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 January 05, 2012, 04:02:48 PM
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Newbie
Posts: 40
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THE WARREN COMISSION
The comission came into exhistance with President L.BJohnson's executive order 11130 as the Presidents comission ivestigation on the assaination of President J.F.Kennedy.
It was put together by President Johnson along with input from J.Edgar Hoover.
The members were:-
Earl Warren-Supreme court chief justice(he didn't want the job but was virtually conscripted by President Johnson)
Alan Dulles-Former head of the CIA-Removed from his position by President JFK
Richard Russell-Senator for Georgia(he despised Warren because of his liberal views and again was virtually conscripted by President Johnson)
John Sherman-Senator for Kentucky
Gerald Ford-House representative for Mitchigan(member of skull and bones)
Hal Boggs-House representative for Louisiana
John j.Mcloy-Former head of the World Bank
The comission appointed J.Lee Rankine as head of an investigative team of 16 lawyers including Arlen Spector
What did they have to work with ? A five volume report from the FBI.
The comission themselves having studied it claimed it was narrow minded,claiming 3 shots from Oswald and a rush to judgement. It didn't even mention that Governor George Conally had been shot. The FBI were almost hostile to the comission and they knew that J.Edgar Hoover who they were terrified of would take any review of his organisations work personally.
Rumours abounded at the time that Oswald was an FBI informant. Alan Dulles told the rest of the comission that it wasn't worth investigating as very likely they would not be told the truth.The comission were totally reliant on the FBI files because it was all they had to work with.
tHThe comission knew that Oswald had been interviewed 2or3 times by the FBI on his return from Russia and did know that Oswald when he was arrested for a disturbance for handing out leaflets for the fair play for Cuba movement had from his Police cell requested a meeting with an FBI official. Due to fear of Hoover this was not investigated. This is unfortunate in that it may well have lead to Bannister,Shaw,Ferrie etc.
The comission also were never informed about CIA covert operations against Cuba such as operation mongoose or relevant information regarded the co-opting of the mob to dispose of Fidel Castro. Alan Dulles never informed his fellow comission members even though he had been in charge of these operations from 1959-61 and that Castro knew of these attempts to assasinate him.Infact the CIA co-operated as little as possible with the comission. They also knew nothing of President JFK's executive order 11110 either and the printing of real American dollars taking away the Federal reserves power.
People may claim this was irrelevant but it was not in a proper investigation as they would have had access to the wider picture of what was happening in the background leading up to Dallas.
The situation with Jack Ruby was almost and understandably treated as a side issue,however the comission had information and telephone records that if they had been investigated thoroughly would have shown links to Oswald,Bannister,Ferrie and telphone calls with Carlos Marcello.
Then there's the testimony of Silvia Odiho regarding a visit to here apartment from two Cubans using code names and a Leon Oswald. She recognised Oswald from that meeting immediately in the aftermath of the assaination. J.Edgar found 2 Cubans who testified it was them but not Oswald and that was included in history in the Warren Report. These Cubans admitted it was not true and thet made it up but as the Report was already in print nothing was changed. So a lie was include there with no further investigations.
Now at its final summary the comission had a problem,Earl Warren and 3 other members adhered to the single bullet theory as proposed by junior investigator Arlen Spector, however 3 did not,the most vociferous decenter was Senator Richard Russell who wanted his objections noted in the final report. At the final conference on 18th September 1964 Warren refused Russell's request but a compromise with the wording was eventually agreed upon. The summary transcript at this final meeting should have stated all these facts but for some strange reason none of this was noted in the final transcript.
In conclusion they probably did the best they could in the circumstancies however IF YOU BASE YOUR FACTS ON THE WARREN COMISSION I WOULD SUGGEST IT IS A VERY MINDED VIEW AS IS THE REPORT. BASICALLY THE WARREN COMISSION REPORT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE CONSTRAINTS IT HAD TO OPERATE IN IS ABOUT AS MUCH USE AS A CHOCOLATE TEA POT.
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January 31, 2012, 12:52:28 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 525
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It's hard to underestimate your powers of deduction Ron. Thanks for the laugh. Quite simply, Oswald was apparently being hard-headed and arrogant. The authorities did not feel he would admit to the shooting. I think the DPD would have wanted to get him to do that. By informing him they checked and his alibi was false, Fritz the master interrogator may have applied pressure to the suspect during interrogation.
