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May 24, 2012, 03:48:04 AM
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Tippit Murder...Shells...Automatic?  (Read 5838 times)

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This topic seems to be getting lost in other threads.  So I figured I'd just begin this thread so the topic would have a place to call home, so to speak.

Barbara Davis testified to the Warren Commission, namely Joseph Ball.  Mrs. Davis lived at the corner of Tenth and Patton.  It was her front lawn that the suspect crossed, as he fled the scene after shooting Officer Tippit.  She testified that she was in bed when she heard two shots.  She went to her front door and saw a man crossing her lawn and emptying the revolver of spent shells:

"It (the gun) was open and he had his hands cocked like he was emptying it" - Barbara Davis

Mrs. Davis said that the man had the gun open and was "shaking it".  She also testified that she found one shell under the window, in the grass, beside her house.  She added that her sister-in-law, Virginia Davis, found another shell later in the day, by Virginia's door (the two women lived in the same building, but different doors for entry).

So, based on Barbara Davis' very reliable Warren Commission testimony regarding this incident, we know that two shells were found in the Davis yard, very close to the house, which is exactly the path taken by the fleeing suspect.  We also know that the suspect was shaking the gun while it was open, most likely in an attempt to empty the weapon of the spent shells, while he was crossing through Barbara Davis' yard.

Barbara Davis and Virginia Davis both picked Oswald out of a lineup on Friday evening, the day of the Tippit murder, as the man that they had seen crossing their yard and shaking the weapon as if to remove the spent shells from it.

Domingo Benavides was driving his pick-up truck on Tenth Street, heading directly towards Tippit's stopped patrol car.  He saw Oswald standing on the passenger side of the car.  He saw Tippit standing on the driver's side of the car, as he had just gotten out of the car.  Benavides heard one shot, then ducked down and heard two more shots.  He looked back up in time to see Tippit fall to the ground.

Benavides also saw Oswald throw two of the shells to the ground.  Then, Benavides watched as Oswald fled the scene by way of the front yard of the house on the corner (the Davis house).  Benavides described seeing Oswald either empty more shells from the weapon or insert new bullets (he wasn't sure), as Oswald fled across the Davis yard.  This testimony by Benavides corroborates Barbara Davis' version of events, as well, as far as seeing the suspect fiddle with the weapon as he fled across the yard.

Benavides said that he saw Oswald throw one shell into a bush and the other one beside the bush.  By the way, Benavides also described Oswald as wearing a light beige jacket (the same color as the jacket later found and belonging to Oswald).

Benavides then describes how he "walked directly" to the shells that he witnessed the suspect throw away.  He picked them up with a stick and placed them in an empty cigarette package.  His Warren Commission testimony clearly described finding two of the shells.

To sum it up, Benavides immediately found two shells.  These are the two shells that Poe had in the cigarette wrapper.  Barbara Davis found one shell a couple hours after the shooting.  Virginia Davis found one shell about four hours after the shooting.  All four of these shells were found in and around the Davis yard.  The Davis yard was nowhere near where one would expect to find shells if they were automatically ejected from the weapon, as the killer had it in his hand while firing at Tippit from a location very near the patrol car.

If fired from an automatic weapon, how did the shells get to the yard of the Davis house, which was located roughly 75 to 90 feet away from where the killer was standing, as he fired the shots that murdered Tippit?

Multiple witnesses saw Oswald either shake the weapon to get the shells out or throw shells to the ground, as he fled across the Davis yard.

This was not an automatic weapon and these were not automatic shells.

Can any CT who believes that the shells were auto, logically answer my above question?


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« Last Edit: September 25, 2011, 08:18:00 AM by Bill Brown »

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"The TRUTH doesn't require anyone's belief." - Dale Myers

"The human mind craves a mystery more than it loves the truth." - Dan Rather

"Reason does not always appeal to unreasonable men." - John F. Kennedy

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Another quality contribution from bullet boy.

