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The evolution of CE 142 - what the flap?  (Read 199215 times)

Super Member
*****

Posts: 8086


I have decided to form a separate thread on CE 142 - the so called rifle case shaped bag that was "found" in the south east corner on the 6th floor of the TSBD, referred to as the SN. For the sake of brevity I am not going to reproduce all of the testimonial statement that was present in the original thread as we should all be aware of where to find it. I would like to highlight the main points and will build on it in time.

What did the WC state?

The WC had concluded that LHO brought in his MC rifle into the TSBD in a dismantled state concealed in the bag (CE 142) on the morning of 22/11/1963.

Two people witnessed seeing LHO holding a package that morning - Buell Wesley Frazier and his sister Linnie Mae Randle. Despite being shown the bag and an FBI replica bag, both witnesses estimated the bag that LHO had with him that morning was between 24 - 27.5 inches. The WC rejected their conclusions believing that they were mistaken.

The disassembled MC was 34.8 inches in length, the largest part being the wooden stock.

Jack Dougherty failed to see this package on LHO as he entered into the TSBD at ~ 8 am in the morning. The WC rejected his testimony believing that he was mistaken.

No one saw LHO with a package, or construct one, at any time prior to or on the day of the assassination.

When the SN was found on the 6th floor after the assassination, six detectives failed to see the bag in the SN, yet several detectives (from the crimes scene investigation team predominantly - Day, Studebaker, Johnson, Montgomery) recalled seeing the bag in several states - folded once, folded twice, unfolded.

The bag was dusted for fingerprints using magnetic powder by Studebaker/Day and no latent finger prints were detected. Mr Day wrote on the bag twice - 39 words in total before handing the bag over to the FBI.  

The bag was not photographed in situ or during a reconstruction of the crime scene. It was unsure who took ownership of the bag once it was dusted for fingerprints.

The bag was taken to the first floor (presumably with the MC rifle as well as Day stated he never left possession of it) and Mr Day and Mr Studebaker took a sample of paper and tape from the first floor (CE 677).

No one is certain what happened after that but Mr Montgomery was photographed holding a long bag coming out of the TSBD at ~ 3 pm.

This is the story describing what I believe occurred to the bag that Montgomery came out with to eventually become ("evolve") into CE 142.

Luke Mooney - one of the first Detectives to literally step into the SN fails to see the bag on the floor




Detective Montgomery comes out with a large bag upside down and with an object inserted into it

The object within the bag can not be full length as the bag collapses down to reveal a flat and smooth top. The bag is heavily crinkled down the open end and there are no definitive crease marks to indicate that the bag was folded into a small package as was described by several of the Detectives.



Detective Johnson and Mr Day bring out more evidence found on the 6th floor



A paper and tape sample were taken by Mr Day and Mr Studebaker from the first floor



The FBI make a replica bag to show witnesses



The paper and tape samples were taken from the first floor of the TSBD

The FBI obtained their paper and tape samples on a Sunday. When Mr Day and Mr Studebaker obtained their samples, it was likely that the employees were told to go home for the afternoon.



A bag was photographed in the FBI Crimes laboratory

Could this be the same bag that Montgomery took out of the TSBD? If it was, then there was an immediate issue - this bag did not possess a flap at one end.

This bag was also photographed being in close proximity to the blanket that was recovered in the Paines garage.



The FBI stained CE 142 with silver nitrate.

A partial palm and finger print was now found on the bag that belonged to Lee Harvey Oswald.

An FBI expert could not associate the bag with having carried CE 139, the MC rifle found on the 6th floor.

An FBI expert detailed how a fold was done to ensure that the bag was strong to hold a heavy object.

The FBI proved that the bag had to have been constructed in situ on the first floor because the tape had specific marking on it meaning it went through a specific tape dispenser that wetted the tape at the same time.

CE 142 matched CE 677.





The FBI sliced the bag so that both sides could be seen at the same time

What is obvious is that the bag had a flap at one end.



My analysis

Was the bag that Montgomery took out CE 142?

Yes it was.  thumbs1xx David Von Pein was correct in his statement  thumbs1xx





What was the issue if it was the same bag?

CE 142 contains a flap that was taped down that it originally did not possess when Montgomery took it out of the TSBD.



An examination of the end flap that was missing in the FBI crimes laboratory bag




It was very likely that the original bag was folded (to add a flap) and cut to make it appear smaller.

When one considers that there was an inconsistent description of the bag when "found", and inconsistent description on who handled it, no photograph of it, six Detectives failing to see the bag and no one knows how it ended up in Montgomery's hands, ended up changing structure to include a flap and definitive crease lines - one is highly suspicious of whether that bag was anywhere near the 6th floor.

