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Powell vs Dillard  (Read 48033 times)
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just change "https" to "http"

Thanks, John.  thumbs1xx


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False dichotomy.  There are other possibilities.  For example, Tom Alyea reported seeing Fritz picking up the shells before any Studebaker photos were taken.

No, you are offering your own opinion ("empty Carcano shells fell into the "sniper's nest"  floor area") and basing your opinion on your spin on the evidence.  I never claimed the shells were planted.  I don't have to cancel out your opinion or prove you wrong.  I'm just showing that your conclusion is speculation, not fact.

Again:  how do you know what frames the woundings occurred?  How did the "Lost Bullet" people?

That's a pretty bold claim.  We're talking about only a few square feet of floor space.  Define "very good match".  Exactly how far away can the test shell be and still be considered a "hit"?  This experiment is one giant pile of confirmation bias.

As I already mentioned, "consistent with" just means not impossible.  It's not an indication that it actually happened that way.

No, the shell evidence just shows that there were 3 shells there.


Deputy Mooney finds the shells before Fritz stupidly moves them. He says this, to the WC, about the accuracy of Studebaker's photo:

Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir; he was the first officer that picked them up, as far as I know, because I stood there and watched him go over and pick them up and look at them. As far as I could tell, I couldn't even tell what caliber they were, because I didn't get down that close to them. They were brass cartridges, brass shells.
Mr. BALL - Is this the position of the cartridges as shown on 510, as you saw them?
Mr. MOONEY - Yes, sir. That is just about the way they were laying, to the best of my knowledge. I do know there was--one was further away, and these other two were relatively close together--on this particular area. But these cartridges--this one and this one looks like they are further apart than they actually was.
Mr. BALL - Which ones?
Mr. MOONEY - This one and this one.
Mr. BALL - Now, two cartridges were close together, is that right?
Mr. MOONEY - The one cartridge here, by the wall facing, is right. And this one and this one, they were further away from this one.
Mr. BALL - Well--
Mr. MOONEY - But as to being positive of the exact distance
Mr. BALL - You think that the cartridges are in the same position as when you saw them in this picture 510?
Mr. MOONEY - As far as my knowledge, they are; pretty close to right.

"The Lost Bullet" recreation produces strikingly similar results. The bullets will never fall into the same positions in exact terms, yet they do fall into two distinct areas, and the results are a good match for Mooney's description and Studebaker's photo.

This statement in your text jumps out at me: "This experiment is one giant pile of confirmation bias."  Well, if you resist the explanation of the shells falling from a Carcano then, yes it is absolutely conformation bias - but by a conspirator who is is confirming a scenario before that scenario has even been proventested, a scenario that is matched by Zapruder frames yet to be processed.

Can you explain how a conspirator can place empty shells into place that confirm the official scenario based on Zapruder frames that have yet to be exposed? And shot angles that have yet to be tested? Mooney's testimony chimes with the shot angles for the Zapruer frames. Even if the "Lost Bullet" programme is wrong about the second bullet angle (a few frames around the time the car is at the sign area on Elm St), the results will be similar to Mooney's recollection, as the crouching sniper is now aiming at a receeding car. The shells will fall into the area close to the shooter.

You only have two choices:

ONE
Conspirator plants bullets in a formation that, amazingly, are a good match for the "Lost Bullet" recreation that uses Zapruder film as it's guide - which is this scenario:
     far flung bullet = miss shot from sniper standing up
     shot occuring around the time the car is at the sign
     head shot
with the bullet shells falling in a way that suggests the shooter initially aimed at the car when it was close to him, then crouched, and was then aiming at a receeding car.

No supporting evidence for this conspiracy scenario.

TWO
Shells fell from rifle fired from 6th floow window at the motorcade, at 12.30.

Option 2 has the following supporting evidence to back it up:

Three loud reports ring out - many identify them as rifle shots. That would suggest the possibility that three shells might well be found after the attack.
Connally's wounds suggest there is a rear shooter aiming down onto the car
Brennan sees a man wielding what he takes to be a high power rifle from: sixth floor now infamous window. Aiming down at the motorcade.
Brennan thinks the shooter is standing but admits in WC testimony that he thought the workers were also standing - meaning he saw the shooter crouching in all likelihood.
Jackson sees what he takes to be a rifle being drawn into the same window that Brennan saw the shooter: (his colleagues recall him saying he saw this)
An expert-led laser experiment in Dealey Plaza narrows the shooter's likely position to either the 6th floor snipers nest window or the DalTex 2nd floor window.
Mooney finds three spent Carcano hulls on the floor of the 6th floor far east window where Brennan saw a gunman and Jackson saw a rifle.


