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May 24, 2012, 09:05:30 AM
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Everything You Need to Know bout the WC Hoax  (Read 1695 times)

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"He was always cold but the land of gold, seemed to hold him like a spell
Though he'd often say, in his homely way, that he'd "sooner live in Hell" "
~~Robert W. Service~~

"Never have discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room."
~~Sir Winston Churchill~~

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Really Bob, you need to slow down and read what I put forth. If you do, you'll realize that for once, I agree with you. Yes, there was a 2 1/2 to 3 ibch wound there. Just exactly as they said.



Oh, I don't know what to say. I don't think you've ever agreed with me before LOL.

How did the hole get there?


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2 very relevant excerpts of the ARRB statements (I've added bold face to emphasize my points):




"MR. GUNN: I'd like to hand out a document to each of you that first appeared in a book by Josiah Thompson, which I assume that y'all are familiar with. We can mark this as Exhibit Number 264.
DR.PETERS: I think when Mr. Posner is looking at it was the 707, so I'm not sure I've seen Mr.'Thompson's.
DR.McCLELLAND: And you got to copy of it?
DR.PETERS: No. You can be the spokesman.
DR. PERRY: Who is Josiah Thompson?
DR. MCCLELLAND: He's a private investigator now, but he was a professor of history at this time -
MR. GUNN: Professor of philosophy at -
DR.MCCLELLAND: --somewhere in Pennsylvania.
MR.GUNN: --Temple or Villanova. I'm forgetting which. There's a picture on Page I07 of Exhibit 264. I'd like to ask those of you who saw the head wound if this corresponds to what you observed or if any of you has -- based upon your own observations, it seems inaccurate in any way. Obviously, it's a drawing and so there will be a problem with it, but just your observations on it for those of you who observed the head wound. Does this look like what you saw in Parkland Memorial Hospital?
DR.MCCLELLAND: I told him when he was asking me to describe that picture from which you reviewed this that the first thing I saw when I came in the room in addition to that attempted agonal respiration was the edge of the parietal bone was sticking up through the scalp. And that's not on this picture, but what we were trying to depict here was what the posterior part of the wound looked like. In other words, is not the entire wound. It's simply the posterior part of it and what I thought of as the critical part of it at that time and still do.
MR. GUNN: Does any of you have any--
DR.PETERS: I think that pretty much corresponds to what I said, occipitoparietal. It looks a little further down in the occiput in this picture, I think, but it was pretty far posteriorly because you had to be able to see the cerebellum --
DR.McCLELLAND: Yeah.

DR.PETERS: --and -
DR.MCCLELLAND: Yeah, I agree, Paul. I think that this is a little bit lower or it doesn't indicate that there was still a - you know, maybe a shelf of bone left below that --
DR.PETERS: Yeah.
DR.MCCLELLAND: --but not much of one, and that did allow me to look down into the -- see the inside of the skull-- .
DR.PETERS: Right. I agree
DR. MCCLELLAND: --just like -- you know just like it would be if you took a
skull like you may have as you see here and there was nothing in it. I mean, not down in that part. There was nothing in it. There was no tentorium.
DR. PETERS: The X rays of President Kennedy's skull, which we privileged to see later, showed dramatically how large the fragmentation of the skull was and was easily compatible with what Bob saw originally. There was a big hunk of bone sticking up there in the parietal.
And along with what Dr. Baxter said describing the effects of fracture of the
cribiform plate of the skull,. Abraham Lincoln who was shot on one side with a fairly large caliber bullet had black eyes on both sides and
fractures of the cribiform plate on both sides. Both sides had hemorrhage around the orbits with a much less velocity wound than President Kennedy.
DR. JONES: I might comment on the -- on the eyes. The eyes were open but I
didn't remember hemorrhage around the eyes. I remember the eyes were open. It was just a straight stare. I didn't remember all the black
discoloration -
DR.PETERS: No.
DR. JONES: -- around the eyes.
DR.PETERS: I didn't either.
DR. JONES: This drawing, I could not look over and around so I couldn't speak exactly to this, but it seems to me from Bob's drawing that, Bob you must have been looking down tangentially at it because with this
below the ear and if you're flat, that's going to be on the table.
DR. McCLELLAND: Well,. that's what I'm saying. This is a little bit farther back, but I was looking straight into it, not tangentially but right into it."