Mr Day and Mr Studebaker were on the first floor with the rifle and we know that they took paper and tape. If you had the rifle in your possession wouldn't you wrap in up to conceal/protect it from the crowd outside? It was already dusted for prints by Day. Yet inexplicably Day walks out with the rifle and Montgomery walks out with the bag.

What the flap is going on?  rofl


-------------------------
« Last Edit: December 10, 2015, 05:20:57 AM by Tony Fratini »

   ReplyReply
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I have decided to form a separate thread on CE 142 - the so called rifle case shaped bag that was "found" in the south east corner on the 6th floor of the TSBD, referred to as the SN. For the sake of brevity I am not going to reproduce all of the testimonial statement that was present in the original thread as we should all be aware of where to find it. I would like to highlight the main points and will build on it in time.

What did the WC state?

The WC had concluded that LHO brought in his MC rifle into the TSBD in a dismantled state concealed in the bag (CE 142) on the morning of 22/11/1963.

Two people witnessed seeing LHO holding a package that morning - Buell Wesley Frazier and his sister Linnie Mae Randle. Despite being shown the bag and an FBI replica bag, both witnesses estimated the bag that LHO had with him that morning was between 24 - 27.5 inches. The WC rejected their conclusions believing that they were mistaken.

The disassembled MC was 34.8 inches in length, the largest part being the wooden stock.

Jack Dougherty failed to see this package on LHO as he entered into the TSBD at ~ 8 am in the morning. The WC rejected his testimony believing that he was mistaken.

No one saw LHO with a package, or construct one, at any time prior to or on the day of the assassination.

When the SN was found on the 6th floor after the assassination, six detectives failed to see the bag in the SN, yet several detectives (from the crimes scene investigation team predominantly - Day, Studebaker, Johnson, Montgomery) recalled seeing the bag in several states - folded once, folded twice, unfolded.

The bag was dusted for fingerprints using magnetic powder by Studebaker/Day and no latent finger prints were detected. Mr Day wrote on the bag twice - 39 words in total before handing the bag over to the FBI.  

The bag was not photographed in situ or during a reconstruction of the crime scene. It was unsure who took ownership of the bag once it was dusted for fingerprints.

The bag was taken to the first floor (presumably with the MC rifle as well as Day stated he never left possession of it) and Mr Day and Mr Studebaker took a sample of paper and tape from the first floor (CE 677).



No one is certain what happened after that but Mr Montgomery was photographed holding a long bag coming out of the TSBD at ~ 3 pm.

This is the story describing what I believe occurred to the bag that Montgomery came out with to eventually become ("evolve") into CE 142.

Luke Mooney - one of the first Detectives to literally step into the SN fails to see the bag on the floor




Detective Montgomery comes out with a large bag upside down and with an object inserted into it

The object within the bag can not be full length as the bag collapses down to reveal a flat and smooth top. The bag is heavily crinkled down the open end and there are no definitive crease marks to indicate that the bag was folded into a small package as was described by several of the Detectives.



Detective Johnson and Mr Day bring out more evidence found on the 6th floor



A paper and tape sample were taken by Mr Day and Mr Studebaker from the first floor



The FBI make a replica bag to show witnesses



The paper and tape samples were taken from the first floor of the TSBD

The FBI obtained their paper and tape samples on a Sunday. When Mr Day and Mr Studebaker obtained their samples, it was likely that the employees were told to go home for the afternoon.



A bag was photographed in the FBI Crimes laboratory

Could this be the same bag that Montgomery took out of the TSBD? If it was, then there was an immediate issue - this bag did not possess a flap at one end.

This bag was also photographed being in close proximity to the blanket that was recovered in the Paines garage.



The FBI stained CE 142 with silver nitrate.

A partial palm and finger print was now found on the bag that belonged to Lee Harvey Oswald.

An FBI expert could not associate the bag with having carried CE 139, the MC rifle found on the 6th floor.

An FBI expert detailed how a fold was done to ensure that the bag was strong to hold a heavy object.

The FBI proved that the bag had to have been constructed in situ on the first floor because the tape had specific marking on it meaning it went through a specific tape dispenser that wetted the tape at the same time.

CE 142 matched CE 677.





The FBI sliced the bag so that both sides could be seen at the same time

What is obvious is that the bag had a flap at one end.



My analysis

Was the bag that Montgomery took out CE 142?

Yes it was.  thumbs1xx David Von Pein was correct in his statement  thumbs1xx





What was the issue if it was the same bag?

