At which Zframe was JFK clear of the oak tree from the SN?

[John Iacoletti]

Go by what you see in the Z film.  Film doesn't lie. The timing is more closely to 5.8 - 6 seconds. But let's not argue milliseconds here - there's no way a shooter up on the 6th floor could have gotten all of those shots off, proving conspiracy.

But people's interpretations of films can lie.  For example, any attempt to pinpoint when the first shot occurred (if there even was a shot before JFK emerged from the sign) is subjective guesswork.

[Michael Walton]

That's kind of sort of what I mean.  For example, I've read people say that the reason his head goes quickly over to the right before the sign comes on is because he was reacting to shots.

But elsewhere, there's a more plausible reason why it happened - those group of clapping women over on the curb yelled out, "Mr. President...over here!" and that's what he did. He looked over there and then waved and then his arm kind of freezes in mid wave until the first shot.

Look through the footage of the parade before Dealey.  The guy was was doing all manner of things - waving, turning, fluffing his his hair, leaning forward, talking to Connally, etc. There's even a clip where he waves and his arm stops in mid air just like it looks as he reappears from the sign.

Nothing violent starts until his hands snap up in front of face, which is where the first shot starts.

[Andrew Mason]

But people's interpretations of films can lie.  For example, any attempt to pinpoint when the first shot occurred (if there even was a shot before JFK emerged from the sign) is subjective guesswork.

Not exactly "subjective" or "guesswork".  We have evidence  that bears on this issue. We see JFK reacting to his throat wound by z224/225 when he first appears from behind the sign, so the shot was before then.

We also have witnesses along Elm who identified the location of President relative to where they were standing at the time of the first shot.  Those positions are all pretty consistent and fit with what witnesses in the motorcade said about where they were when the first shot occurred and consistent with where the photographers Hugh Betzner and Phil Willis put the first shot: Somewhere between z190 and z200.

[John Iacoletti]

Not exactly "subjective" or "guesswork".  We have evidence  that bears on this issue. We see JFK reacting to his throat wound by z224/225 when he first appears from behind the sign, so the shot was before then.

We also have witnesses along Elm who identified the location of President relative to where they were standing at the time of the first shot.  Those positions are all pretty consistent and fit with what witnesses in the motorcade said about where they were when the first shot occurred and consistent with where the photographers Hugh Betzner and Phil Willis put the first shot: Somewhere between z190 and z200.

I'm talking about people who claim to be able to tell when the first shot occurred by looking at the film.  I would also disagree that the witnesses are "pretty consistent", but that's a different issue.

[Andrew Mason]

That's kind of sort of what I mean.  For example, I've read people say that the reason his head goes quickly over to the right before the sign comes on is because he was reacting to shots.

But elsewhere, there's a more plausible reason why it happened - those group of clapping women over on the curb yelled out, "Mr. President...over here!" and that's what he did. He looked over there and then waved and then his arm kind of freezes in mid wave until the first shot.

The turn to the right and the wave toward Mary Woodward is exactly what she described the President did immediately before that first "horrible ear-shattering noise".  No a single person said he reacted to the first shot by smiling and waving let alone for 3 seconds.  They said he reacted immediately in a way that suggested he was hit by it. There are over 20 such witnesses who said JFK reacted to the first shot.

Look through the footage of the parade before Dealey.  The guy was was doing all manner of things - waving, turning, fluffing his his hair, leaning forward, talking to Connally, etc. There's even a clip where he waves and his arm stops in mid air just like it looks as he reappears from the sign.

Nothing violent starts until his hands snap up in front of face, which is where the first shot starts.

So you think he had a premonition of the first shot a few frames before it hit him?:

[Andrew Mason]

I'm talking about people who claim to be able to tell when the first shot occurred by looking at the film.  I would also disagree that the witnesses are "pretty consistent", but that's a different issue.

Ok. I agree that one needs more than the zfilm alone to determine when either of the first two shots occurred. 

On the issue of witnesses, witness testimony rarely matches perfectly and is rarely exact.  The question is whether the witness evidence is consistent with a particular shot time or not. 

According to Betzner and Hughes the first shot was after they exposed their film.  They are consistent with a first shot after z186.  The witnesses in the President's car, the President's security car, the  VP car, VP security car, and the Cabell car put the first shot 1. after the president's car had gone some distance down Elm street 2. after the President's security car had finished the turn and was proceeding down Elm St. 3. just after the VP car had completed the turn 4. just before the VP security car was about to finish the turn 5. as the Cabell car was facing the TSBD.  Those are all consistent with a first shot after z190 and inconsistent with a shot earlier than that.  Witnesses along Elm St. such as Mary Woodward said the first shot was just as JFK went by. She was standing opposite the President at about z192. Others around her said much the same thing.

[Michael Walton]

The turn to the right and the wave toward Mary Woodward is exactly what she described the President did immediately before that first "horrible ear-shattering noise".  No a single person said he reacted to the first shot by smiling and waving let alone for 3 seconds.  They said he reacted immediately in a way that suggested he was hit by it. There are over 20 such witnesses who said JFK reacted to the first shot.
So you think he had a premonition of the first shot a few frames before it hit him?:

Here are two other photos taken prior to the shooting.  They look almost identical to that Z frame you have here.

https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/jfk-final-minutes-03.jpg

https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/john-f-kennedy-papers-assassination.jpg

Now tell me...

Why would anything in that Z frame tell you it's sinister and the other two are not?

As I said before, he was moving around throughout the parade just like the Z frame you have and just like the images above. It's only 1/18 of a second later that the first shot was fired, hitting him in the throat and then the next shot hitting him in the back pushing him slightly forward, that you see him change from a hanging wave to being injured.

As I said before, he was NOT hit earlier than that.  The oak tree was blocking the view then and the planners, if they had started earlier, would have been the biggest dumb asses on Earth to blow the story by doing so earlier.

As for witnesses, there are too many to mention instances from that day where one person said they saw this while someone else next to them said they saw or heard something completely different.

The visual proof is in the film.