes me happy, not angry....

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #124 on: December 18, 2018, 12:12:01 AM »


Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #125 on: December 19, 2018, 01:43:02 PM »
It takes two to make a useless discussion.  In any event, your theory that the overwhelming evidence of three shots and a 1......2...3 shot pattern being wrong is no less goofy than my "theory" that the evidence is not wrong.

The HSCA did a lot of useful things. But their comment about the supposed general unreliability of witnesses was a poor attempt to justify why none of the witnesses heard a phantom 4th shot that they concluded was fired.  In fact, there was no such shot. 

You have a long way to go to show that the witnesses, all 132 of them, thought they heard a phantom 3rd shot that did not exist.  BTW, what is your explanation as to how the "three shot" witness tampering got started? Why did so many witnesses go along with it?
No useless is accurate. Regurgitating the figures from a report the people who wrote it stated is faulty is pointless. You would think the fact that so many of the eyewitness's early statements changed would be a clue, but time and time again you quote Hickey's and Bennett's later statements not because they are informative but because they somehow in your mind support this whole bizarre shot pattern. A shot pattern that is contradicted by the cycle time of the carcano, the Zapruder Film, eyewitness statements and even the description of the shots in the statement. What is amazing is you never question the fact that the eyewitnesses dramatically altered their original statements and their statements in no way prove what you are advocating, yet are mindlessly quoting very specific witnesses as if their statements represent all witnesses.
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" BTW, what is your explanation as to how the "three shot" witness tampering got started? Why did so many witnesses go along with it?"

Maybe that is a question you need to answer for yourself. If you actually took the time to study what the witnesses originally stated happened instead of what they stated later, you would know the answer to that question. The problem will be it contradicts how many years of posting this nonsense?

Offline Jack Nessan

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #126 on: December 19, 2018, 01:48:30 PM »
Another LNer that can't support their belief with evidence. The evidence shows that LHO fired NO shots, but we are discussing the fictitious SBT.

It is clear that you just believe whatever the authorities tell you to believe.

What evidence? Who fired the two shots you are alluding to from the TSBD if not LHO?
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Brother Rob, as you know, at the core of SBT is the number of shots. Obviously two shots automatically indicates one of the bullets accounts for all seven wounds. You have already stated LHO -excuse me- someone fired two shots from the 6th floor of the TSBD and another unknown assassin fired another shot from somewhere else. The two shots fired from the TSBD account for which wounds? 1-3? 1-4?, 1-6? Why do you think the third shell found on the 6th floor wasn't fired that day?

Will this be another "Statements that Sinks the WC" topic? That series was so informative. If the authorities are wrong what is right? You were going to post the proof there was three shots? That also would be very interesting because two shots does prove SBT. You have to wonder did Sen Russell really believe there was only two shot. Was he responsible for the language in the WC conclusion about there only being two shots and the medias influence of the witnesses?

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #126 on: December 19, 2018, 01:48:30 PM »


Online Andrew Mason

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Re: WC Member's Views Confirmed By HSCA
« Reply #127 on: December 19, 2018, 09:53:51 PM »
No useless is accurate. Regurgitating the figures from a report the people who wrote it stated is faulty is pointless. You would think the fact that so many of the eyewitness's early statements changed would be a clue, but time and time again you quote Hickey's and Bennett's later statements not because they are informative but because they somehow in your mind support this whole bizarre shot pattern. A shot pattern that is contradicted by the cycle time of the carcano, the Zapruder Film, eyewitness statements and even the description of the shots in the statement.
The zfilm does not tell you by itself when the first two shots occurred, so the zfilm does not contradict the 1.......2....3 pattern.   The shot pattern itself: 1......2....3 does not conflict with the cycle time of the Carcano.  The MC was fired 3 times in 4.6 seconds by an FBI agent with aimed shots.  Oswald had a strap and boxes to make it easier to keep the gun from moving during reloading.  So unless the last two shots were much less than 2.3 seconds there would not be a problem.   
Nor does it conflict with the witnesses: there were witnesses who recalled the 1.......2....3 pattern who said there was about 2 seconds between the last two shots e.g. Robert Jackson 2H159; Roger Craig 6H263) or 2-3 seconds (Sweatt 19H531;Decker ) or 3 seconds (A. Rowland 19H494) or 2:1 (Ralph Yarborough 7H439;  Earl Cabell 7H478).  Emmett Hudson stated to the FBI that the last two were 'just about as fast as you could expect a man to operate a bolt action rifle' or words that effect (CD5).   

Several others recalled three shots that were evenly spaced (Clifton Carter, Delores Kounas, James Romack, Jack Watson) or "almost/approximately/pretty well" evenly spaced (James Altgens, Marrion Baker, Thomas Dillard, Ronald Fischer, Phil Willis).

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What is amazing is you never question the fact that the eyewitnesses dramatically altered their original statements and their statements in no way prove what you are advocating, yet are mindlessly quoting very specific witnesses as if their statements represent all witnesses.
I see that you have not read my paper.   The fact is, very few dramatically altered their original statments on the number or pattern of the shots.  The only one I can recall off hand was Emmett Hudson:  in his FBI made a few days after the assassination he recalled the 1.....2...3 pattern and said the last two were about as fast as one could fire with a bolt action; in his WC testimony 8 months later he said they were about evenly spaced over a 2 minute period.  If you disagree, give us some examples, don't just wave your hands and say "the eyewitnesses dramatically altered their statements". I have given you ALL the witness evidence bearing on the shot pattern ... but you have to read my paper.
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" BTW, what is your explanation as to how the "three shot" witness tampering got started? Why did so many witnesses go along with it?"

Maybe that is a question you need to answer for yourself. If you actually took the time to study what the witnesses originally stated happened instead of what they stated later, you would know the answer to that question. The problem will be it contradicts how many years of posting this nonsense?
I have answered it - for myself and for others because I have actually provided a detailed paper and analysis.   I have taken the time to study what the witnesses originally stated. Read my paper.