Yes, LHO was hard headed and arrogant. When an arrogant man's string runs out, very often he will resort to lies. Oswalds string had definitely run out. He was facing the death penalty in old sparky in Huntsville and he knew it. Cop killers don't get many sympathetic jurors in Texas, Presidential assassins who bring disgrace to Texas and Texans ,get even less. I am sure Fritz knew LHO was never going to confess to anything other than carrying a pistol in a movie theatre. I can't see him wasting much time in confessions, but he was probably trying to get as many lies out of Oswald as he possibly could.
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« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 01:49:35 AM by Ron Smith »
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January 31, 2012, 01:44:15 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 858
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How does the behavior you're describing fit with the "lone nut assassin who wants to get into the history books" the WC described? Holmes was only there for a fraction of the interrogation(s) and didn't get the full story. He was making presumptions. You're making the same mistakes/assumptions he made. "he didn't say which floor he was on", As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or LoginHarry D. Holmes U.S. Postal Inspector December 17,1963 "When asked as to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting, he stated that when lunch time
came, and he didn't say which floor he was on, he said one of Negro employees invited him to eat
lunch with him and he stated "You go on down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in
a few minutes." Before he could finish whatever he was doing, he stated, the commotion
surrounding the assassination took place and he went down stairs, a policeman questioned him as to
his identification and his boss stated that "he is one of our employees" whereupon the policeman
had him step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building.
I don't recall that anyone asked why he left or where or how he went. I just presumed that this had
been covered in an earlier questioning."To immediately confess and brag about the two killings would have only tarnished his name and possibly put his family in serious danger. Better to keep everyone guessing; as least, some chumps out there would contribute to his defense fund. And John Abt would more likely participate in his trial if he maintained the pretense of innocence. It's standard procedure for Marxist revolutionaries to maintain innocence when arrested. Doesn't matter that Oswald didn't specific a floor; it had to be one of the upper floors (I believe his duties took him to the fifth and sixth floors, and the first where he picked up orders and returned there with the books on the order form). Holmes has Oswald saying "You go on down and send the elevator back up" (that's upper floor). Then "the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and he went down stairs" (from an upper floor). If Holmes is right, that is a significant slip by Oswald. He has said he "went down stairs" after the assassination. No one on the fifth floor saw him. No one on the sixth floor saw him. However, from the outside of the building, Oswald was seen by Harold Brennan, who witnessed him firing a rifle out of the Sniper's Nest window. Oswald did not turn in his clipboard (it was found later on the sixth floor with none of the orders on it having been filled). Oswald did not tell a soul he was leaving the workplace; guess he figured he wasn't going into work Monday. According to the Warren Commission and the HSCA, Oswald went back to his boardinghouse, got his revolver and murdered a Dallas policeman in cold blood in front of a number of witnesses. Maybe by Sunday morning, his conscience was getting to him and he was letting things slip. If he had lived into the following week, he might have negotiated a confession in exchange for his wife and family being looked after. No sense in needlessly confessing for no benefit (other than to clear his conscience).
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 "It's, uh, very heavy." — President Johnson on receiving the Warren Report in the Oval Office, Sept. 24, 1964
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January 31, 2012, 02:46:43 AM
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Full Member
Posts: 143
That phrase at the beginning of "The X-Files"...
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To immediately confess and brag about the two killings would have only tarnished his name and possibly put his family in serious danger. Better to keep everyone guessing; as least, some chumps out there would contribute to his defense fund. And John Abt would more likely participate in his trial if he maintained the pretense of innocence. It's standard procedure for Marxist revolutionaries to maintain innocence when arrested.
Doesn't matter that Oswald didn't specific a floor; it had to be one of the upper floors (I believe his duties took him to the fifth and sixth floors, and the first where he picked up orders and returned there with the books on the order form).
Holmes has Oswald saying "You go on down and send the elevator back up" (that's upper floor). Then "the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and he went down stairs" (from an upper floor). If Holmes is right, that is a significant slip by Oswald. He has said he "went down stairs" after the assassination.
No one on the fifth floor saw him. No one on the sixth floor saw him. However, from the outside of the building, Oswald was seen by Harold Brennan, who witnessed him firing a rifle out of the Sniper's Nest window.
Oswald did not turn in his clipboard (it was found later on the sixth floor with none of the orders on it having been filled). Oswald did not tell a soul he was leaving the workplace; guess he figured he wasn't going into work Monday. According to the Warren Commission and the HSCA, Oswald went back to his boardinghouse, got his revolver and murdered a Dallas policeman in cold blood in front of a number of witnesses.