CE 142 contains a flap that was taped down that it originally did not possess when Montgomery took it out of the TSBD.



An examination of the end flap that was missing in the FBI crimes laboratory bag




It was very likely that the original bag was folded (to add a flap) and cut to make it appear smaller.

When one considers that there was an inconsistent description of the bag when "found", and inconsistent description on who handled it, no photograph of it, six Detectives failing to see the bag and no one knows how it ended up in Montgomery's hands, ended up changing structure to include a flap and definitive crease lines - one is highly suspicious of whether that bag was anywhere near the 6th floor.

Mr Day and Mr Studebaker were on the first floor with the rifle and we know that they took paper and tape. If you had the rifle int your possession wouldn't you wrap in up to conceal/protect it from the crowd outside? It was already dusted for prints by Day. Yet inexplicably Day walks out with the rifle and Montgomery walks out with the bag.

What the flap is going on?  rofl

Mr Fratini,   Thank you for presenting this posting.  I don't intend to debate the entire post at this time.  My primary motive for responding is to express my gratitude to you for posting a very good photo of what the cops IMAGINED TO BE  a ""SNIPER'S NEST"  The first photo you show is CE 509 ) and it is an accurate photo of the so called "sniper's nest" as it appeared after the shooting.  Notice the shadow being cast on the box,  by the bottom sash of the window.  ANY PHOTO WHICH SHOWS A BOX ON THE WINDOW SILL IS A FAKE 


-------------------------

   ReplyReply
Super Member
*****

Posts: 10447


As a guest, you are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I have decided to form a separate thread on CE 142 - the so called rifle case shaped bag that was "found" in the south east corner on the 6th floor of the TSBD, referred to as the SN. For the sake of brevity I am not going to reproduce all of the testimonial statement that was present in the original thread as we should all be aware of where to find it. I would like to highlight the main points and will build on it in time.

What did the WC state?

The WC had concluded that LHO brought in his MC rifle into the TSBD in a dismantled state concealed in the bag (CE 142) on the morning of 22/11/1963.

Two people witnessed seeing LHO holding a package that morning - Buell Wesley Frazier and his sister Linnie Mae Randle. Despite being shown the bag and an FBI replica bag, both witnesses estimated the bag that LHO had with him that morning was between 24 - 27.5 inches. The WC rejected their conclusions believing that they were mistaken.

The disassembled MC was 34.8 inches in length, the largest part being the wooden stock.

Jack Dougherty failed to see this package on LHO as he entered into the TSBD at ~ 8 am in the morning. The WC rejected his testimony believing that he was mistaken.

No one saw LHO with a package, or construct one, at any time prior to or on the day of the assassination.

When the SN was found on the 6th floor after the assassination, six detectives failed to see the bag in the SN, yet several detectives (from the crimes scene investigation team predominantly - Day, Studebaker, Johnson, Montgomery) recalled seeing the bag in several states - folded once, folded twice, unfolded.

The bag was dusted for fingerprints using magnetic powder by Studebaker/Day and no latent finger prints were detected. Mr Day wrote on the bag twice - 39 words in total before handing the bag over to the FBI.  

The bag was not photographed in situ or during a reconstruction of the crime scene. It was unsure who took ownership of the bag once it was dusted for fingerprints.

The bag was taken to the first floor (presumably with the MC rifle as well as Day stated he never left possession of it) and Mr Day and Mr Studebaker took a sample of paper and tape from the first floor (CE 677).

No one is certain what happened after that but Mr Montgomery was photographed holding a long bag coming out of the TSBD at ~ 3 pm.

This is the story describing what I believe occurred to the bag that Montgomery came out with to eventually become ("evolve") into CE 142.

Luke Mooney - one of the first Detectives to literally step into the SN fails to see the bag on the floor




Detective Montgomery comes out with a large bag upside down and with an object inserted into it

The object within the bag can not be full length as the bag collapses down to reveal a flat and smooth top. The bag is heavily crinkled down the open end and there are no definitive crease marks to indicate that the bag was folded into a small package as was described by several of the Detectives.



Detective Johnson and Mr Day bring out more evidence found on the 6th floor



A paper and tape sample were taken by Mr Day and Mr Studebaker from the first floor



The FBI make a replica bag to show witnesses



The paper and tape samples were taken from the first floor of the TSBD

The FBI obtained their paper and tape samples on a Sunday. When Mr Day and Mr Studebaker obtained their samples, it was likely that the employees were told to go home for the afternoon.



A bag was photographed in the FBI Crimes laboratory

Could this be the same bag that Montgomery took out of the TSBD? If it was, then there was an immediate issue - this bag did not possess a flap at one end.