So, the drawing published in 6 Seconds in Dallas is accurate dimensionally, but is placed a bit too far back on the head.




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DR. McCLELLAND: Well,. that's what I'm saying. This is a little bit farther back, but I was looking straight into it, not tangentially but right into it.
I would also comment about one other thing. When we went to the National
Archives ten years ago to look at these pictures, they were videotaping that for the Nova program, and we each one went in and looked separately at the photographs. And I can't remember the exact sequence, but when we came back out of the room where we'd been, each one of us made a comment about what we had seen and said, yes that seemed to agree with things and I said -- I volunteered that, well, one of the wounds had caused some comment in different things I had read and heard on, you know, television a time or two; and that they had noted in one of the pictures that there was hair covering all of this area where you see this large hole.
MR. GUNN : When you say -- I'm sorry. If I can interrupt for a second, when you say the large hole, you're referring to --
DR. MCCLELLAND: This -
MR. GUNN: -- something like the picture --   
DR. MCCLELLAND: This one here -
MR. GUNN: -- on Exhibit 264.
DR. MCCLELLAND: There was no hole on that picture that looked like that. And I said,. Well, I think I know what that is. I think it may be because if you notice there are some fingers at the top of the photograph apparently pulling a flap of scalp forward, and I think the flap was being pulled over that opening when they took the pictures. Several years later I was told by one of the people who took some of the photographs that that was not the case; that that hand in the picture was not pulling any flap of scalp up over the skull.
MR. GUNN Do you remember who it was who told you that?
MCCLELLAND: It was one of the men who was taking the photographs. I met him here in Dallas when this fellow who's written these kind of, I think crazy books, David Livingston The High Treason and The High Treason II he had a--
MR. GUNN It's Harry Livingston.
DR. MCCLELLAND: Harry Livingston yeah. He had a -- David Livingston was the guy in Africa, yeah.
DR. PETERS: I presume.
MR. GUNN: Would that be Stringer or Riebe?
DR. MCCLELLAND: It's one or the other, uh-huh, and he said that that was not what was being done. I had always assumed it was
because knew what the -- that the hole was there.
DR. PETERS: Right.
DR. MCCLELLAND: So it wasn't a -- well, maybe I'm wrong. I mean, not unless I've taken leave of my senses entirely. There was a hole there and so my explanation of what was happening is here's this hand up in the wound and they sort of pulled it up for some reason. I don't know why, but that was sort of an interesting sequence of events separated by several years.
MR. GUNN: Dr. Peters, you've been nodding your head.
DR. PETERS: Well, I would certainly agree with what .Bob said. It was my
thought exactly that they just kind of pulled that flap back into place
and took a picture so they could show how it looked with things restored as much as possible and it just -- a flap just kind of -- had been torn back and now they were just kind of putting it back and snapping a picture. For what reason, I don't know."

Here we have 2 doctors who saw the wound referring to a large flap of scalp. "they just pulled that flap back in to place", which indicates there was a large flap of scalp. The fractures/holes through the skull of JFK did not have dimensionally identical, corresponding holes through the scalp, with identical sized pieces of scalp missing. Instead there was severely torn scalp left, no longer attached to the skull underneath. Such areas of loose scalp will tend to fall and pull away from their proper position, but would easily be pulled up again.
Yes I see that a photographer supposedly said they weren't doing that, but if not then why is the gloved hand in that peculiar position? It is gripping something, thats not the position the hand would be in if they were merely holding up the head.


