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 September 25, 2011, 08:08:42 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 9051
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This topic seems to be getting lost in other threads. So I figured I'd just begin this thread so the topic would have a place to call home, so to speak.
Barbara Davis testified to the Warren Commission, namely Joseph Ball. Mrs. Davis lived at the corner of Tenth and Patton. It was her front lawn that the suspect crossed, as he fled the scene after shooting Officer Tippit. She testified that she was in bed when she heard two shots. She went to her front door and saw a man crossing her lawn and emptying the revolver of spent shells:
"It (the gun) was open and he had his hands cocked like he was emptying it" - Barbara Davis
Mrs. Davis said that the man had the gun open and was "shaking it". She also testified that she found one shell under the window, in the grass, beside her house. She added that her sister-in-law, Virginia Davis, found another shell later in the day, by Virginia's door (the two women lived in the same building, but different doors for entry).
So, based on Barbara Davis' very reliable Warren Commission testimony regarding this incident, we know that two shells were found in the Davis yard, very close to the house, which is exactly the path taken by the fleeing suspect. We also know that the suspect was shaking the gun while it was open, most likely in an attempt to empty the weapon of the spent shells, while he was crossing through Barbara Davis' yard.
Barbara Davis and Virginia Davis both picked Oswald out of a lineup on Friday evening, the day of the Tippit murder, as the man that they had seen crossing their yard and shaking the weapon as if to remove the spent shells from it.
Domingo Benavides was driving his pick-up truck on Tenth Street, heading directly towards Tippit's stopped patrol car. He saw Oswald standing on the passenger side of the car. He saw Tippit standing on the driver's side of the car, as he had just gotten out of the car. Benavides heard one shot, then ducked down and heard two more shots. He looked back up in time to see Tippit fall to the ground.
Benavides also saw Oswald throw two of the shells to the ground. Then, Benavides watched as Oswald fled the scene by way of the front yard of the house on the corner (the Davis house). Benavides described seeing Oswald either empty more shells from the weapon or insert new bullets (he wasn't sure), as Oswald fled across the Davis yard. This testimony by Benavides corroborates Barbara Davis' version of events, as well, as far as seeing the suspect fiddle with the weapon as he fled across the yard.
Benavides said that he saw Oswald throw one shell into a bush and the other one beside the bush. By the way, Benavides also described Oswald as wearing a light beige jacket (the same color as the jacket later found and belonging to Oswald).
Benavides then describes how he "walked directly" to the shells that he witnessed the suspect throw away. He picked them up with a stick and placed them in an empty cigarette package. His Warren Commission testimony clearly described finding two of the shells.
To sum it up, Benavides immediately found two shells. These are the two shells that Poe had in the cigarette wrapper. Barbara Davis found one shell a couple hours after the shooting. Virginia Davis found one shell about four hours after the shooting. All four of these shells were found in and around the Davis yard. The Davis yard was nowhere near where one would expect to find shells if they were automatically ejected from the weapon, as the killer had it in his hand while firing at Tippit from a location very near the patrol car.
If fired from an automatic weapon, how did the shells get to the yard of the Davis house, which was located roughly 75 to 90 feet away from where the killer was standing, as he fired the shots that murdered Tippit?
Multiple witnesses saw Oswald either shake the weapon to get the shells out or throw shells to the ground, as he fled across the Davis yard.
This was not an automatic weapon and these were not automatic shells.
Can any CT who believes that the shells were auto, logically answer my above question?
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« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 08:18:00 AM by Bill Brown »
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"The TRUTH doesn't require anyone's belief." - Dale Myers
"The human mind craves a mystery more than it loves the truth." - Dan Rather
"Reason does not always appeal to unreasonable men." - John F. Kennedy
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January 28, 2012, 11:08:40 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 753
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Good stuff John. Don't forget what the star of show, Helen Markham had to say: <![CDATA[As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
<a href="http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?action=login">Login</a>]]> Joe What Markham says when she's a hundred years old is going to make much sense? In 1964 Markham got some clothes colours wrong, so what, she also said he had long pants, a jacket and was a little man and compared to huge Tippit, she was right! Also Oswald would have a ruddy complexion after walking a quick mile. JohnM
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January 28, 2012, 11:26:38 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 8758
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Mr. BELIN. Within the general area of Number 11 on Exhibit 523. Now, Mr. Scoggins, you stated you were sitting in your cab as you stopped at your intersection. You had a coke and your lunch.
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BELIN. What were you doing, eating your lunch?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I was in the process of eating it.
