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 December 13, 2011, 04:02:39 AM
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Jr. Member
Posts: 59
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How did they come into public view? I heard a rumor that Bob Groden stole them while he was working with HSCA.
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December 13, 2011, 05:27:44 AM
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Full Member
Posts: 152
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There is different stories on how they came into the public .
I got my set back in 1990 from a person that worked on President Kennedy at Bethesda on the night of Nov 22 1963
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December 13, 2011, 05:34:47 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 6715
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How did they come into public view? I heard a rumor that Bob Groden stole them while he was working with HSCA.
A Secret Service agent named Fox leaked about a dozen of the black and white autopsy photos to a Dallas researcher named Mark Crouch who then circulated them to other researchers. Groden did not steal any autopsy photos. He did what he always does and photographed the originals. So his color photos are only copies of copies. What Groden did take were some of the public exhibits which were viewed on easels during the hearings. They were damaged by a leaky roof.
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December 14, 2011, 12:48:41 AM
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Super Member
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All well and good Mark... are there any in your collection that are not represented by the Fox series?
If you got them from Bethesda that night... you planning on sharing or writing the definitive tell all book with photos?
and I Would STILL like to see the two different sets Knudsen was involved with... as well as the video Pitzer took and dies for....
So many originals TAKEN by the SS/FBI with copies returned... which reminds me of the HSCA handwriting panel's report with "Reservations and Restrictions"
Here is one of the experts explaining the problem with copies... the same holds true for photos
I. Limitations on the examination (71) Five items of evidence were not examined in the original, but were copies. Photocopies have several limitations. They do not reproduce all the fine details in handwriting needed in making an examination and comparison. At best, they do not produce as sharp an image as a properly produced photograph, and they lack tonal gradations, a result of the contrasting process of reproduction. In addition, it is possible to incorporate or insert changes and alterations into copies. A method frequently used is to paste together parts of documents to make one fraudulent document, which is then copied. If the first copy can pass inspection, it will be used; if not, it will be reworked to eliminate all signs of alteration. This amended copy is then recopied for the finished product. This is usually referred to as the "cut and paste" method. (72) Document examiners only render a qualified or conditional opinion when working from copies. They stipulate that they have to examine the original before a definite opinion will be made. (73) Because of problems with the following documents, no definite opinion can be rendered:
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December 16, 2011, 02:17:18 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 6715
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All well and good Mark... are there any in your collection that are not represented by the Fox series?
If you got them from Bethesda that night... you planning on sharing or writing the definitive tell all book with photos?
and I Would STILL like to see the two different sets Knudsen was involved with... as well as the video Pitzer took and dies for....
So many originals TAKEN by the SS/FBI with copies returned... which reminds me of the HSCA handwriting panel's report with "Reservations and Restrictions"
Here is one of the experts explaining the problem with copies... the same holds true for photos
I. Limitations on the examination (71) Five items of evidence were not examined in the original, but were copies. Photocopies have several limitations. They do not reproduce all the fine details in handwriting needed in making an examination and comparison. At best, they do not produce as sharp an image as a properly produced photograph, and they lack tonal gradations, a result of the contrasting process of reproduction. In addition, it is possible to incorporate or insert changes and alterations into copies. A method frequently used is to paste together parts of documents to make one fraudulent document, which is then copied. If the first copy can pass inspection, it will be used; if not, it will be reworked to eliminate all signs of alteration. This amended copy is then recopied for the finished product. This is usually referred to as the "cut and paste" method. (72) Document examiners only render a qualified or conditional opinion when working from copies. They stipulate that they have to examine the original before a definite opinion will be made. (73) Because of problems with the following documents, no definite opinion can be rendered:
Several years ago Mark Crouch and Robert Groden showed the Fox set at a conference up here at Emerson College. I bought my Fox photos from Walt Brown at one of the conferences in Washington. I saw more of the photos at Robert's house. About half of the photos are just similar shots from similar angles, producing stereo pairs.
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« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 09:48:02 PM by Anthony Marsh »
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December 16, 2011, 02:28:42 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 2568
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Several years ago Mark Crouch and Robert Groden showed the Fox set at a conference up here at Emerson College.
I bought my Fox photos from Walt Brown at one of the conferences in Washington.
I saw more of the photos at Robert's house. About half of the photos are just similars shots from similar angles, producing stereo pairs.
So you are NOT of the opinion that Mark here has anything we haven't seen before? I know you've seen ALOT... but if he has photos from someone THAT NIGHT... it's possible, no?
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December 16, 2011, 02:33:38 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 6715
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So you are NOT of the opinion that Mark here has anything we haven't seen before? I know you've seen ALOT...
but if he has photos from someone THAT NIGHT... it's possible, no?
Sure, why not? Someone out there may have the Knudsen photos. Someone may have copies of the 5 destroyed photos. There are lots of official photos which Fox did not give to Crouch. Many are just duplicates of views we already have.
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December 16, 2011, 08:08:19 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 2633
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From Lancer JFK Assassination Evidence: Autopsy Photos and Xrays For research purposes only. President Kennedy's Autopsy was carried out at Bethesda Naval Hospital on November 22-23, 1963. The official autopsy photographs have never been published and are under seal at the National Archives. On November 23, 1963, James K. Fox, photographer with the Intelligence Division of the US Secret Service, was given the autopsy film holders by JFK's personal physician, Admiral George Burkley, and told to develop them. On three occassions, he supervised their processing. According to Fox, Secret Service Agent Roy Kellerman said to make himself copies as they would be history someday. He made three sets of black and white autopsy photo prints at the Secret Service lab. On November 27, 1963, additional official copies were made at the National Photographic Interpretation Center (NPIC). In 1981, those pictures were sold to JFK researcher Mark Crouch. During this time copies of the photos were given to several JFK researchers. Fox died in 1987. Writer David Lifton published the Fox set in "Best Evidence" (1988 Carrol & Graf Reprint). Later the photos were published in other books. Crouch retired from research in 1993 and sold his JFK assassination collection, including negatives made from the photos, to researcher Walt Brown who continues to make them available to researchers. In 1992, the official autopsy photos were specifically exempted from the JFK Records Act and will not be released. ARRB Senior Staffer Doug Horne stated that after viewing digital copies of the original photos, he noted the Fox unofficial photos are cropped differently and are degraded as compared to the originals in the National Archives but are basically the same. Some photos taken at the autopsy missing and are not now a part of the official collection. Horne's further, specific comments on the photos are available here. (1998 JFK Lancer Conference) The color photos were obtained by JFK researcher and amateur photographer Robert Groden who served as an upaid consultant to the House Select Committee on Assassinations. Groden photographed the color autopsy photos without permission. Groden was paid by "The Globe" tabloid at their 1991 printing of those photos and has also published them in his books. The photos below on our website are the Lifton copies named as he included them in his book, "Best Evidence". The X-rays are exhibits from the HSCA hearings and were obtained by JFK Lancer from the National Archives. As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
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December 19, 2011, 07:09:10 AM
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Full Member
Posts: 152
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They are the Fox set i got them from Mr. Paul O'Connor.
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