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 January 20, 2012, 07:59:34 PM
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Full Member
Posts: 152
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Where did Oswald get this ammo from
1: Western Cartridge case's and Remington-Peters lead bullet's
2: Four Caranco rounds 5 if you believe he shot at Walker
So how could Oswald get his hands on the mixture ammo for his hand gun?
Did Oswald just walk in to a gun shop and say i just need 5 rounds for my rifle and no more and just enough rounds to load and reload my handgun!
There no place that would break up a box of ammo to sell just part of it.
The FBI check all gunshop and other places that sold ammo and none sold any ammo to Oswald.
So where did he get it?
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January 31, 2012, 03:18:39 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 6715
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As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Loginp.118 mentions capture of 35 italian carbines destined for cuban rebels. 1958. Supposedly the US Coast Guard seized 35 Italian carbines. None made it to Castro or his forces so how could they be their "popular" weapon?
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January 31, 2012, 03:42:58 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 6715
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Wrong. Two separate letters from Olin (parent company of Western Cartridge Company) confirm orders for 6.5mm Carcano cartridges for the US DoD that were filled "before 1944" and "during the Second World War".
The Italian cartidge is 6.5x52mm, not 52.5mm. Italian troops were still occupying Greece when Mussolini capitualted. German forces, in Greece, made Italian troops surrender their 6.5x52mm Carcanos before allowing the Italians to return home. This turned out to be a prudent idea, as ex-Italian soldiers were quick to form the Italian co-Belligerent Forces and fought side by side with Allied forces to drive the Germans from Italy. At one point, this force comprised one-eighth of all combat troops in Italy.
If the majority were still using their 6.5mm Carcanos, wouldn't it make sense that the US would want to supply them with ammunition?
And that guy who wrote the letters did not know what he was talking about. He wasn't there at the time. The DoD contracts stands on its own regardless of liars. Please don't try to put a 52 mm long cartridge into a Mannlicher-Carcano. Very dangerous. And different 6.5 mm cartridges may have different shoulder profiles. BTW, my source is the BEST and the AUTHORITATIVE source. Small Arms Ammunition Identification Guide from the Army Materiel Command. I might also remind you that the WCC ammo was made to the original Italian SMI specifications. Your source? Many people say 6.5 x 52 as a shorthand, but the actual length and classification is 52.5. Dave Emary wrote a definitive article on the cartridge and referred to it as 6.5 x 52. But even he knows it is really 52.5 mm long and he posts this diagram of the cartridge specifications. As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login In case your calculator is broken, 2.067" equals 52.5 mm. When the Italian troops surrendered they had plenty of ammo. No need to wait for a contract in 1954 from the US.
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January 31, 2012, 03:56:42 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 6715
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How would you distinguish between a WCC 6.5mm Carcano cartridge made in 1954 and one made in the Second World War? And where were Oswald's ammo boxes?
I have to assume that you slipped and mean a WCC cartridge made in WWII. They didn't, but if they did the design might have been different and the materials might have been different. If you meant an SMI cartridge the difference is obvious. Different type of primer. The necks are crimped. That is how I knew at just a glance that the M-C ammo they were selling with the clip were SMI. Not sure if they would ever have used a date on the headstamp. The SMI cartridges usually had a date on the headstamp and the base is indented. As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login Oswald threw away the ammo box, singular. Big deal. He was just down to 5 rounds then.
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January 31, 2012, 04:03:43 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 6715
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i'm no warren commission defender. more importantly, while mr marsh seems to disagree, the carcano was not a rare, or hard to find, weapon in the 1950's. believing that oswald was using ammunition originally ordered by the u.s. government? well, that seems to point towards conspircay. (or did i miss something?)
Well, I think you're not trying hard enough to develop your reputation as a kook. You should be claiming that naturally Oswald would use CIA supplied ammunition. I never said the Carcano was rare. But they were not selling a lot of them in 1954. Someone had a stash of them and the CIA needed ammo for them. You are not allowed to ask who the client is who was supposed to receive 4 millions rounds of WCC M-C ammo.