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« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 12:35:47 PM by Geoff Nis »

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"you're the cop, you figure it out"
-Lee H. Oswald to Dallas Police detectives, weekend
of 11-22-63.

"Part of the reason why we avoided talking about this thing, because every time you say something, somebody misinterprets what you say."
-James. J. Humes, excerpt of ARRB statement, 2-13-96

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Statement by Jeremy Gunn at Stanford University in 1998:


"The last thing I wanted to mention, just in terms of how we understand the evidence and how we deal with what we have is what I will call is the profound underscore profound unreliabillity of eyewitness testimony. You just cannot believe it. And I can tell you something else that is even worse than eyewitness testimony and that is 35 year old eyewitness testimony.

"I have taken the depositions of several people who were involved in phases of the Kennedy assassination, all the doctors who performed the autopsy of President Kennedy and people who witnessed various things and they are profoundly unreliable.

"There were two, the two, there were two FBI agents who were present at the autopsy. They basically, I will exaggerate this, they were with each other all night long and they came out and they wrote a report about what they had seen. I took the depositions of these two people, 35 years later. Their stories just were not the same story. Neither one of their stories moved in any direction to prove that anyone had done anything bad or good.




"There is one doctor, this will be the conclusion of the eyewitness testimony, there is one doctor who was one of the treating physicians of President Kennedy at Parkland hospital whom I interviewed. And I asked him some questions and he said he remembered that day very, very vividly. He remembered being in the treating room with President Kennedy in Parkland Memorial Hospital. He remembered seeing Jackie Kennedy walk in. He had never seen her before and what a stunning moment that was for him and how traumatic it was. There was the President who had just died. There's his widow who was there with him. `That just burned in my memory', he said. `I remember Jackie being there in a white suit.'

"And I thought absolutely everyone in the United States knows that Jackie Kennedy was wearing a pink suit. This is the only guy in the UnitedStates who thinks that she was wearing a white suit. There are people who were never present at the autopsy, were never present in Bethesda, never saw Dallas ...everyone knows Jackie was wearing a pink suit. Here you have one of the treating physicians who remembers Jackie wearing a white suit. I assume he wasn't lying to me. I assume he wasn't trying to trick me and I assume he didn't have a second suit theory.

(laughter)

"None of that was true. But here he has this memory. And he described some other things about the autopsy, er, about the treatment of President Kennedy. Let's suppose that I think he's wrong on what he says about something that happened in the treatment room. What can I say? `This guy is so wrong he doesn't even remember what kind of suit Jackie Kennedy was wearing!' You can dismiss his testimony, just dismiss it.

"Or suppose that I think what he says happened at the treating room is was what I think happened too. His memory of the suit, that's not relevant. What is relevant is his professional skill as a doctor. He's not into fashion, he's into being in medicine, so I can trust what he is saying there.

"And that's one of the problems that you have with the Kennedy assassination. You have all this wealth of information and people pick and choose, and then they refute, they argue against one person, they can use an inconsistency that they have made, and you end up having all this confusion.



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"Life is not a problem to be solved.  It is a mystery to be lived".

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2 very relevant excerpts of the ARRB statements (I've added bold face to emphasize my points):