Maybe by Sunday morning, his conscience was getting to him and he was letting things slip. If he had lived into the following week, he might have negotiated a confession in exchange for his wife and family being looked after. No sense in needlessly confessing for no benefit (other than to clear his conscience).
Stay with the evidence. Most students of the assassination would have a difficult time not placing Oswald in the SN. But to waste energy on continuing to justify Oswald's guilt isn't relevant. Finding more about his motivation and his subsequent actions is. Somewhere in there is the secret of the whole truth. How he got to the TSBD as an employee, how he got out of the TSBD and managed to walk seven blocks to get to a cab at the height of the furor, why he shot and murdered Tippitt, and then somehow managed to get captured for this feat even though he wasn't caught for the assassination. Not to mention why a night club managed to be in a police garage when the assassin of a President is being forwarded, let alone be carrying a gun, let alone managed to shoot and murder the assassin. This is the key place that the LN theory is at its most vulnerable.
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January 31, 2012, 03:07:16 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 1168
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Who was George Connally?
He was John Connally's twin brother who took a bullet for the Governor.
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January 31, 2012, 03:34:23 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 2148
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To immediately confess and brag about the two killings would have only tarnished his name and possibly put his family in serious danger. Better to keep everyone guessing; as least, some chumps out there would contribute to his defense fund. And John Abt would more likely participate in his trial if he maintained the pretense of innocence. It's standard procedure for Marxist revolutionaries to maintain innocence when arrested.
Doesn't matter that Oswald didn't specific a floor; it had to be one of the upper floors (I believe his duties took him to the fifth and sixth floors, and the first where he picked up orders and returned there with the books on the order form).
Holmes has Oswald saying "You go on down and send the elevator back up" (that's upper floor). Then "the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and he went down stairs" (from an upper floor). If Holmes is right, that is a significant slip by Oswald. He has said he "went down stairs" after the assassination.
No one on the fifth floor saw him. No one on the sixth floor saw him. However, from the outside of the building, Oswald was seen by Harold Brennan, who witnessed him firing a rifle out of the Sniper's Nest window.
Oswald did not turn in his clipboard (it was found later on the sixth floor with none of the orders on it having been filled). Oswald did not tell a soul he was leaving the workplace; guess he figured he wasn't going into work Monday. According to the Warren Commission and the HSCA, Oswald went back to his boardinghouse, got his revolver and murdered a Dallas policeman in cold blood in front of a number of witnesses.
Maybe by Sunday morning, his conscience was getting to him and he was letting things slip. If he had lived into the following week, he might have negotiated a confession in exchange for his wife and family being looked after. No sense in needlessly confessing for no benefit (other than to clear his conscience).
According to other accounts Oswald did specify the floor. The commotion LHO is referring to is Baker and Truly stopping him on the 2nd floor. Going down the stairs is LHO leaving the 2nd floor and going down to the 1st floor. Why the need to exaggerate and dramatize the obvious? Besides, Holmes lied to the WC about postal regulations so anything else he said or reported should be discarded regardless.
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Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.
John F. Kennedy
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January 31, 2012, 04:27:49 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 858
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According to other accounts Oswald did specify the floor.
The commotion LHO is referring to is Baker and Truly stopping him on the 2nd floor.
Going down the stairs is LHO leaving the 2nd floor and going down to the 1st floor.
Why the need to exaggerate and dramatize the obvious?
Besides, Holmes lied to the WC about postal regulations so anything else he said or reported should be discarded regardless.
Hey, Gearbox. Read Holmes' statement again: "When asked as to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting, he stated that when lunch time
came, and he didn't say which floor he was on, he said one of Negro employees invited him to eat
lunch with him and he stated "You go on down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in
a few minutes." Before he could finish whatever he was doing, he stated, the commotion
surrounding the assassination took place and he went down stairs, a policeman questioned him as to
his identification and his boss stated that "he is one of our employees" whereupon the policeman
had him step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building.
I don't recall that anyone asked why he left or where or how he went. I just presumed that this had
been covered in an earlier questioning."Re: "The commotion LHO is referring to is Baker and Truly stopping him on the 2nd floor."He's on an upper floor prior to this statement: "Before he could finish whatever he was doing". That means he's still upstairs (supposedly on work duty, but we know otherwise). If he meant trying to get to the Coke machine, he would have said so (why, it speaks so eloquently of his innocence that millions of chumps have bought into it). Next, "the commotion surrounding the assassination took place" means the assassination, not the Baker-Truly encounter. It wasn't a "commotion". In fact, Oswald spells out the encounter quite clearly and it's hardly a "commotion". "He went down stairs", writes Holmes, and then: "a policeman questioned him". Oswald made a huge slip with that. He also denied that it was he who took the rifle from New Orleans to Dallas. That means he knew about the rifle. I would have like to have heard his take on the note he left for Marina the night he went after Walker.
