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May 24, 2012, 08:52:06 AM
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Problem Solved. No boxes were moved in the Snipers Nest window!  (Read 1675 times)

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Problem Solved.
Recently I was confronted with the snipers nest window and the moving boxes.
If Baker and Truly saw Oswald on the 2nd floor how does he move boxes in the snipers nest too?
The answer is so obvious, I kick myself for not working it out sooner.


It's a simple matter of perspective and the distance the boxes are from the window.




Here you can clearly see that the boxes in the snipers nest window were 3-4 feet behind the window
The sunlight falls similarly on the adjoining windows and creates shadows from the frames on the boxes.





The top picture contains an element created by Thierry Speth






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« Last Edit: January 27, 2012, 07:32:35 AM by John Mytton »

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Craig, you are so hateful that you don't realise you say the same thing. Dillard is on negative film. And Powell on a slide positive, so he is overexposed. Details on the carton boxes are barely visible, they get the same amount of light.   But measure by yourself using  a paint program. Put the cursor on the Powell boxes and see the results. The sun was not facing exactly the TSBD face, so , the shadow of the wood of the midle part of the window was projected somewhere.

Powell was far behind Dillard, so all the Dillard Boxes should be visible on the Powell picture. It is not the case.

BTW, i am not like Hubert Blenner and will not stand any personnal attack, so, i put you on the complaint thread.
i agree thierry, old man lamsons personal attack on you is uncalled for, afterall this is a debate site and u simply put forth ur argument, lamson like many then decide to insult or ridicule, pretty pathetic stuff, really hope duncan takes a look at this!!!


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i agree thierry, old man lamsons personal attack on you is uncalled for, afterall this is a debate site and u simply put forth ur argument, lamson like many then decide to insult or ridicule, pretty pathetic stuff, really hope duncan takes a look at this!!!

And I DESTROYED his argument But facts don't seem to matter to simple minded cts...



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Bob
You're right, i didn't read a word of what he wrote because i knew it was uninformed gibberish!
Analyse the photo's i put up and make a contribution to this thread, and tell me where I'm wrong.
But I guarantee you that NO boxes were moved between Dillard and Powell and it's simply stupid to think that Oswald or anybody else would move any frickin boxes!


JohnM

John, if you plot the lateral distances from the center of the sixth floor window to both Dillard and Powell, the perspective movement of the boxes compared to the windows is a superb fit.  I went down this road some time back at the ed forum.  Most people have a really hard time understanding how perspective works.  Speth is a perfect example.


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« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 04:38:38 PM by Craig Lamson »

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Nice job, John!



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John, if you plot the lateral distances from the center of the sixth floor window to both Dillard and Powell, the perspective movement of the boxes compared to the windows is a superb fit.  I went down this road some time back at the ed forum.  Most people have a really hard time understanding how perspective works.  Speth is a perfect example.



Craig
Thanks, I looked up the thread over at the Ed Forum, I'm glad that there's a few other people who understand this.

A quick look through the Warren Commision Exhibits reveals this arrangement of boxes, throughout the 6th floor.
The walkway is along the walls which allows for easy access and sunlight saves on lighting costs. thumbs1xx


In this photo you can see the window dividers casting a shadow over the boxes in other windows on the 6th floor, totally consistent with the box arrangement in the above picture.
This appears to be the box configuration that Oswald had to work with, and besides the rifle rest and seat, there was probably not much else to do!





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Nice job, John!

gimme5xx
No worries, I'm glad you get it!


JohnM





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Disclaimer: I'm a graphic designer / artist / photographer / web designer / video editor / animator.

I basically do a lot of creative stuff that involves photo editing, illustration, art, and the like. I think you're onto something with the perspective.

It's a shame that photo tech isn't what it is now in 1963 or else we'd have much better (and more) films to go over (not to mention with sound). I never really thought about the perspective of the boxes being the problem. Good stuff, it's definitely plausible that there wasn't any boxes moved.

Your presentation has me fairly convinced of your case, Bravo. I meant to make this post yesterday, but didn't want to type up something this long on my phone.

A+ job. If I had the time, I'd model the sniper's nest in 3D and see if we couldn't replicate the photos.


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Craig
Thanks, I looked up the thread over at the Ed Forum, I'm glad that there's a few other people who understand this.