"MR. GUNN: I'd like to hand out a document to each of you that first appeared in a book by Josiah Thompson, which I assume that y'all are familiar with. We can mark this as Exhibit Number 264.
DR.PETERS: I think when Mr. Posner is looking at it was the 707, so I'm not sure I've seen Mr.'Thompson's.
DR.McCLELLAND: And you got to copy of it?
DR.PETERS: No. You can be the spokesman.
DR. PERRY: Who is Josiah Thompson?
DR. MCCLELLAND: He's a private investigator now, but he was a professor of history at this time -
MR. GUNN: Professor of philosophy at -
DR.MCCLELLAND: --somewhere in Pennsylvania.
MR.GUNN: --Temple or Villanova. I'm forgetting which. There's a picture on Page I07 of Exhibit 264. I'd like to ask those of you who saw the head wound if this corresponds to what you observed or if any of you has -- based upon your own observations, it seems inaccurate in any way. Obviously, it's a drawing and so there will be a problem with it, but just your observations on it for those of you who observed the head wound. Does this look like what you saw in Parkland Memorial Hospital?
DR.MCCLELLAND: I told him when he was asking me to describe that picture from which you reviewed this that the first thing I saw when I came in the room in addition to that attempted agonal respiration was the edge of the parietal bone was sticking up through the scalp. And that's not on this picture, but what we were trying to depict here was what the posterior part of the wound looked like. In other words, is not the entire wound. It's simply the posterior part of it and what I thought of as the critical part of it at that time and still do.
MR. GUNN: Does any of you have any--
DR.PETERS: I think that pretty much corresponds to what I said, occipitoparietal. It looks a little further down in the occiput in this picture, I think, but it was pretty far posteriorly because you had to be able to see the cerebellum --
DR.McCLELLAND: Yeah.

DR.PETERS: --and -
DR.MCCLELLAND: Yeah, I agree, Paul. I think that this is a little bit lower or it doesn't indicate that there was still a - you know, maybe a shelf of bone left below that --
DR.PETERS: Yeah.
DR.MCCLELLAND: --but not much of one, and that did allow me to look down into the -- see the inside of the skull-- .
DR.PETERS: Right. I agree
DR. MCCLELLAND: --just like -- you know just like it would be if you took a
skull like you may have as you see here and there was nothing in it. I mean, not down in that part. There was nothing in it. There was no tentorium.
DR. PETERS: The X rays of President Kennedy's skull, which we privileged to see later, showed dramatically how large the fragmentation of the skull was and was easily compatible with what Bob saw originally. There was a big hunk of bone sticking up there in the parietal.
And along with what Dr. Baxter said describing the effects of fracture of the
cribiform plate of the skull,. Abraham Lincoln who was shot on one side with a fairly large caliber bullet had black eyes on both sides and
fractures of the cribiform plate on both sides. Both sides had hemorrhage around the orbits with a much less velocity wound than President Kennedy.
DR. JONES: I might comment on the -- on the eyes. The eyes were open but I
didn't remember hemorrhage around the eyes. I remember the eyes were open. It was just a straight stare. I didn't remember all the black
discoloration -
DR.PETERS: No.
DR. JONES: -- around the eyes.
DR.PETERS: I didn't either.
DR. JONES: This drawing, I could not look over and around so I couldn't speak exactly to this, but it seems to me from Bob's drawing that, Bob you must have been looking down tangentially at it because with this
below the ear and if you're flat, that's going to be on the table.
DR. McCLELLAND: Well,. that's what I'm saying. This is a little bit farther back, but I was looking straight into it, not tangentially but right into it."

So, the drawing published in 6 Seconds in Dallas is accurate dimensionally, but is placed a bit too far back on the head.




