 Ian Lloyd |
 July 31, 2009, 09:32:38 AM
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JFK's head movement is usually described in terms of Stone's movie as "back-and-to-the-left". Some say that the Z-film shows an initial forward movement prior to the back-and-to-the-left movement, whereas others say the forward movement is just movement or blurring of the film due to movement of the camera at that moment, giving the impression of a slight forward movement of the head.
Being a complete "non-expert" in film & photography, I'd be interested to read some more "expert" opnions on this...
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August 21, 2010, 06:26:40 AM
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When I watched my copy of "Image of an Assassination" it was clear to me that JFK's head went forward at first and it looked like all the reaction from the bullet was consistent with a shot from the back. From what I understand of where the Grassy Knoll is, any shot from there would be more like a shot right to left than from the front so where would a 'shot from the front' really have taken place? I see no way for a shot from anywhere than from the back to cause blood to arrive on the hood ornament. Earlier in this thread it is suggested that the driver reacted to the sound of the bullet but it would seem to me that a bullet traveling several times the speed of sound would do all of it's damage long before anyone could actually react to it. My last comment is to argue that all the conspiracy theories I'm familiar with require a whole slew of far fetched things to happen, none of which has ever been proven. In my humble opinion, it's far more likely that Oswald acted alone.
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August 21, 2010, 10:12:25 PM
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Is the back and to the left movement simply the recoil reaction, or is it a simultaneous headshot at the exact moment that the recoil started in combination with a headshot from the front?
The recoil reaction is obvious to my eyes -- and so is the reaction of the gelatinous material that first "blobs" forward and then snaps backward as the recoil begins. I see no physical reaction to a shot from the front. Also, please see this video of a bullet entering a block of gelatin. Notice how the extreme force of the bullet creates a tsunami of action MOVING FORWARD. As the bullet exits the gelatin, see the "bubble" that "blobs" forward then snaps back - exactly the way JFK's gelatinous brain material did. <![CDATA[As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
<a href="http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?action=login">Login</a>]]> I am not sure what you think you see happening. You are not making yourself clear. Are you saying that JFK was hit by a hollow point bullet? Are you saying JFK was hit from the front or hit from the rear. What do you mean by exactly the way JFK's brain did? Describe what you think his brain material did. As for the block of gelatin there is no Tsunami movement. There is a massive expansion due to the overpressure. You even see it on the exit side. Where do you see that same thing happen in the Zapruder film? Front or rear? The block itself does not move. In one test shot the block jumps off the table. In another the impact of the bullet propels the block forward a couple of feet. There are many variables at work and you can't generalize.
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August 21, 2010, 10:26:43 PM
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JFK's head movement is usually described in terms of Stone's movie as "back-and-to-the-left". Some say that the Z-film shows an initial forward movement prior to the back-and-to-the-left movement, whereas others say the forward movement is just movement or blurring of the film due to movement of the camera at that moment, giving the impression of a slight forward movement of the head.
Being a complete "non-expert" in film & photography, I'd be interested to read some more "expert" opnions on this...
Part of the problem goes back to Itek which lied and said that JFK's head moved forward 2.3 inches from 312 to 313. WC defenders have been repeating that lie ever since. As I showed several years ago and David Wimp also analyzed what they failed to do what account for the blur of frame 313. So yes JFK's head did move forward about an inch, but not 2.3 inches. Then what everyone else forgot to do was look at frames before or after that and look at everyone else in the car. My analysis many years ago found that everyone was moving forward before 312. So unless they were all shot in the back of the head, the common cause had to be something other than a gunshot. I believe the cause was the limousine slowing down from about 12 MPH to about 8 MPH at about frame 300 as Alvarez found. It is also important to measure carefully to not add in the blur of frame 313. As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
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August 21, 2010, 10:44:05 PM
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For Bill Brown,
From what I've read of the "Thorburn Position", it isn't immediately apparent following a spinal trauma, it may take days or even weeks to become apparent...