This bag was also photographed being in close proximity to the blanket that was recovered in the Paines garage.



The FBI stained CE 142 with silver nitrate.

A partial palm and finger print was now found on the bag that belonged to Lee Harvey Oswald.

An FBI expert could not associate the bag with having carried CE 139, the MC rifle found on the 6th floor.

An FBI expert detailed how a fold was done to ensure that the bag was strong to hold a heavy object.

The FBI proved that the bag had to have been constructed in situ on the first floor because the tape had specific marking on it meaning it went through a specific tape dispenser that wetted the tape at the same time.

CE 142 matched CE 677.





The FBI sliced the bag so that both sides could be seen at the same time

What is obvious is that the bag had a flap at one end.



My analysis

Was the bag that Montgomery took out CE 142?

Yes it was.  thumbs1xx David Von Pein was correct in his statement  thumbs1xx





What was the issue if it was the same bag?

CE 142 contains a flap that was taped down that it originally did not possess when Montgomery took it out of the TSBD.



An examination of the end flap that was missing in the FBI crimes laboratory bag




It was very likely that the original bag was folded (to add a flap) and cut to make it appear smaller.

When one considers that there was an inconsistent description of the bag when "found", and inconsistent description on who handled it, no photograph of it, six Detectives failing to see the bag and no one knows how it ended up in Montgomery's hands, ended up changing structure to include a flap and definitive crease lines - one is highly suspicious of whether that bag was anywhere near the 6th floor.

Mr Day and Mr Studebaker were on the first floor with the rifle and we know that they took paper and tape. If you had the rifle int your possession wouldn't you wrap in up to conceal/protect it from the crowd outside? It was already dusted for prints by Day. Yet inexplicably Day walks out with the rifle and Montgomery walks out with the bag.

What the flap is going on?  rofl

Mr Fratini..... You opened this thread with this statement......."I have decided to form a separate thread on CE 142 - the so called rifle case shaped bag"


But nowhere in the post do you show a   RIFLE CASED SHAPED BAG     

This is not meant as criticism or to disparage your work......  What I am attempting to point out is the cops originally said that they found a gun case shaped bag in the building and that is how they believed that the dirty little back shootin, coward, commie LEE HARVEY OSSSSWALD got the rifle into the building.

But no gun case SHAPED bag was ever produced.....   

Anybody who is familiar with rifles or shotguns knows that a Gun Case is  TAPERED   small at the muzzle end and bigger at the butt end.     

Detective Day is on record as saying that he found such a "GUN CASE SHAPED BAG"  and picked it up and turned to Roy Truly and asked him if he had ever seen that before.   Truly said he had never seen it.     Day folded that GUN CASE SHAPED bag up and put it in his pocket, never to be seen again.......

WHY?????


-------------------------

   ReplyReply
Super Member
*****

Posts: 10447


As a guest, you are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
As a guest, you are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
As a guest, you are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I have decided to form a separate thread on CE 142 - the so called rifle case shaped bag that was "found" in the south east corner on the 6th floor of the TSBD, referred to as the SN. For the sake of brevity I am not going to reproduce all of the testimonial statement that was present in the original thread as we should all be aware of where to find it. I would like to highlight the main points and will build on it in time.

What did the WC state?

The WC had concluded that LHO brought in his MC rifle into the TSBD in a dismantled state concealed in the bag (CE 142) on the morning of 22/11/1963.

Two people witnessed seeing LHO holding a package that morning - Buell Wesley Frazier and his sister Linnie Mae Randle. Despite being shown the bag and an FBI replica bag, both witnesses estimated the bag that LHO had with him that morning was between 24 - 27.5 inches. The WC rejected their conclusions believing that they were mistaken.

The disassembled MC was 34.8 inches in length, the largest part being the wooden stock.

Jack Dougherty failed to see this package on LHO as he entered into the TSBD at ~ 8 am in the morning. The WC rejected his testimony believing that he was mistaken.

No one saw LHO with a package, or construct one, at any time prior to or on the day of the assassination.

When the SN was found on the 6th floor after the assassination, six detectives failed to see the bag in the SN, yet several detectives (from the crimes scene investigation team predominantly - Day, Studebaker, Johnson, Montgomery) recalled seeing the bag in several states - folded once, folded twice, unfolded.

The bag was dusted for fingerprints using magnetic powder by Studebaker/Day and no latent finger prints were detected. Mr Day wrote on the bag twice - 39 words in total before handing the bag over to the FBI.  

