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Frazier’s claims in more recent years completely contradict what he testified to under oath. I guess the statute of limitations for perjury had already run out by then. Plus Frazier needed a “hook” to sell his book…

Frazier's claim is an odd story but I doubt Frazier is telling it to sell his book.  I can't imagine anyone bought the book for that reason.  Frazier is definitive in his WC testimony that the last time he saw Oswald that day was between 10 and 12.  But maybe he thought the question was directed to Oswald's movements before the assassination.  Otherwise it is difficult to reconcile his two stories.   Maybe someone should ask him.  Frazier does appear to entertain the possibility that Oswald is innocent.  At the 6th floor museum event, he mentioned that Oswald often played on the lawn with the neighborhood kids.  And because of that, Frazier concluded that he didn't think Oswald was capable of the crime because kids have some intuitive sense of people in his opinion.  It was pretty silly but I'm guessing he hopes that Oswald is innocent so as not to bear any sense of historical association between himself and the crime.  Arguably, there might be some cause for him to have been a little suspicious of Oswald taking an unexpected trip to the Paine home and carrying a long narrow package to work on the morning that the president was due to drive by the building.  I also have some difficulty believing that there was no discussion that morning between Frazier and Oswald of the pending presidential visits.  That would have been the biggest news story of the day and the motorcade would be passing their place of work.  I think Frazier may have downplayed any suggestion that he should have been a little more observant that morning once he understood that he had driven the assassin and his weapon to the building.  He put on the Gomer Pyle act and claimed he didn't take much notice of anything and knew "nothing" like Sgt. Schultz. 
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview
« Last post by Jack Nessan on March 27, 2024, 02:28:25 PM »
You're really starting to embarrass yourself now, Jack, and it's all getting a little sad.
Your profound ignorance regarding the most basic aspects of this case and your general confusion, are making reasoned debate virtually impossible.The WC settled nothing. As I've explained elsewhere, the WC were complicit in fabricating a timeline that was specifically used to undermine the testimony of Vicki Adams. This is from Reply#401:

Just to be clear, Jack's Lie isn't that Vicki waited for four or five minutes before racing down to the first floor.
This is a Warren Commission Lie and, like a good little Nutter, Jack just regurgitates what the WC tells him to regurgitate.
On the 20th March 1964, Baker and Truly took part in time trials which established how quickly both men took to get up to the second floor lunchroom after the assassination. The first time was around 90 seconds, the second time 75 seconds.
Five days later both men testify before the WC and talk about the time trials. So the times taken by Truly and Baker to get inside the TSBD building and up to the second floor are firmly established by this point.
On the 7th April the testimonies of Adams, Lovelady and Shelley are taken. Adams goes first, telling the Commission she raced down the stairs to the first floor and was there in 30-60 seconds and saw Lovelady and Shelley there. There is no contradiction between her testimony and the Truly/Baker time trials - the reason she didn't see them and they didn't see her is that she was already out the back door before Truly and Baker got to the elevators.
Then come the testimonies of, first Lovelady, then Shelley, during which both men tell exactly the same lie which completely contradicts the Truly/Baker time trials and the testimony of Adams.
Both men testify to the effect that Truly and Baker were still outside the TSBD building at least three minutes after the assassination. This completely contradicts the time trials. The timings for Baker and Truly entering the TSBD building have already been firmly established. Now both Lovelady and Shelley are more or less testifying that Baker and Truly were lying and that the whole time trial was a sham. And it's not just one of them telling this lie...it is both of them. It is an organised and co-ordinated Lie.
I'm not sure if the Commission was aware of the Darnell footage at the time of the testimonies of Lovelady and Shelley. Film evidence proving the lies of these men.
Unbelievably, the Commission never questions these lies. The lies are allowed to stand, unchallenged.
Even more unbelievably, when it comes to offer it's final version of events on the day of the assassination, the Commission somehow accepts the results of the time trials (contradicting the "3 minute" lie of Shelley and Lovelady), but they also use the testimony of these proven liars to undermine the testimony of Adams!!This is how they come up with their ridiculous claim that it took Adams five minutes to get down to the first floor. A 'conclusion' all Nutters happily swallow down without question.
But this is not Jack's Lie.
Jack's Lie is that the testimonial evidence of Harkness, Sawyer and Barnett refutes the timeline of Adams - that she left the fourth floor within seconds of the last shot.


The WC not only allowed the lies of Shelley and Lovelady to stand unchallenged, they used these lies to undermine Adams' testimony, even though the lies completely contradicted the Baker/Truly timeline ( a timeline that had been firmly established by the time Shelley and Lovelady had their hearings).
There is no point in asking you to explain how the WC could accept these lies which completely contradicted the, already established, timelines provided by the Baker/Truly timelines.
There's probably no point even asking you if you understand what's being said here.
What can be said is that this issue is a real problem for all Nutters who just swallow down the WC's "narrative" whole.
I'm going to try, one last time, to explain your mistake. I'll explain it in a way that a child could understand.
Yes - Harkness reports that he and two others locked down the back of the building around 12:36pm
Yes - Adams reported running into an officer after she had left the building who told her to go back inside.
However, your identification of the officer who encountered Adams and Styles as Harkness is completely made up by you.