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February 01, 2012, 02:53:36 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 589
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Well, I think you're not trying hard enough to develop your reputation as a kook. You should be claiming that naturally Oswald would use CIA supplied ammunition.
I never said the Carcano was rare.
But they were not selling a lot of them in 1954. Someone had a stash of them and the CIA needed ammo for them.
You are not allowed to ask who the client is who was supposed to receive 4 millions rounds of WCC M-C ammo.
well, i always break the rules. so, who was the client? a) guatemalan invasion? wasn't that '54? b) syria '56, '57 c) vietnam post french '53 d) costa rica "mid '50's" soorry, it's hard to know exactly where the company was working then, even with the FOIA. by the way, you should head to wiki, and set them straight. "After World War II, Italy replaced its Carcano rifles first with British Lee-Enfields and then with the US .30 caliber (7.62 mm) M1 Garand semi-automatic rifle which the Italians labeled the 'Model 1952 (M52). Finland sold all of its approximately 74,000 remaining 7.35 mm M91/38 Carcano rifles on the surplus market. As a consequence, large quantities of surplus Carcanos were sold in the USA and Canada beginning in the 1950s. "
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February 01, 2012, 09:28:40 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 6715
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well, i always break the rules. so, who was the client?
a) guatemalan invasion? wasn't that '54?
b) syria '56, '57
c) vietnam post french '53
d) costa rica "mid '50's"
soorry, it's hard to know exactly where the company was working then, even with the FOIA.
by the way, you should head to wiki, and set them straight.
"After World War II, Italy replaced its Carcano rifles first with British Lee-Enfields and then with the US .30 caliber (7.62 mm) M1 Garand semi-automatic rifle which the Italians labeled the 'Model 1952 (M52). Finland sold all of its approximately 74,000 remaining 7.35 mm M91/38 Carcano rifles on the surplus market. As a consequence, large quantities of surplus Carcanos were sold in the USA and Canada beginning in the 1950s. "
Sure, the 7.35 mm Carcanos. Irrelevant. And again you are not allowed to ask who the client state was. There are lots of false statements on the Internet. I don't have time to correct them all. Usually only when they pop up in a discussion.
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February 08, 2012, 06:59:12 PM
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Sr. Member
Posts: 305
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well, i always break the rules. so, who was the client?
a) guatemalan invasion? wasn't that '54?
b) syria '56, '57
c) vietnam post french '53
d) costa rica "mid '50's"
soorry, it's hard to know exactly where the company was working then, even with the FOIA.
by the way, you should head to wiki, and set them straight.
"After World War II, Italy replaced its Carcano rifles first with British Lee-Enfields and then with the US .30 caliber (7.62 mm) M1 Garand semi-automatic rifle which the Italians labeled the 'Model 1952 (M52). Finland sold all of its approximately 74,000 remaining 7.35 mm M91/38 Carcano rifles on the surplus market. As a consequence, large quantities of surplus Carcanos were sold in the USA and Canada beginning in the 1950s. "
From a "highly reliable" source, actual production of the first WCC 6.5mm Carcano round began in late 1953. The initial production was "rushed" through on ballistic testing in order to confirm that the ammunition complied with Department of the Army small arms/munitions/Ordnance regulations and requirements. Therefore, whatever the conceptual usage of the ammunition was to be for, it's potential need was conceived in late 1953.
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February 08, 2012, 10:57:28 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 6715
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From a "highly reliable" source, actual production of the first WCC 6.5mm Carcano round began in late 1953.
The initial production was "rushed" through on ballistic testing in order to confirm that the ammunition complied with Department of the Army small arms/munitions/Ordnance regulations and requirements.
Therefore, whatever the conceptual usage of the ammunition was to be for, it's potential need was conceived in late 1953.
The order may have been put in at the end of 1953. The need may have existed in the Summer of 1953. As for production they "needed it yesterday."
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