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Framing a patsy  (Read 38666 times)

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    I agree with your first paragraph.  I think it's somewhat incredible to suggest Oswald was framed - as Bill suggests below, if Oswald was meant to be a patsy, there would have needed to be a lot more control of his movements to ensure he was where he needed to be.  And there is absolutely no evidence of this.  I also tend to agree that the most aggressive CTers tend to focus only on clearing Oswald (which is pretty tough to do) and have lost any focus on trying to find out what really happened on that day.

    I have a bit more trouble with the second paragraph though.  I don't think there's any Lone Nut in Oswald whatsoever, and in spite of the heckling I've taken for my feelings about it, I think his midnight press conference is the most telling 45 seconds of the entire day.  The careful and calm way in which he "denies" his involvement - he actually only denies being charged.  It seems that the "Oswald is innocent" camp feels that this is proof he's just a patsy, but I think it proves exactly the opposite.  Those 30-40 seconds, to me, show an operative caught behind enemy lines, reciting a carefully planned denial that isn't far above name,rank, and serial number.

    (Hypothetically) If Oswald read from the Communist literature he had and the socialist newspapers he received, he would have been fed notions like:

    • left-leaners are routinely "shot" while on the way to the police station
    • that all "authorities" are monolithically ultra-right and to be resisted
    • in America--one with a political motivation should seek out the ACLU
    • having a political motivation justifies the action and reduces the victim to a symbol
    • demand your "rights" (Oswald even mentioned his hygienic rights)
    • deny all involvement (why help the dreaded authorities and ruin the ACLU's case?)

    The Warren Commission couldn't promote too much of that interpretation because it was inconclusive and many Americans identified with some of what Oswald represented and some supported the ACLU (for example: Bob Dylan got into hot water with an Oswald comment in 1964).

    In 1970, a writer named Albert H. Newman released his book "The Assassination of John F. Kennedy: The Reasons Why" that did explore the influence of the literature on Oswald. Newman added something else: that Oswald was listening to Radio Havana in Dallas (Newman found that Oswald's radio had a shortwave band and that the English-language broadcasts began at 9 and 11 evenings CST and reached Dallas; he suggested this was why Oswald liked to be alone in his boardinghouse room).

    Newman:

    "A personal listening check in the summer of 1966 with the cheapest shortwave transistor portable I could find (it was under $12) disclosed that in the Dallas area Radio Havana was consistently the strongest signal in the forty-nine-meter band (at 6.135 megacycles), registering two or three times the strength observable in New York."

    It was suggested that Oswald would not have gone out without a plan and exit strategy on the scale of the Walker shooting. But, if we believe Marina, one interpretation of an April 1963 incident has Oswald taking his pistol and saying he's going after Nixon because of the headline in that morning's Dallas paper: "Nixon Calls for Decision to Force Reds Out of Cuba". There are other interpretations of the incident, but that one would suggest that Oswald was willing to throw caution to the wind, act impulsively and take his chances.

    Seems his targets were escalating as he became emboldened with having avoided consequences: Gen. Walker, former-VP Nixon, and finally Kennedy.

    If he was set-up, Marina revealing the hotheaded Nixon episode to, say, one of the deMohrenschildts would put him further onto the conspirators' radar. They now knew he capable of going after a national leader.[/list]


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    « Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 05:03:54 PM by Jerry Organ »

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    Oswald applied for 4 jobs in Oct63 and was rejected from them all!
    If Oswald was successful at any of these job applications, JFK would have lived through 22/11/63!....


    JohnM


    No there would have been another patsy ..


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    So just humor me for a bit. Let's say Oswald bought the rifle and pistol, shot at Walker, and somehow others found out about his little misadventure. Let's say via George De M. He is a person of interest now. He moves to NO. Hands out proCastro literature goes to Mexico and returns to Dallas. This may or may not be controlled by others at this time. He obtains a job at the TSBD. This does not require manipulation, he is just there. Now we have a left wing nut, already capable of attempted assassination, in place weeks before the motorcade. This may have required very little or no manipulation to this point. Only knowledge. The trick is, getting Oswald to bring the rifle to work and maybe keeping him somewhere away from watching JFK.