%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

 
DR. McCLELLAND: Well,. that's what I'm saying. This is a little bit farther back, but I was looking straight into it, not tangentially but right into it.
I would also comment about one other thing. When we went to the National
Archives ten years ago to look at these pictures, they were videotaping that for the Nova program, and we each one went in and looked separately at the photographs. And I can't remember the exact sequence, but when we came back out of the room where we'd been, each one of us made a comment about what we had seen and said, yes that seemed to agree with things and I said -- I volunteered that, well, one of the wounds had caused some comment in different things I had read and heard on, you know, television a time or two; and that they had noted in one of the pictures that there was hair covering all of this area where you see this large hole.
MR. GUNN : When you say -- I'm sorry. If I can interrupt for a second, when you say the large hole, you're referring to --
DR. MCCLELLAND: This -
MR. GUNN: -- something like the picture --   
DR. MCCLELLAND: This one here -
MR. GUNN: -- on Exhibit 264.
DR. MCCLELLAND: There was no hole on that picture that looked like that. And I said,. Well, I think I know what that is. I think it may be because if you notice there are some fingers at the top of the photograph apparently pulling a flap of scalp forward, and I think the flap was being pulled over that opening when they took the pictures. Several years later I was told by one of the people who took some of the photographs that that was not the case; that that hand in the picture was not pulling any flap of scalp up over the skull.
MR. GUNN Do you remember who it was who told you that?
MCCLELLAND: It was one of the men who was taking the photographs. I met him here in Dallas when this fellow who's written these kind of, I think crazy books, David Livingston The High Treason and The High Treason II he had a--
MR. GUNN It's Harry Livingston.
DR. MCCLELLAND: Harry Livingston yeah. He had a -- David Livingston was the guy in Africa, yeah.
DR. PETERS: I presume.
MR. GUNN: Would that be Stringer or Riebe?
DR. MCCLELLAND: It's one or the other, uh-huh, and he said that that was not what was being done. I had always assumed it was
because knew what the -- that the hole was there.
DR. PETERS: Right.
DR. MCCLELLAND: So it wasn't a -- well, maybe I'm wrong. I mean, not unless I've taken leave of my senses entirely. There was a hole there and so my explanation of what was happening is here's this hand up in the wound and they sort of pulled it up for some reason. I don't know why, but that was sort of an interesting sequence of events separated by several years.
MR. GUNN: Dr. Peters, you've been nodding your head.
DR. PETERS: Well, I would certainly agree with what .Bob said. It was my
thought exactly that they just kind of pulled that flap back into place
and took a picture so they could show how it looked with things restored as much as possible and it just -- a flap just kind of -- had been torn back and now they were just kind of putting it back and snapping a picture. For what reason, I don't know."

Here we have 2 doctors who saw the wound referring to a large flap of scalp. "they just pulled that flap back in to place", which indicates there was a large flap of scalp. The fractures/holes through the skull of JFK did not have dimensionally identical, corresponding holes through the scalp, with identical sized pieces of scalp missing. Instead there was severely torn scalp left, no longer attached to the skull underneath. Such areas of loose scalp will tend to fall and pull away from their proper position, but would easily be pulled up again.
Yes I see that a photographer supposedly said they weren't doing that, but if not then why is the gloved hand in that peculiar position? It is gripping something, thats not the position the hand would be in if they were merely holding up the head.


Geoff
I must say, I am stunned at reading your post. Aren't the other LN'ers going to be cross with you for posting this material?


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Bump?? Dont mind if I do:


Credit to Gerda of course.


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Bump?? Dont mind if I do:
Yes all credit to Gerda, always doing a wonderful job on image material.

But that won't hide the fact that we are looking at a home movie of obscure origin, hardly anything to be considered as genuine....

On the other hand we have plenty of statements of highly qualified medical personnel who had a 1st hand look at the wounds and what they really looked like,

Charles Carrico, Resident Surgeon:
"[There was]...a fairly large wound on the right side of the head in the parietal/occipital area. One could see blood and brains, both cerebellum and cerebrum fragments in that wound."

Marion Jenkins (Professor And Chairman Of Anaesthesiology):
"There was a great laceration on the right side of the head (temporal and occipital)...even to the extent that the cerebellum had protruded from the wound."

Charles Baxter (Professor Of Surgery; Director Of Emergency Room):
"The right temporal and occipital bones were missing and the brain was lying on the table."

Malcolm Perry (Assistant Professor Of Surgery):
"...the parietal occipital head wound was largely evulsive and there was visible brain tissue...and some cerebellum."


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Charles Carrico, Resident Surgeon:
"[There was]...a fairly large wound on the right side of the head in the parietal/occipital area. One could see blood and brains, both cerebellum and cerebrum fragments in that wound."