You have invented this identification. I don't know if you understand that.
It's not a fact.
It's a figment of your imagination.
You then reverse engineer the situation using this imaginary identification - if the officer is Harkness and he was there around 12:36pm then Adams and Styles encountered him around 12:36pm therefore they must have lied about what time they left the fourth floor. This is all a figment of your imagination.
I can't explain it in a simpler way.
There's no point in getting into the fact that somebody locking down the building would not be stood about 50 ft away from the door and round the corner of the building, in a position where they couldn't even see the door. I think that would be too much information for you to process.

Errr...no, Jack. I'm not the one saying Adams and Styles encountered Harkness around 12:36pm
That's you who is saying that.
Don't you remember?  :-[
Once again, your ignorance regarding the facts of this case is shocking.
Adams states over and over and over again that she ran:

Mr. Belin: You took those stairs. Were you walking or running as you went down the stairs?
Miss ADAMS: I was running. We were running.

Mr. Belin: You had heels. Now, as you were running down the stairs, did you encounter anyone?
Miss ADAMS: Not during the actual running down the stairs; no, sir.

Mr. Belin: Did you immediately turn and run and keep on running down the stairs towards the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. Yes.

Miss ADAMS. Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired, and returned to the building.

Mr. BELIN. How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS. I would say no longer than a minute at the most.

Your idea, that Adams just strolled down the stairs and out of the building, just shows how little you know about this aspect of the case.
In Reply#362 I demonstrate that Adams and Styles could have made to the first floor 35 - 40 seconds after the head shot, perfectly within her own estimation of "a minute at most". Given that she "ran to the railroad tracks", her encounter with the officer could have taken place within 60 seconds of the headshot. Remember, Barnett must have seen the same officer when he got to the back of the TSBD building seconds after the shooting.
Again, this is really basic information you should be aware of. The footprint of the TSBD building is a shade under 100ft by 100ft.

Yet again, you are unaware of the basics.
Adams is specific that it is only one police officer who stops them. There is never any mention of multiple officers.
Just do some basic research. You really are making a fool of yourself.

Just a whole lot of nothing again. All just your opinion and conjecture. Everyone is lying. Not one person telling the truth but you. You and only you know what the truth is.

Maybe a recap is in order. You presented two photos as proof of something only, there was no proof of anything in the photos other than an overactive imagination. Shelley and Lovelady, to fit into this storyline are sprinting all over the place. Not because it makes any sense at all, but because that is the only way they can fit into this strange storyline.

Here are the known facts;

DO:  “Yes - Harkness reports that he and two others locked down the back of the building around 12:36pm”

DO:  “Yes - Adams reported running into an officer after she had left the building who told her to go back inside.”

Styles reported running into an officer after she had left the building who told her to go back inside.

Detective Sawyer states the front door was locked down by 13:37. Styles reenters the building by the front door and Adams tries to reenter a few minutes later and is stopped.


From where the encounter with the officer took place at the back of the building and the subsequent walk back to the front door is approximately 250 feet.

It is just math. No need to be afraid. 

At 4mph = 352 feet per minute

At 3mph = 264 feet per minute

Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired, and returned to the building.

Styles walks into the front door and Adams is locked out.

 

In Reply#362 I demonstrate that Adams and Styles could have made to the first floor 35 - 40 seconds after the head shot, perfectly within her own estimation of "a minute at most".

Not according to Barnett who saw no-one behind the building.


Again, this is really basic information you should be aware of. The footprint of the TSBD building is a shade under 100ft by 100ft.

Basic is right. No, it is really 100x110 feet, N and S is longer.

There is a scale on the drawings

I should have just measured it myself the first time. Given what has gone on in this thread I am guessing the 80 x80 is probably one of your old, uninformed posts.

 

Adams is specific that it is only one police officer who stops them.

So is Styles. You are honestly insinuating that the officers were walking in a group?

 
And now you believe Adams and Styles are lying too?

Adams and Styles did not leave as quickly as they thought. The officer time stamps prove that. Seeing Shelley and Lovelady by the elevator 5 minutes after the last shot prove that.
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JFK Assassination Discussion & Debate / Re: Vicki Adams: The Lost Interview
« Last post by Martin Weidmann on March 27, 2024, 10:10:51 AM »

You're really starting to embarrass yourself now, Jack, and it's all getting a little sad.
Your profound ignorance regarding the most basic aspects of this case and your general confusion, are making reasoned debate virtually impossible.


 Thumb1:

You've reached the same conclusion as I did, some time ago.