Mr. BELIN. You were in the process?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I had taken one or two bites of my sandwich and drank a couple of swallows out of my coke.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. DULLES. What time was this, approximately, as far as you can recall?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Around 1:20 in the afternoon.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Will you please state then what happened, what you saw, what you did, what you heard?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, I first seen the police car cruising east.
Mr. BELIN. About how fast was it cruising?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Not more than 10 or 12 miles a hour, I would say.
Mr. BELIN. It was going east on what street?
Mr. SCOGGINS. On Tenth.
Mr. BELIN. All right. Did you see the police car go across right in front of yours?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he went right down the street. He come from the west, going east On east Tenth.
Mr. BELIN. Then what did you see?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I noticed he stopped down there, and I wasn't paying too much attention to the man, you see, just used to see him every day, but then I kind of looked down the street, saw this, someone, that looked to me like he was going west, now, I couldn't exactly say whether he was going west or was in the process of turning around, but he was facing west when I saw him.
Mr. BELIN. All right.
Mr. SCOGGINS. And he was--he stopped there.
Mr. BELIN. Let me ask you this now. When you first saw this man, had the police car stopped or not?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he stopped. When I saw he stopped, then I looked to see why he was stopping, you see, and I saw this man with a light-colored jacket on.
Mr. BELIN. Now, you saw a man with a light-colored jacket. With relation to the police car, was the man east of the police car, west of the police car, or kind of.
Mr. SCOGGINS. Just a little east is the best I can remember.
Mr. BELIN. He was a little bit east of the police car?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he was just a little bit forward. The police car headed east and he was a little bit, maybe not more than the front end of the car.
Mr. BELIN. You thought the man was at the front end of the car?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; approximately.
Mr. BELIN. But by that you mean the front wheel or front bumper area?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes.
Mr. BELIN. Was he on the sidewalk?
Mr. SCOGGINS. At the time I saw him; yes.
Mr. BELIN. When you first saw him, I believe you said you saw the man's face, or did you not say that?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I couldn't see the man's face from there. I saw the face when he passed the cab.
Mr. BELIN. What led you to believe that he was walking west?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Well, he was facing west.
Mr. BELIN. You mean he was facing west when you first saw him?
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; he was kind of facing that way.
Mr. BELIN. Was it due west the way the sidewalk was, or was it--
Mr. SCOGGINS. Yes; west in relation to the sidewalk.
Mr. BELIN. All right Then what did you see the man do?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I saw him turn facing the street, and then I didn't see him any more after that because he went behind some shrubbery.
Mr. BELIN. Did you see the police officer do anything?
Mr. SCOGGINS. I saw him get out of the police car.
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January 28, 2012, 11:27:47 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 8758
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Markham notices this Oswald like man walking East not before he had just reached the East curb of Patton.
This indicates that Markham saw this man just after he had turned around (after seeing Tippit coming) to walk east after having walked West.
Mr. BALL. So you were walking south toward Jefferson?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You think it was a little after 1?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I wouldn't be afraid to bet it wasn't 6 or 7 minutes after 1.
Mr. BALL. You know what time you usually get your bus, don't you?
Mrs. MARKHAM. 1:15.
Mr. BALL. So it was before 1:15?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it was.
Mr. BALL. When you came to the corner of Patton and 10th Street--first of all, what side of the street were you walking on?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Now you have got me mixed up on all my streets. I was on the opposite of where this man was.
Mr. BALL. Well, you were walking along the street--
Mrs. MARKHAM. On the street.
Mr. BALL. On Patton, you were going toward Jefferson?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. And you were on the right- or left-hand side of the street as you were walking south?
Mrs. MARKHAM. That would be on the left.
Mr. BALL. Your right.
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, it would be right.
Mr. BALL. Right-hand side, wouldn't it? When you came to the corner did you have to stop before you crossed 10th Street?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, I did.
Mr. BALL. Why?
Mrs. MARKHAM. On account the traffic was coming.
Mr. BALL. And you stopped there on the corner?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That would be the northwest corner, wouldn't it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Northwest corner.
Mr. BALL. Is that right?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I believe it is. I believe it is the northwest corner.
Mr. BALL. Did you see any man walking at that time?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes; I seen this man on the opposite side, across the street from me. He was almost across Patton Street.
Mr. BALL. Almost across Patton?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Walking in what direction?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I guess this would be south.
Mr. BALL. Along 10th, east? Was it along 10th?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Walking away from you, wasn't he?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was walking up 10th, away from me.
Mr. BALL. To your left?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, he was on the opposite side of the street to me like that.
Mr. BALL. Had he reached the curb yet?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Almost ready to get up on the curb.
Mr. BALL. What did you notice then?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Well, I noticed a police car coming.
Mr. BALL. Where was the police car when you first saw it?