Why don't you go read Benavide's testimony before making anymore stupid posts.


Why don't you show me a witness who claims the murderer picked up empty casings, before making any more stupid remarks about automatic pistols?

Why do you repeatedly make claims about firearms related material you know nothing about?



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Marsh can not even comprehend a simple time stamp.  How will he ever comprehend the evidence?

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Why don't you show me a witness who claims the murderer picked up empty casings, before making any more stupid remarks about automatic pistols?

Why do you repeatedly make claims about firearms related material you know nothing about?

Nice smoke screen

You're making stuff up again.

One question.

Quote from: Mike Williams on Today at 06:17:20 PM
"You mean the ones that picked him from a line up?"

-----------------------------------

Where's the proof Benavides picked Oswald or anybody else out of a line-up?

Thought so.



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Too often we... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.
John F. Kennedy

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Callaway said he saw Tippit's killer putting a clip into the handle or butt of his hand gun as he ran down Patton.


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Callaway said he saw Tippit's killer putting a clip into the handle or butt of his hand gun as he ran down Patton.

cite please?


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Excellent post Bill.   thumbs1xx

Thanks, John.  I appreciate that.


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Interesting, neither the Davis's or Benavides was ask during their testimony to identify the shells they found.

That aside, the witnesses you mentioned did describe what the suspect was wearing.

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November 22, 1963

Mr. J. E. Curry
Chief of Police

Sir:

On November 22, 1963 at approximately 1:18 PM, while working squad
105, Officers Joe M. Poe #1175 and L.E. Jez #1479 were working
crowd control at the scene of the murder of President Kennedy,
Elm and Houston Streets. The officers heard a police officer was
involved in a shooting at 400 E. 10th.

-snip-

We were met by a white female who identified herself as Helen
Marsalle, 328 E. 9th Street, who stated she witnessed the shooting
of the officer. When she went to his aid the suspect threatened
to kill her and she ran. She identified the subject as a white
male about 25 years old, 5'10", slender build, bushy hair, wearing
a brown jacket.


-snip-

-----------------------------

TESTIMONY OF MRS. CHARLIE VIRGINIA DAVIS

Mr. BALL. Did he have a coat on when you saw him?
Mrs. DAVIS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What color coat?
Mrs. DAVIS. A dark coat.

---------------------------------

TESTIMONY OF MRS. BARBARA JEANETTE DAVIS

Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what color his trousers were?
Mrs. DAVIS. [c]I think they were black. Brown jacket and trousers.

--------------------------------

Testimony Of Domingo Benavides

Mr. BENAVIDES - I would say he was about your size, and he had a light-beige jacket, and was lightweight.

---------------------------------------------------------

Jim garrisson had an interesing take on this.

"On The Trail Of The Assassins"
by Jim Garrisson.

"...The bullets found in Officer Tippit's body and the cartridges found
at the scene of his murder yielded further evidence of the frameup. The
Dallas coroner had conducted an autopsy on Tippit's body and had
removed four bullets from it. Three of them, it turned out, were
copper-coated and had been manufactured by the Winchester Western
company. The fourth, however, was a lead bullet made by the
Remington-Peters company

This was awfully strange, I thought, because bullets were never sold
in mixed lots. Gun users bought either a box of all Winchesters or one
of all Remingtons, but not some of each. The discovery of two different
makes of bullets in Tippit's body indicated to me and would indicate
to most experienced police officers a likelihood that two different
gunmen did the shooting. This was consistent with the eyewitness
testimony of Acquilla Clemons and Mr. and Mrs. Wright.

When a homicide occurs, it is standard operating procedure for the
police homicide division to send off the bullets and cartridges to the
F.B.I. Iaboratory in Washington, D.C. for study and possible identi-
fication of the gun that fired them. In this case, the Dallas homicide
unit, understandably shy about advertising the coroner's discovery,
sent only one bullet to the F.B.I. Iab, informing the Bureau that this
was the only bullet found in Tippit's body.