A quick look through the Warren Commision Exhibits reveals this arrangement of boxes, throughout the 6th floor.
The walkway is along the walls which allows for easy access and sunlight saves on lighting costs. thumbs1xx


In this photo you can see the window dividers casting a shadow over the boxes in other windows on the 6th floor, totally consistent with the box arrangement in the above picture.
This appears to be the box configuration that Oswald had to work with, and besides the rifle rest and seat, there was probably not much else to do!




 gimme5xx
No worries, I'm glad you get it!


JohnM





You are talking about how the boxes were stacked up THAT WEEK by the floor laying crew.


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You are talking about how the boxes were stacked up THAT WEEK by the floor laying crew.




Anthony
If you read Bonnie Ray's testimony, you will realize they had only spent 2 days laying floor on the opposite side of the building and had only moved a small percentage of boxes at that point in time so the layout and pathways were virtually the same, as they completed small sections they would shuffle a small section of boxes back and forth. So why bother mentioning it?
Mr. BALL. Before November 22d, how long had you been laying floor in the building at Houston and Elm?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Before November 22d, I think we had been working on the fifth floor, I think, about 3 weeks. I think altogether I had been up there just about 4 weeks, I think.
Mr. BALL. And how long had you been on the sixth floor before how long have you been working on the sixth floor before November 22?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Let's see. Before November 22d, I think it might have been 2 days--it might have been 2 days. I would say about 2 days, approximately 2 days.


Mr. BALL. After you moved the cartons, then did you start laying the floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. After we moved the cartons, we started laying the floor. Then we had to move the cartons. As we go we would move cartons to vacate the space, so we could lay the floor.



The basic layout i described for the sixth floor window area is duplicated on the fifth floor.




JohnM


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I've thought about this some and I think John Mytton is right. At a glance at the two photographs, it doesn't seem right. That this could be a picture of the same set of boxes, unmoved.

However, looking at the two photographs, they seem to be taken from a similar angle .But looking at Don Roberdeau's excellent map at:

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one can see that Dillard's and Powell's positions were quite different. Both were to the east of that window.

Horizontally, the line from the east edge of the window to Dillard was 12 degrees off a perpendicular line to the wall. In contrast, Powell was 57 degrees away from such a perpendicular line. Horizontally, they were 45 degrees different from each other.

Because both were east of the eastern edge of the window, and if the line of boxes was 36 inches away from the window, both could see a few inches to the left of the western edge of the open window.

Dillard could see:

tan(12)*36 = 8 inches to the left.

Powell could see:

tan(57)*36 = 56 inches.

The sun is 23 degrees off of perpendicular. A shadow would be

tan(23)*36 = 15 inches to the right.

What does this mean?

The eastern (right) half (of Oswald's window was open. The western (left) half was closed. Most of the boxes visible in the Powell window were actually 3 feet back and directly behind the closed, western window.

The tall box, which John has labeled #1 is roughly lined up with the vertical separator that is a foot wide, between the closed and open window. 3 feet back from the window, the shadow would be offset by 15 inches. The shadow of the separator is cast just to the right of box #1, and so it is not visible.

Below is a crude drawing:



       --------- -------
       |       | | box |
       |  box  | |  #  |
       |       | |  1  |
       --------- -------
           |            |||||
         thin            wide
        shadow          shadow


 closed window          open window
*************** +++++ ---------------
      |         wide
    narrow      separator
     slate

                                         (*)
                                        Powell
                           (*)
                         Dillard


From Dillard's angle, only Box #1 could be seen. The box to it's right was behind the wide vertical slate and the closed window. But from where Powell was, he could see an additional 4 feet to the left, of a line of boxes 3 feet from the window. So Powell could see that box to the left of Box #1.

I tried seeing up my own open window on top of a chest of drawers, using 3 cardboard tubes that used to hold paper towels. I placed a box behind it. The top of the box appeared higher, closer to the horizontal cardboard tube, from the Powell angle than it did from the Dillard angle.

I would guess the top of Box # 1 was about a foot higher than the bottom of the open window.

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While my initial reaction was, "I'm not certain John is right", I am now quite confident that John does have it exactly right.

The Inspector Lestrades of the HSCA were baffled by the Mystery of the Self Moving Boxes but a true Sherlock Holmes would see that there is no real Mystery at all. It's just a matter of looking at the problem from the proper perspective.


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