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 January 10, 2012, 05:07:03 PM
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Geof Nis (odd name) and others claim that the person we see in the last couple of Z-frames sitting upright in his seat is John Connally. thread: As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or LoginI doubted that and think it is JFK whose dead body was pushed up by Jackie after she climbed back into the car. After I looked closer at the Z film, the MPI medium zoomed version, I am not so sure anymore. It looks as if it is indeed Connally. I have stabilized the Z frames starting with Z-221, that is when Connally is first visible after the limo reappeared from behind the roadsign. The focus is on Connally's face. His face is always in the center of the video frame (not of the Z-film). The "anchor" so to say is Connally's head/face. You can check it by placing your mouse cursor over his head and leave it there, the cursor is always on his head. Since a GIF animation is way to large I put together a video an uploaded it to YouTube. I am still undecided, I think it is possible that after we lose Connally for a couple of frames when he disappears behind the Turnpike roadsign he was going down in his seat completely and JFK was pushed up by Jackie by then. Here is the Video: <![CDATA[As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
<a href="http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?action=login">Login</a>]]> PS: the center of the crosshairs I have added represents the exact center of the videoframe (not the center of the Z-film).
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"ich bin ein Berliner" As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login"There's none so blind as those who will not see."
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January 11, 2012, 08:56:41 PM
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i'm speechless; it is the planet of the apes z456, i will generate z452 but your 452 seems to be the universal z454 As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or LoginUploaded with As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or LoginThierry, could you post the wireframe file of the above ? ... you know ... without the texture overlayed ? The frame-count of the MPI version is not correct as far as I know... looks amazing, please continue with the other frames
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« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 09:10:24 PM by Gerda Dunckel »
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January 11, 2012, 11:12:57 PM
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thanks a lot Thierry  This is Thierry's 3D reconstruction of MPI Z452 with the passengers JFK, Connally and Jackie in their normal sitting positions:  This is MPI's Z452:  both overlaid:  The 3 backseat passengers (JFK, COnnally, Jackie) in the 3D model sit in ther normal sitting positions. GIF animation of Thierry's 3D model and the MPI Z452 place your mouse cursor over any distinctive point of the limo like the rollbar or the frontbench. Both images match pretty well. And look at Connally's and JFK's positions in the limo. 
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« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 01:07:43 PM by Gerda Dunckel »
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January 12, 2012, 12:48:52 AM
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As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or LoginIn case the link doesn't take you right to it, please see my reply, the first new posting, at the top of page 5 of the topic the link goes to. Probably should have posted it within this topic instead.
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"you're the cop, you figure it out"
-Lee H. Oswald to Dallas Police detectives, weekend
of 11-22-63.
"Part of the reason why we avoided talking about this thing, because every time you say something, somebody misinterprets what you say."
-James. J. Humes, excerpt of ARRB statement, 2-13-96
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January 12, 2012, 02:05:36 AM
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Theirry / Gerda Check out frames 457 ... and then 456 and 458... I know the image is badly blurred... but Hill is GONE... Probably an illusion of the bad frame.... I had noticed this yesterday and your graphic reminded me... NOT saying he is not there... I had this long back-n-forth with Fetzer about the Z film and this just shows me that using a single frame to say anything conclusive (like 303) is a bit of a stretch... and not EVERYTHING in that frame is so badly blurred... when you compare the white streak on the trunk in 456/458 to the blurred 457... Just seemed out of place to me... and was interested in your thoughts since you are working with this section of the film Thanks DJ  and then I find this... if that is JFK sitting up... by the time of this picture he is on his back in the back seat... based on the position of his hand 
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January 12, 2012, 10:38:59 AM
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Thanks david, i'll look at it. I think he is just behind the last lampost on a blurry frame, i'll make a 3d sim. I thought that my model couldn't help on these frames.
About the shoe, it is Clinton hill's shoe, as described in his testimony (see below), but in the newspaper, they retouched the shoe to make it more visible and credit JFK.
Clinton Hill to Arlen Specter;
"To the nearest hospital, quick."....He said, "We have been hit."...I had my legs -- I had my body above the rear seat, and my legs hooked down into the rear seat, one foot outside the car...
To geoff, i saw your post and pictures. the two zones you indicated belong to jackie, shadows of hat, body and head it can be seen better in the video.