To everyone's surprise, the Bureau lab found that the bullet did not
match Oswald's revolver. When it discovered this oddity, the Warren
Commission was inspired to look for other bullets that might match
up better. Although the Commission never received a copy of Tippit's
autopsy report, somehow it found out that four bullets rather than
merely one had been found in Tippit's body. The ordinarily incu-
rious Commission asked the F.B.I. to inquire about the three missing
bullets, and they were found after four months gathering dust in
the files of the Dallas homicide division.

These bullets were sent to the F.B.I. Iab. But Special Agent Court-
landt Cunningham, the ballistics expert from the lab, testified before
the Commission that the lab was unable to conclude that any of the
four bullets found in Tippit's body had been fired by the revolver taken
from Lee Oswald..."




So you do not have an answer for my question, Gary?


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To date, Ian, Gary and Miles have responded to this thread without answering the question.  Why have they not answered the question?  Why ignore it?

If fired from an automatic weapon, how did the shells get to the yard of the Davis house, which was located roughly 75 to 90 feet away from where the killer was standing, as he fired the shots that murdered Tippit?


-------------------------

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So you do not have an answer for my question, Gary?

You're playin a little game here Bill.

The Tippit murder ballistics have been explained to you ad nauseam.

You know the slugs taken from Tippit's body don't match the revolver the empty hulls can be matched with.

You also know Poe marked those hulls, at least he testified he believed he did, and he couldn't find that mark on the hulls in evidence.

You know Officer Hill radio'd in that "the shells at the scene indicate the suspect is armed with a automatic rather than a pistol" after being shown 2 of the emptys by Officer Poe.

You also know there were two different brands of bullets, slugs and empty hulls, found.

I posted an excerpt from Jim Garrisson, he was a experienced District Attorney who knew a thing or two about evidence, that gives a possible explanation and you choose to shrug it off as silly.

How germane is your question and does it address any of the issues associated?

Myself, I think you're question is completly irrelevant.


"On The Trail Of The Assassins"
by Jim Garrisson.

"...The bullets found in Officer Tippit's body and the cartridges found
at the scene of his murder yielded further evidence of the frameup. The
Dallas coroner had conducted an autopsy on Tippit's body and had
removed four bullets from it. Three of them, it turned out, were
copper-coated and had been manufactured by the Winchester Western
company. The fourth, however, was a lead bullet made by the
Remington-Peters company

This was awfully strange, I thought, because bullets were never sold
in mixed lots. Gun users bought either a box of all Winchesters or one
of all Remingtons, but not some of each. The discovery of two different
makes of bullets in Tippit's body indicated to me and would indicate
to most experienced police officers a likelihood that two different
gunmen did the shooting. This was consistent with the eyewitness
testimony of Acquilla Clemons and Mr. and Mrs. Wright.

When a homicide occurs, it is standard operating procedure for the
police homicide division to send off the bullets and cartridges to the
F.B.I. Iaboratory in Washington, D.C. for study and possible identi-
fication of the gun that fired them. In this case, the Dallas homicide
unit, understandably shy about advertising the coroner's discovery,
sent only one bullet to the F.B.I. Iab, informing the Bureau that this
was the only bullet found in Tippit's body.

To everyone's surprise, the Bureau lab found that the bullet did not
match Oswald's revolver. When it discovered this oddity, the Warren
Commission was inspired to look for other bullets that might match
up better. Although the Commission never received a copy of Tippit's
autopsy report, somehow it found out that four bullets rather than
merely one had been found in Tippit's body. The ordinarily incu-
rious Commission asked the F.B.I. to inquire about the three missing
bullets, and they were found after four months gathering dust in
the files of the Dallas homicide division.

These bullets were sent to the F.B.I. Iab. But Special Agent Court-
landt Cunningham, the ballistics expert from the lab, testified before
the Commission that the lab was unable to conclude that any of the
four bullets found in Tippit's body had been fired by the revolver taken
from Lee Oswald..."


