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 December 05, 2011, 11:30:23 PM
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Helen Markham, in a statement given to the FBI's Bardwell Odum, said that the shooting of Tippit occurred "possibly around 1:30". This statement was given to Odum on the afternoon of Saturday, November 23rd. The point is, many CT's like to use Markham's 1:06 time estimate as if it were fact. I say that the woman was simply confused as to the exact time and it is silly to rely on her as far as what time the shooting occurred. As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
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"The TRUTH doesn't require anyone's belief." - Dale Myers
"The human mind craves a mystery more than it loves the truth." - Dan Rather
"Reason does not always appeal to unreasonable men." - John F. Kennedy
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January 26, 2012, 05:12:56 AM
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That phrase at the beginning of "The X-Files"...
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It makes no difference to me that Helen Markham described it as a "friendly conversation". Who cares? She did not hear what was said between the two. Evidently, the conversation wasn't so friendly so as to keep Tippit relaxed inside his patrol car. No. Tippit exited the car and was in the process of removing his revolver from it's holster when he was gunned down. It doesn't seem too friendly to me.
If you want to be silly enough to make a point based on Markham's thought that the conversation seemed friendly, then go ahead. Everyone reading this can see what kind of shaky ground you are on. But hey, have at it.
Well - really - the whole encounter is weird, Bill. There has to at least be some credence to what she said. Consider this - if you've got a fourth alternative to this, by all means let me know!! But I see the encounter happening from one of only three scenarios: (1) Tippitt suspected Oswald was the President's assassin. (2) Tippitt thought Oswald suspicious and was investigating why he was there. (3) Tippitt already knew Oswald. I think it unlikely that #1 is true, at least when he pulled up to him. If he suspected him of murdering a President, he'd be unlikely to confront him alone and would call for backup. #2 is quite possible. He could have encountered him that way, and in the course of discussion came to suspect he was the assassin. #3 is also possible - but I'll leave that to the CTs :) In many ways, #3 makes more sense, because I still have trouble reconciling why Oswald shot him. He'd have at least a chance to run with Tippitt getting out of the car, and Oak Cliff had lots of alleyways and wooded areas, so he could have at least had a chance of escaping. The extra rationale of #3 becomes - if Tippitt WAS picking him up as an unwitting participant - Oswald would know that he was cooked at this stage, and Tippitt was a loose end. And because of that...he would have no choice but to kill him. As I've said before, I have zero belief that Tippitt was involved in a plot to kill the President. I can reconcile the idea that he may have agreed to pick a slightly built guy in Oak Cliff and take him to the airport as a favor to a friend. He didn't "know" Oswald, but with all the police radio chatter, it's no stretch that he put two and two together while talking to Oswald, and got out to arrest him - knowing the favor wasn't at all what he thought. It's just a theory, obviously. But it's hardly a big stretch. And IF Helen Markham is accurate in what she saw - which is a gigantic IF - it makes sense.
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January 26, 2012, 05:19:55 AM
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Well - really - the whole encounter is weird, Bill. There has to at least be some credence to what she said. Consider this - if you've got a fourth alternative to this, by all means let me know!! But I see the encounter happening from one of only three scenarios:
(1) Tippitt suspected Oswald was the President's assassin.
(2) Tippitt thought Oswald suspicious and was investigating why he was there.
(3) Tippitt already knew Oswald.
I think it unlikely that #1 is true, at least when he pulled up to him. If he suspected him of murdering a President, he'd be unlikely to confront him alone and would call for backup. #2 is quite possible. He could have encountered him that way, and in the course of discussion came to suspect he was the assassin. #3 is also possible - but I'll leave that to the CTs :) In many ways, #3 makes more sense, because I still have trouble reconciling why Oswald shot him. He'd have at least a chance to run with Tippitt getting out of the car, and Oak Cliff had lots of alleyways and wooded areas, so he could have at least had a chance of escaping. The extra rationale of #3 becomes - if Tippitt WAS picking him up as an unwitting participant - Oswald would know that he was cooked at this stage, and Tippitt was a loose end. And because of that...he would have no choice but to kill him. As I've said before, I have zero belief that Tippitt was involved in a plot to kill the President. I can reconcile the idea that he may have agreed to pick a slightly built guy in Oak Cliff and take him to the airport as a favor to a friend. He didn't "know" Oswald, but with all the police radio chatter, it's no stretch that he put two and two together while talking to Oswald, and got out to arrest him - knowing the favor wasn't at all what he thought. It's just a theory, obviously. But it's hardly a big stretch. And IF Helen Markham is accurate in what she saw - which is a gigantic IF - it makes sense.