This is all we need to know about this RESEARHER. He actually lists Carrico as a back of the head witnsses. rofl

Carrico says right side of the head and somehow its used by a CK.  thumbs1xx


CARRICO:

. . . was a much larger wound than the neck wound.  It was five by
seven centimeters, something like that, 2 1/2 by 3 inches, ragged, had
blood and hair all around it, located in the part of the parietal
occipital region.

QUESTION: 

Could you just state in layman's terms the approximate place that
would be?

CARRICO:

That would be above and posterior to the ear, almost from the crown of
the head, and there was brain tissue showing through.




On March 5, 1981, C. James Carrico sent a letter to Ben Bradlee (Jr.)
of THE BOSTON GLOBE responding to a query from Bradlee.  Bradlee had
apparently asked him about the standard conspiracist claim that the
doctors saw the "back of the head" blown out, and that this
contradicted the autopsy photos.

Carrico told Bradlee that:

". . . there is nothing in the pictures and drawings that is
incompatible with the injury as I remember it."




In another letter from Carrico to Bradley, dated April 8, 1981,
Carrico continues:

". . . the drawing which you have asked my opinion about [apparently
the McClelland drawing] is, in part, commensurate with what I saw.
Specifically, it was a very large wound as indicated in the drawing.
However, I do not believe that the large wound was this far posterior
since, one thing I can be certain of, is that we were able to see the
majority, if not all of this wound, with the patient laying on his
back on a hospital gurney.  The location of the wound represented in
the drawing suggests that it would barely have been visible, if
visible at all, with the patient laying in such a position."



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What is silly is thinking that two turns that reduced the speed of the car to 8-11 m.p.h. is no big deal when motorcades are suppose to keep a 44 m.p.h. speed..R Caprio


LHO had poor hand-eye coordination and proof of this is seen in the fact he couldn't drive an automobile--  R Caprio

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This is all we need to know about this RESEARHER. He actually lists Carrico as a back of the head witnsses. rofl

Carrico says right side of the head and somehow its used by a CK.  thumbs1xx


CARRICO:

. . . was a much larger wound than the neck wound.  It was five by
seven centimeters, something like that, 2 1/2 by 3 inches, ragged, had
blood and hair all around it, located in the part of the parietal
occipital region.

QUESTION: 

Could you just state in layman's terms the approximate place that
would be?

CARRICO:

That would be above and posterior to the ear, almost from the crown of
the head, and there was brain tissue showing through.




On March 5, 1981, C. James Carrico sent a letter to Ben Bradlee (Jr.)
of THE BOSTON GLOBE responding to a query from Bradlee.  Bradlee had
apparently asked him about the standard conspiracist claim that the
doctors saw the "back of the head" blown out, and that this
contradicted the autopsy photos.

Carrico told Bradlee that:

". . . there is nothing in the pictures and drawings that is
incompatible with the injury as I remember it."




In another letter from Carrico to Bradley, dated April 8, 1981,
Carrico continues:

". . . the drawing which you have asked my opinion about [apparently
the McClelland drawing] is, in part, commensurate with what I saw.
Specifically, it was a very large wound as indicated in the drawing.
However, I do not believe that the large wound was this far posterior
since, one thing I can be certain of, is that we were able to see the
majority, if not all of this wound, with the patient laying on his
back on a hospital gurney.  The location of the wound represented in
the drawing suggests that it would barely have been visible, if
visible at all, with the patient laying in such a position."



Must be tough spending your life in denial, Brian. How do you get up in the morning and face yourself in the mirror?


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Must be tough spending your life in denial, Brian. How do you get up in the morning and face yourself in the mirror?

Is this the best that you can do when responding to Brian Walker's post about Carrico? 


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"The human mind craves a mystery more than it loves the truth." - Dan Rather

"Reason does not always appeal to unreasonable men." - John F. Kennedy

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Carrico says right side of the head and somehow its used by a CK.


And again some weird numskull calling me a kook .... do you know where the parietal/occipital area is Bri ?


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