I'm just not sure if Nessan is confusing matters on purpose or if he truly doesn't (want to) understand what he is being told, but either way, it's a waste of time to talk to him.

You will never get him to understand or accept that it wasn't and couldn't have been Harkness or one of the men with him who encountered Adams and Styles, because it simply does not fit with the known facts.
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    "Pictures Of The Pain" went into Detail regarding the Murray itinerary on 11/22/63. As with many of the witnesses chronicled in this book, their story jumps around/across many and sometimes hundreds of scattered pages. A dedicated "researcher" needs to follow this disjointed story telling to its' complete conclusion. To set the record straight, Murray was initially inside when the Kill Shot was fired. (5 minute Haygood clock begins running). Murray exited the building and then went to his car and retrieved his camera from the trunk. He then changed the film inside that same camera. After this, he then went Directly to Elm St and took photos. Any of the Murray photos posted on this thread would have been snapped after Officer Haygood's 5 minute window had Expired.


Any of the Murray photos posted on this thread would have been snapped after Officer Haygood's 5 minute window had Expired.

This is apparently your opinion. Trask’s information based on documentation in “Pictures of the Pain” indicate that your opinion is clearly wrong. Here are Trask’s chapter notes (references) at the end of his chapter on Murray and his photos.



I don’t know about anyone else, but I prefer to believe Trask has it right. James Hackerott’s work with the shadow-clock also supports Trask’s information.
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News - Off Topic - Weird & Wacky / Re: RFK Jr to challenge President Biden
« Last post by Richard Smith on March 26, 2024, 11:46:14 PM »
The Dems are frantic to keep RFK Jr off the ballot.  I guess "democracy" only goes one way. 
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Yeah, I think it's her actual hand and not a shadow.

Just guessing (of course) by the appearances, but I think she is pointing toward Brennan and telling the guy in the white hat (who I will assume is a cop who appears to be looking at her) that Brennan saw the shooter.
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there is no evidence that i am aware of that comes near to proving that Oswald walked out the front door 3 minutes after the shooting . in fact the only witness to ever say they saw Oswald leave (wes frazier ) said he saw oswald cross north houston street having left via the loading dock area , or in other words at the rear of the building . frazier said he was wearing a jacket . he told this to gary mack , all be it quite a few years after the fact .

Frazier’s claims in more recent years completely contradict what he testified to under oath. I guess the statute of limitations for perjury had already run out by then. Plus Frazier needed a “hook” to sell his book…
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The evidence suggests that LHO walked out the front door of the TSBD within around 3-minutes of the shots. Free lance photographer Jim Murray ran to his car and got his cameras and was near the front door of the TSBD around 3-minutes after the shots. Murray made several photos there. However several of them were completely over exposed due to an issue with his camera. Thankfully, there is one photo that Murray made at that location at that time that did turn out well. Here is a copy of the photo:



As you can see in the photo, there are a couple of ladies apparently upset; Howard Brennan is looking up at the window where he saw the assassin shoot JFK; and there is a cop (William Barnett) looking in the direction of the camera (which is around the end of the island in front of the TSBD). I have drawn a yellow arrow to a figure that appears to be just to the other side of Brennan. All that can be seen is apparently the back part of the head and a left shoulder. This figure appears to be wearing a white t-shirt. The figure doesn’t seem to be looking at Brennan. Rather he appears to be trying to blend in with the other people and appears to be trying to avoid letting the cop see his face.



Here is an image of LHO from a similar angle:



Could the figure in Murray’s photo be LHO? I think that it is an intriguing possibility. The time and place seems to be correct for this possibility. The behavior of the figure seems to be what I imagine could have happened. What do you think?

there is no evidence that i am aware of that comes near to proving that Oswald walked out the front door 3 minutes after the shooting . in fact the only witness to ever say they saw Oswald leave (wes frazier ) said he saw oswald cross north houston street having left via the loading dock area , or in other words at the rear of the building . frazier said he was wearing a jacket . he told this to gary mack , all be it quite a few years after the fact .
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Your posted Murray Photo was taken well after Haygood had already returned to his motorcycle at the Elm Curb.

What evidence do you have for this claim?

    "Pictures Of The Pain" went into Detail regarding the Murray itinerary on 11/22/63. As with many of the witnesses chronicled in this book, their story jumps around/across many and sometimes hundreds of scattered pages. A dedicated "researcher" needs to follow this disjointed story telling to its' complete conclusion. To set the record straight, Murray was initially inside when the Kill Shot was fired. (5 minute Haygood clock begins running). Murray exited the building and then went to his car and retrieved his camera from the trunk. He then changed the film inside that same camera. After this, he then went Directly to Elm St and took photos. Any of the Murray photos posted on this thread would have been snapped after Officer Haygood's 5 minute window had Expired.
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It's a man in a hard hat - not sure how u can tell it's Brennan
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