I have open mind with LN'ers ans CT'ers, but my mind refuse to accept that a Mad Jackie digged in the seat and pushed her husband in the line of fire. (despite the reconstruction show that).
To gerda, i promise i will do an enhancement with the astronomy software as i did for some frames. The Zombie does not move on some frames after z454. We 'll see that tonight.
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« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 12:31:19 PM by Thierry Speth »
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January 12, 2012, 06:00:42 PM
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An illusion, David. Its the shoe bottom, not his hand. The question is (discussed here more than once) who's shoe? Some think JFKs, others think it is Clint Hill's. I say it is Kennedy's.
In a bad image, that's what it does look like... In this much better version - that's his hand... See what I can do about further verification... I had not seen that portion of the image as clear as the insert before.... and it would be impossible for that to be either Hill's or JFK's foot... DJ
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January 12, 2012, 06:10:15 PM
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It is obvious that the "one foot out of the car" is what we see in the top right image in my collage... look closely... that MAY be a foot closer to the camera... but that is DEFINITELY JFK's hand  Thanks david, i'll look at it. I think he is just behind the last lampost on a blurry frame, i'll make a 3d sim. I thought that my model couldn't help on these frames.
About the shoe, it is Clinton hill's shoe, as described in his testimony (see below), but in the newspaper, they retouched the shoe to make it more visible and credit JFK.
Clinton Hill to Arlen Specter;
"To the nearest hospital, quick."....He said, "We have been hit."...I had my legs -- I had my body above the rear seat, and my legs hooked down into the rear seat, one foot outside the car...
To geoff, i saw your post and pictures. the two zones you indicated belong to jackie, shadows of hat, body and head it can be seen better in the video.
I have open mind with LN'ers ans CT'ers, but my mind refuse to accept that a Mad Jackie digged in the seat and pushed her husband in the line of fire. (despite the reconstruction show that).
To gerda, i promise i will do an enhancement with the astronomy software as i did for some frames. The Zombie does not move on some frames after z454. We 'll see that tonight.
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January 12, 2012, 06:57:36 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 2355
Germany
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Theirry / Gerda Check out frames 457 ... and then 456 and 458... I know the image is badly blurred... but Hill is GONE... Probably an illusion of the bad frame.... I had noticed this yesterday and your graphic reminded me... NOT saying he is not there... I had this long back-n-forth with Fetzer about the Z film and this just shows me that using a single frame to say anything conclusive (like 303) is a bit of a stretch... and not EVERYTHING in that frame is so badly blurred... when you compare the white streak on the trunk in 456/458 to the blurred 457... Just seemed out of place to me... and was interested in your thoughts since you are working with this section of the film Thanks DJ David, Hill just dissapears for one frame behind the lamppost. This is Z455 to 458:     and then I find this... if that is JFK sitting up... by the time of this picture he is on his back in the back seat... based on the position of his hand John Woods once posted these images:  
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January 12, 2012, 07:06:34 PM
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Thanks Gerda... But I'm not giving up the ghost on this one... If I caould find a better version of the photo..... but it's pretty obvious to me... compared to the strange angels needed to get the foot there.... my .02 DJ and thanks for the great view of 457... you and the others in this photographic section are wonderful!... 
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January 12, 2012, 07:14:30 PM
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Gerda,
I'm not voting either, however will post this.. My gut feel, initial reaction when I first saw these frames (before joining forum) was JFK. The profile in many ways oddly looks just too perfect on Z456. I've revisited Z374,Z394 and looked at Z444/Z445. Just, so I understand your dilemma/change of mind ? (maybe like myself). I assume you are indicating that the person is in the middle right seat then ? (ie we have not got 3 persons in/on the rear seat). As an aside, does Clint Hill make a 180 degree turn and look back after Z432 or am I losing it !
Hi Peter, We can see Connally moving around in his seat in the Z film long after 313, we can see that he did not go down in his seat immediately but turns his head up and he appears to be looking into the backseat, the film shows that pretty obvious till we lose his head when the limo disappears behind the 2nd roadsign, the sprocket holes and the leaves. Thierry's diagram shows pretty well that the seating positions in the limo of JFK and Connally almost overlap by then from Z's pov. Or that at least if Connally would still be looking around in an semi upright position his head and torso would not be where we see the person sit up straight. Also consider that we see the heads right profile, Connally's head and face would be visible from his left profile unless he turned around 180 degrees by then. This is as good as I can explain it in english :)
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