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January 31, 2012, 05:40:59 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 2148
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Hey, Gearbox. Read Holmes' statement again:
"When asked as to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting, he stated that when lunch time
came, and he didn't say which floor he was on, he said one of Negro employees invited him to eat
lunch with him and he stated "You go on down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in
a few minutes." Before he could finish whatever he was doing, he stated, the commotion
surrounding the assassination took place and he went down stairs, a policeman questioned him as to
his identification and his boss stated that "he is one of our employees" whereupon the policeman
had him step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building.
I don't recall that anyone asked why he left or where or how he went. I just presumed that this had
been covered in an earlier questioning."
Re: "The commotion LHO is referring to is Baker and Truly stopping him on the 2nd floor."
He's on an upper floor prior to this statement: "Before he could finish whatever he was doing". That means he's still upstairs (supposedly on work duty, but we know otherwise). If he meant trying to get to the Coke machine, he would have said so (why, it speaks so eloquently of his innocence that millions of chumps have bought into it).
Next, "the commotion surrounding the assassination took place" means the assassination, not the Baker-Truly encounter. It wasn't a "commotion". In fact, Oswald spells out the encounter quite clearly and it's hardly a "commotion".
"He went down stairs", writes Holmes, and then: "a policeman questioned him".
Oswald made a huge slip with that. He also denied that it was he who took the rifle from New Orleans to Dallas. That means he knew about the rifle. I would have like to have heard his take on the note he left for Marina the night he went after Walker.
He knew what floor he was on, it's in all the other accounts. Holmes heard a fraction of the interrogation. Knothing new in your interpretation. You cherry pick what you need and ignore the rest.
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January 31, 2012, 05:58:22 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 858
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He knew what floor he was on, it's in all the other accounts.
Holmes heard a fraction of the interrogation.
Knothing new in your interpretation.
You cherry pick what you need and ignore the rest.
Oswald was on the sixth floor shooting the President. No one saw him in either lunchroom. The slip he gave up to Holmes is just topping on the cake.
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January 31, 2012, 10:17:29 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 2308
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Hey, Gearbox. Read Holmes' statement again:
"When asked as to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting, he stated that when lunch time
came, and he didn't say which floor he was on, he said one of Negro employees invited him to eat
lunch with him and he stated "You go on down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in
a few minutes." Before he could finish whatever he was doing, he stated, the commotion
surrounding the assassination took place and he went down stairs, a policeman questioned him as to
his identification and his boss stated that "he is one of our employees" whereupon the policeman
had him step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building.
I don't recall that anyone asked why he left or where or how he went. I just presumed that this had
been covered in an earlier questioning."
Re: "The commotion LHO is referring to is Baker and Truly stopping him on the 2nd floor."
He's on an upper floor prior to this statement: "Before he could finish whatever he was doing". That means he's still upstairs (supposedly on work duty, but we know otherwise). If he meant trying to get to the Coke machine, he would have said so (why, it speaks so eloquently of his innocence that millions of chumps have bought into it).
Next, "the commotion surrounding the assassination took place" means the assassination, not the Baker-Truly encounter. It wasn't a "commotion". In fact, Oswald spells out the encounter quite clearly and it's hardly a "commotion".
"He went down stairs", writes Holmes, and then: "a policeman questioned him".
Oswald made a huge slip with that. He also denied that it was he who took the rifle from New Orleans to Dallas. That means he knew about the rifle. I would have like to have heard his take on the note he left for Marina the night he went after Walker.
The statement from Holmes was prepared more than 3 weeks after the event. Looks like a good example of Chinese whispers to me. Who knows how he had been influenced by discussions with others and news reports in that period. If only they had recorded tapes of the interrogation or used stenographers.
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« Last Edit: January 31, 2012, 10:28:22 AM by Colin Crow »
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Even the Lone Ranger had a partner!
Beware of geeks bearing gifs!
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January 31, 2012, 04:31:20 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 858
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The statement from Holmes was prepared more than 3 weeks after the event. Looks like a good example of Chinese whispers to me. Who knows how he had been influenced by discussions with others and news reports in that period. If only they had recorded tapes of the interrogation or used stenographers.