    The chance of this is very very small..Now lets throw in the fact that Oswald was allowed to get away and give a press conference and meet with his family...The whole theory just becomes really silly..Like someone who is sowrroied about getting caught they go through all of this, but the let Oswald talk to the world..Not going to happen..

    The simple facts that Oswald was allowed to talk and he and nobody else had their movements restricted that day in themsleves makes a conspiracy very very unlikely..





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    « Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 06:06:20 PM by Brian Walker »

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    Why do you think it would take a lot of manipulation to bring the motorcade in front of the TSBD? Anyone with a map of Dallas could tell you this was the most direct route from Love Field through downtown Dallas to the Trade Mart. That simple part of the plan could have been figured out months beforehand.

    From memory: the Main Street portion of the route that was taken was referred to as the traditional parade route through Dallas. However, the parades and such tended to go the other way. Still, the same route could be used going either way.

    From the WCR: The Dallas SS office were first notified of the visit and given three potential luncheon sites to check out on Nov. 4. Kenneth O'Donnell decided on the luncheon site on Nov. 14, the day after SS advance-agent SA Lawson firsthand evaluated the security at the tentative site: the Trade Mart, and reported back. Lawson and SAIC-Dallas Sorrells then had to figure out the motorcade route. They established the route (timing it by driving over it and taking into account DPD changes) on Nov. 18.

    Conspirators would have known for sure of the luncheon site and likely motorcade route by Nov. 14. Prior to that, most would have assumed there would be a Main Street (or downtown street) parade because of the need to get votes. However, they had no way of knowing until Nov. 14 if the motorcade was go through Dealey Plaza on Main (as one of the sites, I believe, would have meant), or go the Elm Street way. The Main Street straight-through-route would complicate things for placing a gunman in the Depository.

    Then again, if the motorcade did go straight through DP on Main, the conspirators could simply have Oswald--assuming they wanted him as patsy that badly--detained and being set-up on the South Knoll. But then again, the South Knoll is pretty exposed and would have had more people there if the motorcade had gone through on Main. Well then, they shift the firing point to the building under construction.


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    Why do you think it would take a lot of manipulation to bring the motorcade in front of the TSBD? Anyone with a map of Dallas could tell you this was the most direct route from Love Field through downtown Dallas to the Trade Mart. That simple part of the plan could have been figured out months beforehand.

    Months beforehand is impossible.  The decision to go to the Trade Mart was made only days before the assassination by the advance SS agent.  So no one even at the highest levels could know that fact until only a few days before the assassination.  To ensure the motorcade went past the TSBD would have required SS participation and the highest levels of government.  No small scale operation.  


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    "The human mind is our fundamental resource." JFK


    Friday, 15 c. November 1963
     "A change in the route of Kennedy's Dallas motorcade is made by a person or persons unknown?

     
    What was announced on this date was not a change in the motorcade route, but the site selected for the luncheon. There had been a feud
    over which site to use, and selection of the Trade Mart was made by White House aide Ken O'Donnell, in consultation with Bill Moyers,
    and was due to "unbearable" pressure from Connally to have the luncheon at the Trade Mart instead of the Women's Building.
    Dallas SS agent in charge Forrest Sorrels then selected the Elm Street route as the "most direct" route to the Trade Mart, considering
    the presence of a raised divider which would have to be driven over if Main Street were used to reach the expressway. Continuing down
    Main to Industrial Boulevard was rejected, in consultation with Asst. Police Chief George Lumpkin, because of the undesirable neighborhood."

     
    From HSCA v. 11:
     
    (Advance man) Bruno's explanation of how the matter was finally resolved is found in his journal in the entries of November 14 and 15, 1963:
    November 14-- The feud became so bitter that I went to the White House to ask Bill Moyers, then Deputy Director of the Peace Corps, and close
    to both Connally and Johnson, if he would try to settle the dispute for the good of the President and his party. On this day, Kenney O'Donnell
    decided that there was no other way but to go to the mart. November 15--The White House announced that the Trade Mart had been approved. I met
    with O'Donnell and Moyers who said that Connally was unbearable and on the verge of cancelling the trip. They decided they had to let the
    Governor have his way. (149) . . .
     