Most of the examples are of a person who died with the arms frozen in that position. I believe a similar excitation happened when the bullet hit the tip of T-1 and excited the C-8 nerve which controls the back of the arms.
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August 21, 2010, 11:01:01 PM
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Small GIF i did, using frames from JFK the movie. ( The courtroom scene where they showed the Zapruder film ) As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or LoginIt appears to me that as kennedy is hit in the head. Conally and Kellerman look to be either ducking down, or have been thrown forward. Could greer have put his foot on the brake as a reflex action to the head shot, throwing the occupants forward momentarily. No. Alvarez found that the limo started slowing down at about frame 300 and the brake lights never come on. Everyone in the car started moving forward just after frame 300.
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August 21, 2010, 11:05:11 PM
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Also, please see this video of a bullet entering a block of gelatin. Notice how the extreme force of the bullet creates a tsunami of action MOVING FORWARD. As the bullet exits the gelatin, see the "bubble" that "blobs" forward then snaps back - exactly the way JFK's gelatinous brain material did.
I am not sure what you think you see happening. You are not making yourself clear.
Are you saying that JFK was hit by a hollow point bullet?
Are you saying JFK was hit from the front or hit from the rear.
What do you mean by exactly the way JFK's brain did?
Describe what you think his brain material did.
As for the block of gelatin there is no Tsunami movement. There is a massive expansion due to the overpressure. You even see it on the exit side. Where do you see that same thing happen in the Zapruder film? Front or rear?
The block itself does not move. In one test shot the block jumps off the table. In another the impact of the bullet propels the block forward a couple of feet.
There are many variables at work and you can't generalize.
As the bullet exits the gelatin on the right side...a bubble of gelatin blasts outward then snaps back. That is what JFK's brain appears to do on the Z film. His head moves forward slightly after being hit from behind. A portion of bone blasts out of his right skull. His brain blob (similar to gelatin at this point) explodes outward, blasts outward to to our right. It then snaps back, toward the rear, as JFK's body moves backward.
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August 21, 2010, 11:10:40 PM
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Small GIF i did, using frames from JFK the movie. ( The courtroom scene where they showed the Zapruder film ) As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or LoginIt appears to me that as kennedy is hit in the head. Conally and Kellerman look to be either ducking down, or have been thrown forward. Could greer have put his foot on the brake as a reflex action to the head shot, throwing the occupants forward momentarily. This , plus the car accelerating would account for the back and to the left movement. If Kennedy was shot from behind , then it was from the county courts building . The car did not start accelerating at 313 and everyone else continued moving forward for several frames after 313. Take a look at Kellerman.
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August 21, 2010, 11:17:06 PM
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Small GIF i did, using frames from JFK the movie. ( The courtroom scene where they showed the Zapruder film ) As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or LoginIt appears to me that as kennedy is hit in the head. Conally and Kellerman look to be either ducking down, or have been thrown forward. Could greer have put his foot on the brake as a reflex action to the head shot, throwing the occupants forward momentarily. Robin, I believe that is exactly what Greer did - slam on his brakes because Nelly and John move suddenly forward towards the partition in the Limo. Greer also saw JFK get hit. In addition, JFK's right arm lifts up after being struck and then suddenly goes limp - IMHO - he is killed immediately by the head shot. His head in the right side near his ear does literally explode out. I can see two movements - immediately forward and then violently back and to the left. Can two bullets, one from behind and one from in front to the side cause the same reaction? I see it like this JFK movement to the front JFK movement to the back and to the left Greer slams on brakes - movement of limo occupants suddenly forward, except JFK - he is sliding down Greer commences to accelerate hence the movement of JFK is NOT due to Greer braking nor accelerating. The movements of JFK are entirely due to being hit but the bullet(s) in the head. cheers, Tony Greer did not clam on the brakes. The brake lights never come on. Greer did not accelerate immediately after the head shot. I assume you mean that Greer CONTINUES to accelerate, not commences.