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« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 12:00:12 AM by Stuart Hill »

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Ive removed the word "proven" and replaced with "tested" in above post.


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Deputy Mooney finds the shells before Fritz stupidly moves them. He says this, to the WC, about the accuracy of Studebaker's photo:

Are you agreeing that Fritz picked up the shells and put them back down before the Studebaker photos were taken?  Was he just lucky in getting them back in the right places?  You are sure putting a lot of blind faith in Mooney's "pretty close to right".  What does that even mean?

Quote
You only have two choices:

No, you don't only have two choices.

Quote
ONE
Conspirator plants bullets in a formation that, amazingly, are a good match for the "Lost Bullet" recreation that uses Zapruder film as it's guide - which is this scenario:
     far flung bullet = miss shot from sniper standing up

Foul.  What is your basis for determining that the first shot was taken standing up and when it happened?  The test angle depends on knowing that.  What is your criteria for calling the "Lost Bullet" test a good match while at the same time acknowledging that the Studebaker photo doesn't even show the original position of the shells?  What they did was they started with a pre-assumption about what happened, saw where the shells landed and said "close enough".  Did they try having a middle-aged police captain randomly bounce three shells off of some boxes in an area that's only a few square feet to begin with and say "close enough"?  Where's the control for this experiment?

Quote
TWO
Shells fell from rifle fired from 6th floow window at the motorcade, at 12.30.

Option 2 has the following supporting evidence to back it up:

Three loud reports ring out - many identify them as rifle shots. That would suggest the possibility that three shells might well be found after the attack.
Connally's wounds suggest there is a rear shooter aiming down onto the car
Brennan sees a man wielding what he takes to be a high power rifle from: sixth floor now infamous window. Aiming down at the motorcade.
Brennan thinks the shooter is standing but admits in WC testimony that he thought the workers were also standing - meaning he saw the shooter crouching in all likelihood.
Jackson sees what he takes to be a rifle being drawn into the same window that Brennan saw the shooter: (his colleagues recall him saying he saw this)
An expert-led laser experiment in Dealey Plaza narrows the shooter's likely position to either the 6th floor snipers nest window or the DalTex 2nd floor window.
Mooney finds three spent Carcano hulls on the floor of the 6th floor far east window where Brennan saw a gunman and Jackson saw a rifle.

None of that tells you that the shells on the floor on the TSBD (or the ones in evidence) were ejected from a rifle in the process of shooting the president.


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« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 12:22:51 AM by John Iacoletti »

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Are you agreeing that Fritz picked up the shells and put them back down before the Studebaker photos were taken?  Was he just lucky in getting them back in the right places?  You are sure putting a lot of blind faith in Mooney's "pretty close to right".  What does that even mean?

No, you don't only have two choices.

Foul.  What is your basis for determining that the first shot was taken standing up and when it happened?  The test angle depends on knowing that.  What is your criteria for calling the "Lost Bullet" test a good match while at the same time acknowledging that the Studebaker photo doesn't even show the original position of the shells?  What they did was they started with a pre-assumption about what happened, saw where the shells landed and said "close enough".  Did they try having a middle-aged police captain randomly bounce three shells off of some boxes in an area that's only a few square feet to begin with and say "close enough"?  Where's the control for this experiment?

None of that tells you that the shells on the floor on the TSBD (or the ones in evidence) were ejected from a rifle in the process of shooting the president.

Are you agreeing that Fritz picked up the shells and put them back down before the Studebaker photos were taken?  Was he just lucky in getting them back in the right places?  You are sure putting a lot of blind faith in Mooney's "pretty close to right".  What does that even mean?

If you recreated the same experiment as the "Lost Bullet" recreation you could never get the shells to eject in exactly the same place - but they will go into the two distinct areas, if the recreation follows the scenario put forward by the Warren Commission - a missed first shot as the car passes close by the shooter who must stand to take this shot, then a second shot at about the point the car has reached the sign, with the shooter now crouching, a third head shot at frame 313 Zapruder, with the shooter still crouching.