Mrs. MARKHAM. He was driving real slow, almost up to this man, well, say this man, and he kept, this man kept walking, you know, and the police car going real slow now, real slow, and they just kept coming into the curb, and finally they got way up there a little ways up, well, it stopped.
Mr. BALL. The police car stopped?
Mrs. MARKHAM. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What about the man? Was he still walking?
Mrs. MARKHAM. The man stopped.
Mr. BALL. Then what did you see the man do?
Mrs. MARKHAM. I saw the man come over to the car very slow, leaned and put his arms just like this, he leaned over in this window and looked in this window.
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January 28, 2012, 11:29:27 PM
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Posts: 8758
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Markham notices this Oswald like man walking East not before he had just reached the East curb of Patton.
If the Oswald like man had been walking East across Patton, why had not Markham seen him doing so, as she was paused at the NW corner waiting for traffic to pass? But, Markham only sees him as he is about to step onto the East curb of Patton. This casts doubt on Markham's account because FOUR other witnesses saw the Oswald like man walking West on 10th just before he shot Tippit. If this killer was walking West, then he was not Oswald because Oswald did not have time to reach the scene had he approached from it the East. 
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« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 11:30:06 PM by Miles Scull »
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January 29, 2012, 05:50:34 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 1085
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Vestan If you don't hold much value in eye-witness testimony and their recollections, then obviously your opinion on whoever gave times is pretty irrelevent don't you think???  John I was commenting on the people and their blatant bias that discuss eye-witness testimony, so regardless of whether or not I feel eye-witness testimony is reliable or not, that wasn’t the point of my post. Regardless of my views on the relevancy of eye witness testimony, obvious (to most) is that there are eye witnesses that are more relevant than others. In this case where a time is trying to be established, obviously those that checked a timepiece to acquire a time vs. those that just guestimated would be more relevant. I was clearly being sarcastic, since Bob knows that the only time that cannot be disputed is the Police Radio which was regularly syncronised to an atomic world clock and that clearly says that the call Bowley made occurred at 1:16PM. There have been a number of discrepancies raised over the radio call. As I understand it, it was Benavides who waited for a few minutes after the shooting before leaving his car to radio in, and when he couldn’t operate the radio Bowley took over. Could Bowley have gotten to the scene, checked his watch, waited for Benavides to appear and make his attempted call and could it have taken 6 minutes from Bowley looking at his watch to this radio transmission being sent? According to most people that could be a possibility. According to you it’s probably ridiculous. Considering there doesn’t seem to be a statement taken by the WC as to what exactly took place with regards to Bowley, I guess it’s just one of those things most of us will never be sure of as to what exactly took place. Bowley affidavit: I stopped my car and got out to go to the scene. I looked at my watch and it said 1:10 pm. Several people were at the scene. When I got there the first thing I did was try to help the officer.6 minutes from getting to the scene to making the call? Is that stretching credibility really? He appeared beyond help to me. A man was trying to use the radio in the squad car but stated he didn't know how to operate it. I know how and took the radio from him.This can lead us in 2 directions, Bowley came on the scene and waited 6 minutes to use the Police Radio, while Tippit was lying in desperate need of help, or his 1963 timepiece was wrong, i will let you figure out what really happened. I’ve just explained to you I find eye witness testimony extremely unreliable. I’m not here to figure it out. I wouldn’t even attempt to try when the entire scenario is based on unreliable eye witness testimony. I am merely pointing out that if you hold any value in what eye witness tetimony actually is worth with regards to establishing anything relevant, then naturally in a scenario where time is trying to be established, the witnesses who had checked timepieces would be more relevant than those that didn’t, the exact opposite of what you propose. Mrs Markham had no clock or anything else to measure the time and made an estimate much like my 1:30 timewitnesses. I’m almost positive she been quoted as saying that she looked at the clock before she left to catch her bus. As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or LoginWhatever you may think the, we as humans do one thing exceedingly well and that is recognise faces and these eyewitnesses positively identified Lee Harvey Oswald holding a revolver, fleeing from the Tippit crime scene. And your first witness in the list fails. This is a prime example of people seeing things in the testimony that just isn’t there. These people are just ordinary folk that caught fleeting glimpses of a situation they probably didn’t even recognise as being of vital importance, bar those that actually witnessed the murder. It is a prime example of how all the witnesses who enforce your version are all blessed with photographic memories and accurate internal clocks, and everyone who goes against your version is wrong, mistaken etc. You can go around with cherry picking which witnesses are credible or not. But as highlighted in this exchange, and your ‘all Parkland witnesses were mistaken, lying etc.’ post, you’re obviously not a very good judge for when it comes to sizing up what constitutes as relevant information, or more importantly, just what a credible witness is. Cheers.