    As the Dallas SAIC, Forrest Sorrels told the Warren Commission, he selected the Main-Houston-Elm turn through Dealey Plaza because it was
    the "most direct" route to the Trade Mart. (189) Sorrels' questioning by Warren Commission staff counsel Samuel M. Stern, however, prevented
    a total picture of motorcade route logistics from emerging. Stern asked Sorrels why the expressway was proached from the Elm Street ramp
    instead of from Main Street just beyond the triple overpass at the westen boundary of Dealey Plaza. Sorrels explained that the size and
    cumbersomeness of the motorcade, along with the presence of a raised divider separating the Elm Street lane from the Elm Street lane at
    the foot of the ramp up to the expressway, deterred him from trying to route the motorcade under and through the overpass on Main Street.
    Such a route would have assigned the drivers in the motorcade the almost impossible task of making a reverse S-turn in order to cross over
    the raised divider to get from the Main Street lane into the Elm Street lane. (190) However, this question-and-answer process failed to make
    clear that the Trade Mart was accessible from beyond the triple overpass in such a way that it was not necessary to enter the Elm Street ramp
    to the expressway. The motorcade could have progressed westward through Dealey Plaza on Main Street, passed under the overpass, and then
    proceeded on Industrial Boulevard to the Trade Mart. (191)

    George L. Lumpkin, assistant police chief in Dallas in 1963, was consulted by the Secret Service about the motorcade aspect of security
    planning. (192) Lumpkin explained that the alternate route, continuing straight on Main through and beyond Dealey Plaza and thereby reaching
    the Trade Mart on Industrial Boulevard, was rejected because the neighborhood surrounding Industrial Boulevard was "filled with winos and
    broken pavement." (193) Additionally, Lumpkin stated that Kennedy wanted exposure and that there would have been no crowds on Industrial Boulevard.
    (194)

    Advance Agent Lawson informed committee investigators that he had nothing to do with the selection of the Main-Houston-Elm turn before November
    14, since only Main Street, not Dealey Plaza, had been selected for the motorcade at that time. He did not specify the exact date on which the
    turn was selected nor did he identify the person selecting the turn.(195) Sorrels stated that he and Lawson did drive the entire route together,
    but did not specify when this occurred. (196)

    Sorrels' Warren Commission exhibit No. 4 suggested that both men drove the entire route on November 18. (197) It is not certain that both
    men knew about the turn earlier than this date.


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    Friday, 15 c. November 1963
     "A change in the route of Kennedy's Dallas motorcade is made by a person or persons unknown?

     
    What was announced on this date was not a change in the motorcade route, but the site selected for the luncheon. There had been a feud
    over which site to use, and selection of the Trade Mart was made by White House aide Ken O'Donnell, in consultation with Bill Moyers,
    and was due to "unbearable" pressure from Connally to have the luncheon at the Trade Mart instead of the Women's Building.
    Dallas SS agent in charge Forrest Sorrels then selected the Elm Street route as the "most direct" route to the Trade Mart, considering
    the presence of a raised divider which would have to be driven over if Main Street were used to reach the expressway. Continuing down
    Main to Industrial Boulevard was rejected, in consultation with Asst. Police Chief George Lumpkin, because of the undesirable neighborhood."

     
    From HSCA v. 11:
     
    (Advance man) Bruno's explanation of how the matter was finally resolved is found in his journal in the entries of November 14 and 15, 1963:
    November 14-- The feud became so bitter that I went to the White House to ask Bill Moyers, then Deputy Director of the Peace Corps, and close
    to both Connally and Johnson, if he would try to settle the dispute for the good of the President and his party. On this day, Kenney O'Donnell
    decided that there was no other way but to go to the mart. November 15--The White House announced that the Trade Mart had been approved. I met
    with O'Donnell and Moyers who said that Connally was unbearable and on the verge of cancelling the trip. They decided they had to let the
    Governor have his way. (149) . . .
     