The standing shot causes a shell to be flung far to the shooter's right side.



The other two will be closer to reflect the stance change and the fact that the shooter is now aiming at a receding vehicle.



Mooney accepts Studebaker's photo, as a close match to his own recollection - he's happy with it so I am too. I suppose that means that when Fritz put the cartridges back, Mooney is saying to us that he felt they had been put back into those two distinct areas. That's all we need to get the match for the "Lost Bullet" - hulls in the distinct areas. So, the shells photographed are in the distinct areas that follow the Warren Commission scenario. Studebaker's photo is my proof that the first shot was taken whilst the shooter was standing. That stance will throw the shell into that distinct area, as we see recreated by the marine marksman in "The Lost Bullet". Mooney attests to this position:

"...I do know there was--one was further away, and these other two were relatively close together--on this particular area."

Regarding the two choices.
If you do NOT accept (and I do accept) that the shooter man pointing a rifle at the passing motorcade seen by Brennan, whose gun is also seen by Jackson, is shooting, then he's play-acting at being an assassin for a day. What else can he be doing? Then it follows that somebody has placed the shells into position in the snipers nest afterwards. A conspiracy. (and placed them into the two distinct areas in an amazing feat of foresight!).


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« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 08:12:22 PM by Stuart Hill »

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"Nicely presented though Stuart."

Thanks Barry.
Do you know when the photo I posted was taken that day? The man in the hard hat in the far right foreground looks like the hard hat man casually walking past the doorway in this clip here:

Start it at about 1min 39 - I think that is one of the 5th floor workers going back into the building (three year old memory on this I'm afraid). then you see the Hard Hat man appear from far left. That should help time the photo perhaps.

(can you help, I can't work out how to post video - do you use the flash button?)


You do use the flash button while highlighting the link yes Stuart and remove the "s" but on my last two visits I can't see any youtube videos here, can't even see ones I post but I got the link from quoting your post.

Anyway Murray said(perhaps to Trask) that he was on the scene shortly after the shooting and remembers taking that photo and why(the hysterical woman).
He reached the railroad yards pretty soon after that and one of his first images there is about 3 mins after the shooting, Euins for one is still walking around.
So that first image is somewhere around 2 minutes probably. Murray himself would have us believe that it is within a minute but although it's possible, I personally don't believe he got the news of something happening in the plaza that fast.
The Hughes scene you linked to is around 12:50pm we think and Brennan is in the doorway sheepishly pointing out Norman to the cops but yes the other HH man could have been to the RR Yards and back no problem.



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You do use the flash button while highlighting the link yes Stuart and remove the "s" but on my last two visits I can't see any youtube videos here, can't even see ones I post but I got the link from quoting your post.

Anyway Murray said(perhaps to Trask) that he was on the scene shortly after the shooting and remembers taking that photo and why(the hysterical woman).
He reached the railroad yards pretty soon after that and one of his first images there is about 3 mins after the shooting, Euins for one is still walking around.
So that first image is somewhere around 2 minutes probably. Murray himself would have us believe that it is within a minute but although it's possible, I personally don't believe he got the news of something happening in the plaza that fast.
The Hughes scene you linked to is around 12:50pm we think and Brennan is in the doorway sheepishly pointing out Norman to the cops but yes the other HH man could have been to the RR Yards and back no problem.



Great info, thanks, Barry. I've checked the photo in Robin Unger's excellent gallery - can't think why I didn't immediately go there!


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« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 07:22:35 PM by Stuart Hill »

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VIDEO FIND FOR FORUM USERS:

I've stumbled across an amazing (and still shocking in terms of content) assassination video that puts you into Dealey Plaza with full 360 degree movement as the Zapruder film is replayed over the 360 panorama. It's interactive in the point of view,  so you can move your virtual "head" at will (as if you are Zapruder moving his head). It should work with a VR headset. If you don't have a headset, wait for the images to look sharp - perhaps giving time for the video to load - then click and hold and drag with your mouse arrow pointer on the screen, the view will change accordingly.

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If the video appears jerky, try watching directly on the Youtube page.




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« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 01:11:04 AM by Stuart Hill »

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