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August 21, 2010, 11:39:45 PM
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 Forget about the white thing in the grass for the moment, please, it's impossible that it was from JFK's head anyway, cause it follows the grass location completely. Concentrate on JFK. It's amazing how much of the flapout is flapped out immediately and completely just in the first 1/18th of a second after the first headshot from behind. The flapout flapped out almost 180 degrees downward onto his cheek and some hair is still on it on the front part which you see in front of JFK's face in perspective. Then amidst all that brain and bone matter splash peak, the bullet entry of the shot from the right front must have been occured, cause that is the point, where the back-and-to-the-left-movement starts. Also the roll-back-to-top of the flapout starts then. It's amazing that past Z314 the hair of the rear part of the skull is still there, but at about above the right ear to the top the hair is somehow thrown towards the direction of the grassy knoll shooter first, while later it is flapping back and finally like disappearing at the top while the hair at the rear part is standing like verticular away from the skull. That tells me, that about the right side above the ear to the top there was blown away the skull bone, but partly it still kept holding to the rest bones on the top and flappable, whereas in the rear there was blown out a smaller skull piece completely letting the surrounding hair standing verticular to the skull. What amazes me: where did the bullet from behind go? If it exited at about the right temple then it is impossible that it came from the 6th floor east window, it must have come from a building more to the left. Also: any bullet which stroke the windshield frame must have flown above the intermediate window frame, if that intermediate window did not get any damage. And that was way above Kennedy's head. did they aim so badly? Think of that Devil's flap like a door opening. Almost a rectangular piece of skull still attached by skin (dura?). If you look at the autopsy photos you can see that same flap, sometimes closed and sometimes open. Like a door it is hinged on one side. But not hinged at the bottom as you suggest. Hinged on the left side, the edge towards the back of the head. At a slightly tipped forward angle. If you are considering a shot from behind that bullet can not stay intact and make only one exit such as the right temple. It had to break into several pieces to cause all the damage to the limousine. No WC defender or HSCA defender has been brave enough to diagram where an intact bullet exiting the front of the head on a downward angle would go. BTW there were early rumors from the rebuild of the limo that they found a bullet hole in the floor. What you call that intermediate window frame is what we call the parade bar. You are correct that it blocks some paths. Ken Rahn and Larry Sturdivan thought they'd be clever and claim that a fragment from the head shot hit the curb near Tague. Sturdivan fudged the numbers to get a fragment going at just the right speed. But when plotting the path out of the head and over the windshield it would hit the parade bar as you note. I think it more likely that the bullet which broke up and hit the chrome topping struck something lower than JFK's head, namely Connally's wrist.
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August 21, 2010, 11:54:33 PM
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When I watched my copy of "Image of an Assassination" it was clear to me that JFK's head went forward at first and it looked like all the reaction from the bullet was consistent with a shot from the back. From what I understand of where the Grassy Knoll is, any shot from there would be more like a shot right to left than from the front so where would a 'shot from the front' really have taken place? I see no way for a shot from anywhere than from the back to cause blood to arrive on the hood ornament. Earlier in this thread it is suggested that the driver reacted to the sound of the bullet but it would seem to me that a bullet traveling several times the speed of sound would do all of it's damage long before anyone could actually react to it. My last comment is to argue that all the conspiracy theories I'm familiar with require a whole slew of far fetched things to happen, none of which has ever been proven. In my humble opinion, it's far more likely that Oswald acted alone.
You know nothing about blood spatter analysis. You've never heard of backsplatter. And you don't realize that blood went everywhere, even onto the trunk. The whole car. So by your logic it would require two bullets, one from the rear and one from the front to cause spatter both in front and behind JFK. But in fact neither assumption is correct. The top of the head exploded and blood went up. Slightly forward, but there were only a couple of drops on the windshield. And yet the cyclist BEHIND JFK was hit by blood and brains. It went everywhere. And yes the math shows that Greer could not have reacted to the sound of the shot that early. But in fact he may have reacted BEFORE the head shot when he turned to look and saw Clint Hill running up to climb onto the back of the limo. If he had sped up then Hill would have been run over and killed by the SS car.
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