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January 30, 2012, 01:51:47 AM
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Posts: 448
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Joe
What Markham says when she's a hundred years old is going to make much sense?
In 1964 Markham got some clothes colours wrong, so what, she also said he had long pants, a jacket and was a little man and compared to huge Tippit, she was right!
Also Oswald would have a ruddy complexion after walking a quick mile.
JohnM
Ha ha ha, nice. NO SALE. The slugs didn't even match up with the casings in this shooting.
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January 30, 2012, 02:24:02 AM
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Posts: 9051
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Ha ha ha, nice. NO SALE. The slugs didn't even match up with the casings in this shooting.
Oh, come on, Joe. I believe five shots were fired at Tippit, by Oswald. Three Winchester bullets were recovered from Tippit's body but only two Winchester shells were found. The likely fifth shell that was never found would be the missing Winchester shell. One Remington bullet was removed from Tippit's body but two Remington shells were found at the scene. The likely fifth bullet that was never found (a missed shot gone astray) would be the missing Remington bullet. Put more simply, Oswald fired off FIVE shots at Tippit, not four. One of these shots missed. The bullet from the missed shot was never found. This missing bullet was the second Remington bullet. This explains why two Remington shells were found at the scene. Only two Winchester shells were found at the scene, but three Winchester bullets were recovered from Tippit's body. This is because Oswald fired three Winchester bullets at Tippit. The third Winchester shell was never recovered from the Tippit scene. Also, when Oswald was arrested inside the Texas Theater, the same combination of Remington bullets along with Winchester bullets were found on him. Coincidence? Hardly. The HSCA called on top experts to help it evaluate the ballistics evidence. As for the discrepancy mentioned above, they offered two possible explanations: #1: One Western Cartridge case was not recovered or is missing, and one Remington-Peters lead bullet missed Officer Tippit and also was not recovered. #2: One Western Cartridge case was not recovered or is missing, and one fired Remington-Peters cartridge case was in the revolver prior to the Tippit shooting.
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« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 07:45:22 AM by Bill Brown »
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February 27, 2012, 07:33:02 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 9051
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From Dale Myers' book on the Tippit shooting... With Malice: "In 1996, eyewitness Barbara J. Davis mentioned that she found a shell like those she and Virginia recovered the day of the murder among the possessions of her father-in-law, Louis Davis." According to Barbara's sister-in-law Virginia Davis, Louis Davis found the shell on the day of the shooting and kept it as a keepsake. Perhaps a fifth shell found, which would support a fifth shot fired by Oswald and explain the discrepancy/mismatch of the shells and bullets, that I have mentioned throughout this thread (below)? Three Winchester bullets were recovered from Tippit's body but only two Winchester shells were found. The likely fifth shell that was never found would be the missing Winchester shell.
One Remington bullet was removed from Tippit's body but two Remington shells were found at the scene. The likely fifth bullet that was never found (a missed shot gone astray) would be the missing Remington bullet.
Put more simply, Oswald fired off FIVE shots at Tippit, not four. One of these shots missed. The bullet from the missed shot was never found. This missing bullet was the second Remington bullet. This explains why two Remington shells were found at the scene. Only two Winchester shells were found at the scene, but three Winchester bullets were recovered from Tippit's body. This is because Oswald fired three Winchester bullets at Tippit. The third Winchester shell was never recovered from the Tippit scene.
Also, when Oswald was arrested inside the Texas Theater, the same combination of Remington bullets along with Winchester bullets were found on him. Coincidence? Hardly.
The HSCA called on top experts to help it evaluate the ballistics evidence. As for the discrepancy mentioned above, they offered two possible explanations:
#1: One Western Cartridge case was not recovered or is missing, and one Remington-Peters lead bullet missed Officer Tippit and also was not recovered.
#2: One Western Cartridge case was not recovered or is missing, and one fired Remington-Peters cartridge case was in the revolver prior to the Tippit shooting.
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« Last Edit: February 27, 2012, 07:38:49 AM by Bill Brown »
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February 27, 2012, 08:04:48 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 1627
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The likely fifth bullet that was never found (a missed shot gone astray)
Apart from the fact that your nice little story is nothing more but a collection of assumptions (once again). You are claiming here that your EXPERT shot LHO who could shoot a fly of a cow´s behind at 100 yards, who delivers 3 perfect shots at the moving POTUS with a piece of sh!t rifle with a cheap scope set all wrong misses Tippit at point blank range ... Damn Bill your stories do get better and better, maybe write a book..... Vinnie boy also made a bundle of his 10000000000 pages of crap 
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"Good Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions." Jerry Falwell " I'm not  " T Winky
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