The bag was not photographed in situ or during a reconstruction of the crime scene. It was unsure who took ownership of the bag once it was dusted for fingerprints.

The bag was taken to the first floor (presumably with the MC rifle as well as Day stated he never left possession of it) and Mr Day and Mr Studebaker took a sample of paper and tape from the first floor (CE 677).

No one is certain what happened after that but Mr Montgomery was photographed holding a long bag coming out of the TSBD at ~ 3 pm.

This is the story describing what I believe occurred to the bag that Montgomery came out with to eventually become ("evolve") into CE 142.

Luke Mooney - one of the first Detectives to literally step into the SN fails to see the bag on the floor




Detective Montgomery comes out with a large bag upside down and with an object inserted into it

The object within the bag can not be full length as the bag collapses down to reveal a flat and smooth top. The bag is heavily crinkled down the open end and there are no definitive crease marks to indicate that the bag was folded into a small package as was described by several of the Detectives.



Detective Johnson and Mr Day bring out more evidence found on the 6th floor



A paper and tape sample were taken by Mr Day and Mr Studebaker from the first floor



The FBI make a replica bag to show witnesses



The paper and tape samples were taken from the first floor of the TSBD

The FBI obtained their paper and tape samples on a Sunday. When Mr Day and Mr Studebaker obtained their samples, it was likely that the employees were told to go home for the afternoon.



A bag was photographed in the FBI Crimes laboratory

Could this be the same bag that Montgomery took out of the TSBD? If it was, then there was an immediate issue - this bag did not possess a flap at one end.

This bag was also photographed being in close proximity to the blanket that was recovered in the Paines garage.



The FBI stained CE 142 with silver nitrate.

A partial palm and finger print was now found on the bag that belonged to Lee Harvey Oswald.

An FBI expert could not associate the bag with having carried CE 139, the MC rifle found on the 6th floor.

An FBI expert detailed how a fold was done to ensure that the bag was strong to hold a heavy object.

The FBI proved that the bag had to have been constructed in situ on the first floor because the tape had specific marking on it meaning it went through a specific tape dispenser that wetted the tape at the same time.

CE 142 matched CE 677.





The FBI sliced the bag so that both sides could be seen at the same time

What is obvious is that the bag had a flap at one end.



My analysis

Was the bag that Montgomery took out CE 142?

Yes it was.  thumbs1xx David Von Pein was correct in his statement  thumbs1xx





What was the issue if it was the same bag?

CE 142 contains a flap that was taped down that it originally did not possess when Montgomery took it out of the TSBD.



An examination of the end flap that was missing in the FBI crimes laboratory bag




It was very likely that the original bag was folded (to add a flap) and cut to make it appear smaller.

When one considers that there was an inconsistent description of the bag when "found", and inconsistent description on who handled it, no photograph of it, six Detectives failing to see the bag and no one knows how it ended up in Montgomery's hands, ended up changing structure to include a flap and definitive crease lines - one is highly suspicious of whether that bag was anywhere near the 6th floor.

Mr Day and Mr Studebaker were on the first floor with the rifle and we know that they took paper and tape. If you had the rifle int your possession wouldn't you wrap in up to conceal/protect it from the crowd outside? It was already dusted for prints by Day. Yet inexplicably Day walks out with the rifle and Montgomery walks out with the bag.

What the flap is going on?  rofl

Mr Fratini..... You opened this thread with this statement......."I have decided to form a separate thread on CE 142 - the so called rifle case shaped bag"


But nowhere in the post do you show a   RIFLE CASED SHAPED BAG     

This is not meant as criticism or to disparage your work......  What I am attempting to point out is the cops originally said that they found a gun case shaped bag in the building and that is how they believed that the dirty little back shootin, coward, commie LEE HARVEY OSSSSWALD got the rifle into the building.

But no gun case SHAPED bag was ever produced.....   

Anybody who is familiar with rifles or shotguns knows that a Gun Case is  TAPERED   small at the muzzle end and bigger at the butt end.     

Detective Day is on record as saying that he found such a "GUN CASE SHAPED BAG"  and picked it up and turned to Roy Truly and asked him if he had ever seen that before.   Truly said he had never seen it.     Day folded that GUN CASE SHAPED bag up and put it in his pocket, never to be seen again.......

WHY??
You're shaped as a forum poster, yet you flood this forum with ridiculous, meaningless rants like the one immediately above, and like your rant about Hosty's interrogation notes proving only to you that Oswald told Fritz and Hosty that Roy Truly displayed three rifles at the TSBD.

A week from today, at the latest, you'll have one thousand posts under your name, in record time. Many thousands  more of your posts from now, uncoupled from reasonable analysis as your above post, will this forum be better or worse as a consequence of your worthless campaign of distraction?