Coincidental, then, that Oswald's admission of being upstairs perfectly matches his known whereabouts during the shooting and accords with the physical evidence. It even corresponds with Oswald being just inside the door by the stairway as Baker went by. Oswald either committed the assassination or he's the world most obliging patsy (bringing the rifle into work and killing a policeman during his flight).
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February 02, 2012, 04:50:42 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 2148
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Oswald was on the sixth floor shooting the President. No one saw him in either lunchroom.
The slip he gave up to Holmes is just topping on the cake.
"No one saw him in either lunchroom."As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or LoginReport of the FBI's First
Interview with Charles Givens Author's note: This is the actual report of the FBI's first interview with Charles Givens. Givens is reported as saying nothing about the alleged encounter with Oswald on the sixth floor that he was to describe to the Commission much later. Rather, he is reported to have told the FBI on the day of the assassination that he saw Oswald on the first floor at the same time he later told the Commission he saw Oswald on the sixth floor. This FBI report was not published by the Commission or mentioned in the Warren Report. FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION Date 11/23/63 CHARLES DOUGLAS GIVENS, 2511 Cochran Street, advised he was employed by the Texas School Book Depository, Houston and Elm Street, from October 1, 1963, to present time. GIVENS said he has worked at this same position as a wrapper on several occasions prior to this employment.
On November 22, 1963, GIVENS worked on the sixth floor of the building until about 11:30 A.M. when he used the elevator to travel to the first floor where he used the restroom at about 11:35 A.M. or 11:40 A.M. GIVENS then walked around on the first floor until 12 o'clock noon, at which time he walked onto the sidewalk and stood for several minutes, then walked to the Classified Parking Lot at Elm and Records Street. GIVENS then walked to Main Street to watch the parade and after the President and the group had passed, he walked back to the parking lot, at which time he heard several shots fired from the direction of the building at which he is employed. He attempted to return to work but was told that he had been released for the balance of the day.
GIVENS advised that a white male, known as LEE, was employed in the same building and worked as a wrapper or order filler. He said he saw this same person's picture on television on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, who was supposed to have been the person being investigated for the shooting of the President. LEE worked on all floors of the building, and on November 22, 1963, GIVENS recalls observing LEE working on the fifth floor during the morning filling orders. LEE was standing by the elevator in the building at 11:30 A.M. when GIVENS went to the first floor. When he started down in the elevator, LEE yelled at him to close the gates on the elevator so that he (LEE) could have the elevator returned to the sixth floor. GIVENS said that during the past few days LEE had commented that he rode to work with a boy named WESLEY.
GIVENS said all employees enter the back door of the building when JACK DOUGHERTY, the foreman opens the door at about 7 A.M. On the morning of November 22, 1963, GIVENS observed LEE reading a newspaper in the domino room where the employees eat lunch about 11:50 A.M. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- on 11/22/63 at Dallas, Texas File # DL 89-43 by Special Agent WILL HAYDEN GRIFFEN and BARDWELL D. ODUM (HM) Date dictated 11/23/63
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February 02, 2012, 05:00:56 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 2148
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Oswald was on the sixth floor shooting the President. No one saw him in either lunchroom.
The slip he gave up to Holmes is just topping on the cake.
"No one saw him in either lunchroom."As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or LoginFBI Report on Mrs. R. E. Arnold Author's note: The Warren Commission stated in its Report that it knew of no Book Depository employee who claimed to have seen Oswald between 11:55 and 12:30 on the day of the assassination. This was false, as this FBI report from the Commission's files reveals. The Warren Report never mentions Mrs. Arnold and this FBI document was omitted from the Commission's published evidence. FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION Date 11/26/63 Mrs. R. E. ARNOLD, Secretary, Texas School Book Depository, advised she was in her office on the second floor of the building on
November 22, 1963, and left that office between 12:00 and 12:15 PM, to go downstairs and stand in front of the building to view the
Presidential Motorcade. As she was standing in front of the building, she stated she thought she caught a fleeting glimpse of LEE
HARVEY OSWALD standing in the hallway between the front door and the double doors leading to the warehouse, located on the first floor.
She could not be sure that this was OSWALD, but said she felt it was and believed the time to be a few minutes before 12:15 PM.
She stated thereafter she viewed the Presidential Motorcade and heard the shots that were fired at the President; however, she
could furnish no information of value as to the individual firing the shots or any other information concerning OSWALD, whom she stated
she did not know and had merely seen him working in the building. ***************** on 11/26/63 at Dallas, Texas File # DL 89-43 by Special Agent RICHARD E. HARRISON/rmh Date dictated 11/26/63
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