I don't have a problem with #2.
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January 26, 2012, 05:26:43 AM
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That phrase at the beginning of "The X-Files"...
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I don't have a problem with #2.
That's fair. I'm open to #2 or #3. Based on Oswald being a lone gunman, which is also a possibility, it could easily have happened as #2. Obviously, there has to be some evidence of consequence arise that would lead to #3, and as compelling as I think the theory is, it's nothing more than that, and I'd hate to see Tippitt's memory tarnished by mere conjecture. But the one thing I do think - #3 is a lot more likely than #1.
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January 26, 2012, 05:32:17 AM
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Bill and John,
If #2 is the case, how long do you think Tippit had to make that judgement? In trying to figure out the timing, it seems to me that Tippit would have seen Oswald about 8 seconds before the stop. This is assuming that Oswald is walking at 4 mph and Tippit travelling at 10 mph. If Oswald was at the Scoggins corner moving east, at that point Tippit would be about more than 200 feet from Oswald. Is Markham waiting at the corner for Tippit to cross be intersection? Was there other traffic that prevents her crossing, or was she still walking south to the corner?
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« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 05:54:12 AM by Colin Crow »
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Even the Lone Ranger had a partner!
Beware of geeks bearing gifs!
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January 26, 2012, 05:37:24 AM
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That's fair. I'm open to #2 or #3. Based on Oswald being a lone gunman, which is also a possibility, it could easily have happened as #2. Obviously, there has to be some evidence of consequence arise that would lead to #3, and as compelling as I think the theory is, it's nothing more than that, and I'd hate to see Tippitt's memory tarnished by mere conjecture. But the one thing I do think - #3 is a lot more likely than #1.
John, I tend to agree. #3 becomes a possibility for me due to a) the Gloco Station report by multiple people b) that Tippit is in Oak Cliff at all.
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January 26, 2012, 05:48:13 AM
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That phrase at the beginning of "The X-Files"...
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Bill and John,
If #2 is the case, how long do you think Tippit had to make that judgement? In trying to figure out the timing, it seems to me that Tippit would have seen Oswald about 8 seconds before the stop. This is assuming that Oswald is walking at 4 mph and Tippit travelling at 10 mph. If Oswald was at the Scoggins corner moving east, at that point Tippit would be about more than feet from Oswald. Is Markham waiting at the corner for Tippit to cross be intersection? Was there other traffic that prevents her crossing, or was she still walking south to the corner?
As I understand her testimony to the WC, she was at the northwest corner of the intersection of Patton and 10th, and Oswald was at the southeast corner when she got there and was moving along 10th. Her testimony's a little scatterbrained, but as I figure it, she waited on the curb as she saw the cruiser coming. She did say cars were coming and she couldn't cross. This, to me, is the really strange part of her testimony. Oswald was a full house past the corner before Tippitt encountered him, and she watched the exchange, and the shooting. But this area doesn't seem to be a busy one; hard to believe there would be enough traffic for that.
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January 26, 2012, 06:22:35 AM
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As I understand her testimony to the WC, she was at the northwest corner of the intersection of Patton and 10th, and Oswald was at the southeast corner when she got there and was moving along 10th. Her testimony's a little scatterbrained, but as I figure it, she waited on the curb as she saw the cruiser coming. She did say cars were coming and she couldn't cross. This, to me, is the really strange part of her testimony. Oswald was a full house past the corner before Tippitt encountered him, and she watched the exchange, and the shooting. But this area doesn't seem to be a busy one; hard to believe there would be enough traffic for that.
John, We know of at least 3 vehicles around that time. Jack Tatum was ahead of Benavides traveling west and passed Tippit and Oswald just before the shooting. HSCA testimony below..... "Although I did not remember the exact time I remember it was early in the afternoon on Friday, November 22, 1963. I was driving XXXX north on Denver and stopped at 10th St. when I first saw the squad car and men walking on the sidewalk near the squad car. Both the squad car and this young white male were coming in my direction(East on 10th Street). At the time I was just approaching the squad car, I noticed this young white male with both hands in the pockets of his zippered jacket leaning over the passenger side of the squad car. This young white male was looking into the squad car from the passenger side. The next thing I knew I heard something that sounded like gun shots as I approached the intersection. (10th & Patton)." Benavides must have been some distance back at the time of the shooting as he stops 15 feet east on the incident and had to travel around a parked car to do so. Bowley must have been after Benavides has stopped and the shooting just occurred, maybe 30 seconds or so. I believe he drove through and parked just past the intersection of 10th and Patton. This is from memory, but I think he said he did this because his daughter was in the car and he didn't want her to see scene. He then walked back and said that there were people gathered. So we have Markham at the intersection. If she sees Oswald cross in front of Scoggins' cab then Tippit is 25 seconds away to her right. Maybe she is approaching the intersection and waits for Tippit. Maybe she didn't really see Oswald cross as Scoggins does not remember seeing Oswald cross in front. Interesting that on a seemingly quiet street has a reasonable amount of traffic, and yet no one sees Oswald walking from the rooming house to the shooting scene........strange, as we have proof that there were cars driving in this district.