How many hyperactive posters posting a flood of unsupported, twisted nonsense can a forum accomodate before it is degraded to irrelevance in comparison to its former status as a place to share research and informed opinion? At the Ed Forum, it took only a sex obsessed political partisan and a CIA apologist who never misses an opportunity to remind a dwindling readership that resigned Gen. Walker blah blah blah, all icing on the cakebread by a forum owner aplogizing to the members for not protecting Peter Janney soon enough.

Enough, but I accept that Mr. Cakebread does not understand or care what enough is, or means.

You're shaped as a forum poster, yet you flood this forum with ridiculous, meaningless rants like the one immediately above, and like your rant about Hosty's interrogation notes proving only to you that Oswald told Fritz and Hosty that Roy Truly displayed three rifles at the TSBD.


Hmmmmm...You must be referring FBI agent James Hosty's  hand written note that he jotted down after Lee told them that he had seen the carcano before in Mr. Truly's office.

Quote........" Day before yesterday Mr Truly had rifle & 2 others 1st floor outside office"...    Unquote.......

I'm sure due to your dyslexia you will interpret that in some weird fashio,n but most folks can understand what Lee Oswald told agent Hosty.......


-------------------------

   ReplyReply
Super Member
*****

Posts: 10447


As a guest, you are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
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................
Mr Fratini..... You opened this thread with this statement......."I have decided to form a separate thread on CE 142 - the so called rifle case shaped bag"


But nowhere in the post do you show a   RIFLE CASED SHAPED BAG    

This is not meant as criticism or to disparage your work......  What I am attempting to point out is the cops originally said that they found a gun case shaped bag in the building and that is how they believed that the dirty little back shootin, coward, commie LEE HARVEY OSSSSWALD got the rifle into the building.

But no gun case SHAPED bag was ever produced.....  

Anybody who is familiar with rifles or shotguns knows that a Gun Case is  TAPERED  small at the muzzle end and bigger at the butt end.    

Detective Day is on record as saying that he found such a "GUN CASE SHAPED BAG"  and picked it up and turned to Roy Truly and asked him if he had ever seen that before.   Truly said he had never seen it.     Day folded that GUN CASE SHAPED bag up and put it in his pocket, never to be seen again.......

WHY??
You're shaped as a forum poster, yet you flood this forum with ridiculous, meaningless rants like the one immediately above, and like your rant about Hosty's interrogation notes proving only to you that Oswald told Fritz and Hosty that Roy Truly displayed three rifles at the TSBD.

A week from today, at the latest, you'll have one thousand posts under your name, in record time. Many thousands  more of your posts from now, uncoupled from reasonable analysis as your above post, will this forum be better or worse as a consequence of your worthless campaign of distraction?

How many hyperactive posters posting a flood of unsupported, twisted nonsense can a forum accomodate before it is degraded to irrelevance in comparison to its former status as a place to share research and informed opinion? At the Ed Forum, it took only a sex obsessed political partisan and a CIA apologist who never misses an opportunity to remind a dwindling readership that resigned Gen. Walker blah blah blah, all icing on the cakebread by a forum owner apologizing to the members for not protecting Peter Janney soon enough.

Enough, but I accept that Mr. Cakebread does not understand or care what enough is, or means.

Dear Mr Sulky, Thank you for allowing me to enlighten you....... Mr. Cakebread does not understand or care what enough is, or means.

Mr Cakebread understands very well what "ENOUGH"[/b is.......    I had enough of the BS being handed out many years ago......I'm deeply offended when someone offers me a dog turd and tells me it's a candy bar, and then starts ridiculing me when I refuse to accept their lie.    You talk about ENOUGH!   I've had more than ENOUGH!!!


-------------------------

   ReplyReply

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*****

Posts: 7198

semper paratus semper terrarium


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................
Mr Fratini..... You opened this thread with this statement......."I have decided to form a separate thread on CE 142 - the so called rifle case shaped bag"


But nowhere in the post do you show a   RIFLE CASED SHAPED BAG    

This is not meant as criticism or to disparage your work......  What I am attempting to point out is the cops originally said that they found a gun case shaped bag in the building and that is how they believed that the dirty little back shootin, coward, commie LEE HARVEY OSSSSWALD got the rifle into the building.

But no gun case SHAPED bag was ever produced.....  

Anybody who is familiar with rifles or shotguns knows that a Gun Case is  TAPERED  small at the muzzle end and bigger at the butt end.    