    As the Dallas SAIC, Forrest Sorrels told the Warren Commission, he selected the Main-Houston-Elm turn through Dealey Plaza because it was
    the "most direct" route to the Trade Mart. (189) Sorrels' questioning by Warren Commission staff counsel Samuel M. Stern, however, prevented
    a total picture of motorcade route logistics from emerging. Stern asked Sorrels why the expressway was proached from the Elm Street ramp
    instead of from Main Street just beyond the triple overpass at the westen boundary of Dealey Plaza. Sorrels explained that the size and
    cumbersomeness of the motorcade, along with the presence of a raised divider separating the Elm Street lane from the Elm Street lane at
    the foot of the ramp up to the expressway, deterred him from trying to route the motorcade under and through the overpass on Main Street.
    Such a route would have assigned the drivers in the motorcade the almost impossible task of making a reverse S-turn in order to cross over
    the raised divider to get from the Main Street lane into the Elm Street lane. (190) However, this question-and-answer process failed to make
    clear that the Trade Mart was accessible from beyond the triple overpass in such a way that it was not necessary to enter the Elm Street ramp
    to the expressway. The motorcade could have progressed westward through Dealey Plaza on Main Street, passed under the overpass, and then
    proceeded on Industrial Boulevard to the Trade Mart. (191)

    George L. Lumpkin, assistant police chief in Dallas in 1963, was consulted by the Secret Service about the motorcade aspect of security
    planning. (192) Lumpkin explained that the alternate route, continuing straight on Main through and beyond Dealey Plaza and thereby reaching
    the Trade Mart on Industrial Boulevard, was rejected because the neighborhood surrounding Industrial Boulevard was "filled with winos and
    broken pavement." (193) Additionally, Lumpkin stated that Kennedy wanted exposure and that there would have been no crowds on Industrial Boulevard.
    (194)

    Advance Agent Lawson informed committee investigators that he had nothing to do with the selection of the Main-Houston-Elm turn before November
    14, since only Main Street, not Dealey Plaza, had been selected for the motorcade at that time. He did not specify the exact date on which the
    turn was selected nor did he identify the person selecting the turn.(195) Sorrels stated that he and Lawson did drive the entire route together,
    but did not specify when this occurred. (196)

    Sorrels' Warren Commission exhibit No. 4 suggested that both men drove the entire route on November 18. (197) It is not certain that both
    men knew about the turn earlier than this date.


    This proves my original point which was that if the motorcade route was altered to ensure that it went by the TSBD because Oswald worked there, then it is a high level job involving a large group of conspirators.  It's not a simple frame up to pull that off per Colin's scenario which is premised on a conspiracy not requiring a great deal of manipulation to frame Oswald.  It's complete bunk, though, that the motorcade route was altered for this purpose.  I'm just playing along.


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    Richard, you hit the nail on the head.
    This is all the evidence you need to prove that there was no conspiracy, Oswald applied for 4 jobs in Oct63 and was rejected from them all!
    If Oswald was successful at any of these job applications, JFK would have lived through 22/11/63!
    At 17:35 in the following video the locations of these jobs is revealed to be no where near the Presidential Parade!
    As a guest, you are not allowed to view links. <a href="http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?action=register">Register</a>&nbsp;or&nbsp;<a href="http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?action=login">Login</a>



    JohnM


    Boy, you really are clueless. If you think Oswald was the assassin he could have shot from anywhere. Not just the TSBD. If he had gotten a job at the Dal-Tex you'd be saying the same thing
    about the Dal-Tex instead of the TSBD. The fact is that the motorcade was designed to pass hundreds of office buildings. That's politics.
    Now if you instead prefer all powerful conspirators then they would be able to change the route of the motorcade to take it past Oswald wherever he would be working.
    What about the shooter on the grassy knoll. Do you require that he have a job which placed him in that spot? Maybe assistant groundskeeper or parking lot attendant?
    Your logic is infantile.


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