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January 27, 2012, 01:36:07 PM
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Following on from my last post. Amazing that not one person comes forward claiming to see Oswald walking on the route from 1026 North Beckley required to get to the Tippit scene. Not even those seeking a moment of spotlight as so many others were accused of with other Oswald sightings.
Colin, Colin, Colin.... what are you doing... questioning the WCR... Like our beloved honored "friend" VINCENT BUGLIOSI wrote: "how he got there has only academic value" .......... 
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"Good Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions." Jerry Falwell " I'm not  " T Winky
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January 27, 2012, 02:20:58 PM
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That phrase at the beginning of "The X-Files"...
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John,
We know of at least 3 vehicles around that time. Jack Tatum was ahead of Benavides traveling west and passed Tippit and Oswald just before the shooting. HSCA testimony below.....
"Although I did not remember the exact time I remember it was early in the afternoon on Friday, November 22, 1963. I was driving XXXX north on Denver and stopped at 10th St. when I first saw the squad car and men walking on the sidewalk near the squad car. Both the squad car and this young white male were coming in my direction(East on 10th Street). At the time I was just approaching the squad car, I noticed this young white male with both hands in the pockets of his zippered jacket leaning over the passenger side of the squad car. This young white male was looking into the squad car from the passenger side. The next thing I knew I heard something that sounded like gun shots as I approached the intersection. (10th & Patton)."
Benavides must have been some distance back at the time of the shooting as he stops 15 feet east on the incident and had to travel around a parked car to do so.
Bowley must have been after Benavides has stopped and the shooting just occurred, maybe 30 seconds or so. I believe he drove through and parked just past the intersection of 10th and Patton. This is from memory, but I think he said he did this because his daughter was in the car and he didn't want her to see scene. He then walked back and said that there were people gathered.
So we have Markham at the intersection. If she sees Oswald cross in front of Scoggins' cab then Tippit is 25 seconds away to her right. Maybe she is approaching the intersection and waits for Tippit. Maybe she didn't really see Oswald cross as Scoggins does not remember seeing Oswald cross in front.
Interesting that on a seemingly quiet street has a reasonable amount of traffic, and yet no one sees Oswald walking from the rooming house to the shooting scene........strange, as we have proof that there were cars driving in this district.
That's a cautious road to travel. I've read about the theory that Roscoe White was hiding nearby, popped out of the bushes and blew away Tippitt as he started to confront Oswald. I think that's a major stretch; I believe that it was Oswald and that he killed Tippitt without other involvement. Why he did it is a much bigger question.
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March 16, 2012, 05:29:02 AM
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More silliness? Benavides and Scoggins identify Oswald. Benavides, in his Warren Commission testimony, names O-s-w-a-l-d as the person he saw. Scoggins picked Oswald out of a lineup. These are facts, whether you like them or not.
Now, for the one-thousandth time, why do you keep saying that Clemons saw the shooting? Why does Clemons' (who was inside the house, a block away) statement that there were two men hold more weight with you than Benavides, Scoggins and Markham (who all describe only ONE man)? Why do you keep responding to my posts while ignoring these questions?
I just reread alot of this thread. One of the best threads ever. I can't finish it tonight but I am dying to know if Josephs ever explained why he keeps saying that Clemons saw the shooting. Does anyone know how that turned out.
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What is silly is thinking that two turns that reduced the speed of the car to 8-11 m.p.h. is no big deal when motorcades are suppose to keep a 44 m.p.h. speed..R Caprio
LHO had poor hand-eye coordination and proof of this is seen in the fact he couldn't drive an automobile-- R Caprio
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March 16, 2012, 06:12:06 AM
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I just reread alot of this thread. One of the best threads ever.
I can't finish it tonight but I am dying to know if Josephs ever explained why he keeps saying that Clemons saw the shooting. Does anyone know how that turned out.
Good question, Brian.
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