Detective Day is on record as saying that he found such a "GUN CASE SHAPED BAG"  and picked it up and turned to Roy Truly and asked him if he had ever seen that before.   Truly said he had never seen it.     Day folded that GUN CASE SHAPED bag up and put it in his pocket, never to be seen again.......

WHY??
You're shaped as a forum poster, yet you flood this forum with ridiculous, meaningless rants like the one immediately above, and like your rant about Hosty's interrogation notes proving only to you that Oswald told Fritz and Hosty that Roy Truly displayed three rifles at the TSBD.

A week from today, at the latest, you'll have one thousand posts under your name, in record time. Many thousands  more of your posts from now, uncoupled from reasonable analysis as your above post, will this forum be better or worse as a consequence of your worthless campaign of distraction?

How many hyperactive posters posting a flood of unsupported, twisted nonsense can a forum accomodate before it is degraded to irrelevance in comparison to its former status as a place to share research and informed opinion? At the Ed Forum, it took only a sex obsessed political partisan and a CIA apologist who never misses an opportunity to remind a dwindling readership that resigned Gen. Walker blah blah blah, all icing on the cakebread by a forum owner apologizing to the members for not protecting Peter Janney soon enough.

Enough, but I accept that Mr. Cakebread does not understand or care what enough is, or means.


You're shaped as a forum poster, yet you flood this forum with ridiculous,

What ridiculous, that's are forums for to make post Capito Mr. Scully.

There are other forum member here that try to make other people on the forum ridiculous.

Why do you not attack them.

It is not in your LN-SOP or protocol,.... I'm sure.

Best wishes Mr. Scully.


 72



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I have decided to form a separate thread on CE 142 - the so called rifle case shaped bag that was "found" in the south east corner on the 6th floor of the TSBD, referred to as the SN. For the sake of brevity I am not going to reproduce all of the testimonial statement that was present in the original thread as we should all be aware of where to find it. I would like to highlight the main points and will build on it in time.

What did the WC state?

The WC had concluded that LHO brought in his MC rifle into the TSBD in a dismantled state concealed in the bag (CE 142) on the morning of 22/11/1963.

Two people witnessed seeing LHO holding a package that morning - Buell Wesley Frazier and his sister Linnie Mae Randle. Despite being shown the bag and an FBI replica bag, both witnesses estimated the bag that LHO had with him that morning was between 24 - 27.5 inches. The WC rejected their conclusions believing that they were mistaken.

The disassembled MC was 34.8 inches in length, the largest part being the wooden stock.

Jack Dougherty failed to see this package on LHO as he entered into the TSBD at ~ 8 am in the morning. The WC rejected his testimony believing that he was mistaken.

No one saw LHO with a package, or construct one, at any time prior to or on the day of the assassination.

When the SN was found on the 6th floor after the assassination, six detectives failed to see the bag in the SN, yet several detectives (from the crimes scene investigation team predominantly - Day, Studebaker, Johnson, Montgomery) recalled seeing the bag in several states - folded once, folded twice, unfolded.

The bag was dusted for fingerprints using magnetic powder by Studebaker/Day and no latent finger prints were detected. Mr Day wrote on the bag twice - 39 words in total before handing the bag over to the FBI.  

The bag was not photographed in situ or during a reconstruction of the crime scene. It was unsure who took ownership of the bag once it was dusted for fingerprints.

The bag was taken to the first floor (presumably with the MC rifle as well as Day stated he never left possession of it) and Mr Day and Mr Studebaker took a sample of paper and tape from the first floor (CE 677).

No one is certain what happened after that but Mr Montgomery was photographed holding a long bag coming out of the TSBD at ~ 3 pm.

This is the story describing what I believe occurred to the bag that Montgomery came out with to eventually become ("evolve") into CE 142.

Luke Mooney - one of the first Detectives to literally step into the SN fails to see the bag on the floor




Detective Montgomery comes out with a large bag upside down and with an object inserted into it

The object within the bag can not be full length as the bag collapses down to reveal a flat and smooth top. The bag is heavily crinkled down the open end and there are no definitive crease marks to indicate that the bag was folded into a small package as was described by several of the Detectives.



Detective Johnson and Mr Day bring out more evidence found on the 6th floor



A paper and tape sample were taken by Mr Day and Mr Studebaker from the first floor



The FBI make a replica bag to show witnesses



The paper and tape samples were taken from the first floor of the TSBD

The FBI obtained their paper and tape samples on a Sunday. When Mr Day and Mr Studebaker obtained their samples, it was likely that the employees were told to go home for the afternoon.



A bag was photographed in the FBI Crimes laboratory

Could this be the same bag that Montgomery took out of the TSBD? If it was, then there was an immediate issue - this bag did not possess a flap at one end.

This bag was also photographed being in close proximity to the blanket that was recovered in the Paines garage.



The FBI stained CE 142 with silver nitrate.

A partial palm and finger print was now found on the bag that belonged to Lee Harvey Oswald.

An FBI expert could not associate the bag with having carried CE 139, the MC rifle found on the 6th floor.

An FBI expert detailed how a fold was done to ensure that the bag was strong to hold a heavy object.

The FBI proved that the bag had to have been constructed in situ on the first floor because the tape had specific marking on it meaning it went through a specific tape dispenser that wetted the tape at the same time.

CE 142 matched CE 677.





The FBI sliced the bag so that both sides could be seen at the same time

What is obvious is that the bag had a flap at one end.



My analysis

Was the bag that Montgomery took out CE 142?

Yes it was.  thumbs1xx David Von Pein was correct in his statement  thumbs1xx





What was the issue if it was the same bag?

CE 142 contains a flap that was taped down that it originally did not possess when Montgomery took it out of the TSBD.



An examination of the end flap that was missing in the FBI crimes laboratory bag




It was very likely that the original bag was folded (to add a flap) and cut to make it appear smaller.

When one considers that there was an inconsistent description of the bag when "found", and inconsistent description on who handled it, no photograph of it, six Detectives failing to see the bag and no one knows how it ended up in Montgomery's hands, ended up changing structure to include a flap and definitive crease lines - one is highly suspicious of whether that bag was anywhere near the 6th floor.

Mr Day and Mr Studebaker were on the first floor with the rifle and we know that they took paper and tape. If you had the rifle int your possession wouldn't you wrap in up to conceal/protect it from the crowd outside? It was already dusted for prints by Day. Yet inexplicably Day walks out with the rifle and Montgomery walks out with the bag.

What the flap is going on?  rofl

Tony.....Many years ago I saw a photo of LD Montgomery with that big bag. It was taken in front of the TSBD just like the photos you have posted .....EXCEPT......  The curved handle of an umbrella could be seen in his hand.   That sack was covering an Umbrella.....  

You've done an excellent job of exposing a key lie in the framing of Lee Oswald......

 Did you notice that the small lunch sack that Detective Johnson is carrying is covered with finger print powder....But there's not a trace of finger print powder on the large sack that Montgomery is carrying......    This suggests that the large bag was not really evidence......it was being used to cover the umbrella.


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« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 10:22:04 PM by Walt Cakebread »

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................
You're shaped as a forum poster, yet you flood this forum with ridiculous,

What ridiculous, that's are forums for to make post Capito Mr. Scully.

There are other forum member here that try to make other people on the forum ridiculous.

Why do you not attack them.

It is not in your LN-SOP or protocol,.... I'm sure.

Best wishes Mr. Scully.


 72



Paul, I see you are a sly one.....you've figured it all out. I am humbled by your comments.

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Name:    Walt Cakebread
Posts:    858 (20.927 per day)

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........
You're shaped as a forum poster, yet you flood this forum with ridiculous, meaningless rants like the one immediately above, and like your rant about Hosty's interrogation notes proving only to you that Oswald told Fritz and Hosty that Roy Truly displayed three rifles at the TSBD.
..........

You're shaped as a forum poster, yet you flood this forum with ridiculous, meaningless rants like the one immediately above, and like your rant about Hosty's interrogation notes proving only to you that Oswald told Fritz and Hosty that Roy Truly displayed three rifles at the TSBD.


Hmmmmm...You must be referring FBI agent James Hosty's  hand written note that he jotted down after Lee told them that he had seen the carcano before in Mr. Truly's office.

Quote........" Day before yesterday Mr Truly had rifle & 2 others 1st floor outside office"...    Unquote.......

I'm sure due to your dyslexia you will interpret that in some weird fashio,n but most folks can understand what Lee Oswald told agent Hosty.......

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Name:    Rob Caprio
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.......
The pattern I see by the likes of Scully and others is that I should just accept a headstone over a ton of official documents and say, "Hey, that is wrong." I don't work like that, but Scully obviously does as he accepts headstones for everything. By the way, people can have anything put on headstones, they are literally written in stone but they are not 100% accurate as he claims.

This is all nonsense and meant to distract from the main point of the thread and that is something the WC defenders do constantly since they can't deal with the main point of the thread in the first place. ......

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Name:    Tom Scully
Posts:    1030 (1.813 per day)



Don't be humbled Tom,... it is a observation of me to reality of the forum and his members, without calling names.



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