-------------------------

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You're playin a little game here Bill.

The Tippit murder ballistics have been explained to you ad nauseam.

You know the slugs taken from Tippit's body don't match the revolver the empty hulls can be matched with.

You also know Poe marked those hulls, at least he testified he believed he did, and he couldn't find that mark on the hulls in evidence.

You know Officer Hill radio'd in that "the shells at the scene indicate the suspect is armed with a automatic rather than a pistol" after being shown 2 of the emptys by Officer Poe.

You also know there were two different brands of bullets, slugs and empty hulls, found.

I posted an excerpt from Jim Garrisson, he was a experienced District Attorney who knew a thing or two about evidence, that gives a possible explanation and you choose to shrug it off as silly.

How germane is your question and does it address any of the issues associated?

Myself, I think you're question is completly irrelevant.


"On The Trail Of The Assassins"
by Jim Garrisson.

"...The bullets found in Officer Tippit's body and the cartridges found
at the scene of his murder yielded further evidence of the frameup. The
Dallas coroner had conducted an autopsy on Tippit's body and had
removed four bullets from it. Three of them, it turned out, were
copper-coated and had been manufactured by the Winchester Western
company. The fourth, however, was a lead bullet made by the
Remington-Peters company

This was awfully strange, I thought, because bullets were never sold
in mixed lots. Gun users bought either a box of all Winchesters or one
of all Remingtons, but not some of each. The discovery of two different
makes of bullets in Tippit's body indicated to me and would indicate
to most experienced police officers a likelihood that two different
gunmen did the shooting. This was consistent with the eyewitness
testimony of Acquilla Clemons and Mr. and Mrs. Wright.

When a homicide occurs, it is standard operating procedure for the
police homicide division to send off the bullets and cartridges to the
F.B.I. Iaboratory in Washington, D.C. for study and possible identi-
fication of the gun that fired them. In this case, the Dallas homicide
unit, understandably shy about advertising the coroner's discovery,
sent only one bullet to the F.B.I. Iab, informing the Bureau that this
was the only bullet found in Tippit's body.

To everyone's surprise, the Bureau lab found that the bullet did not
match Oswald's revolver. When it discovered this oddity, the Warren
Commission was inspired to look for other bullets that might match
up better. Although the Commission never received a copy of Tippit's
autopsy report, somehow it found out that four bullets rather than
merely one had been found in Tippit's body. The ordinarily incu-
rious Commission asked the F.B.I. to inquire about the three missing
bullets, and they were found after four months gathering dust in
the files of the Dallas homicide division.

These bullets were sent to the F.B.I. Iab. But Special Agent Court-
landt Cunningham, the ballistics expert from the lab, testified before
the Commission that the lab was unable to conclude that any of the
four bullets found in Tippit's body had been fired by the revolver taken
from Lee Oswald..."


Quote
You know the slugs taken from Tippit's body don't match the revolver the empty hulls can be matched with.

I do not know that.  Neither do you.  An inconclusive result is NOT the same as a negative result.  Why would you imply otherwise?

Quote
You also know there were two different brands of bullets, slugs and empty hulls, found.


Three Winchester bullets were recovered from Tippit's body but only two Winchester shells were found.  The likely fifth shell that was never found would be the missing Winchester shell.

One Remington bullet was removed from Tippit's body but two Remington shells were found at the scene.  The likely fifth bullet that was never found (a missed shot gone astray) would be the missing Remington bullet.

Put more simply, Oswald may have fired off FIVE shots at Tippit, not four.  Ted Callaway testified that he heard five shots.  One of these shots missed.  The bullet from the missed shot was never found.  This missing bullet was the second Remington bullet.  This explains why two Remington shells were found at the scene.  Only two Winchester shells were found at the scene, but three Winchester bullets were recovered from Tippit's body.  This is because Oswald fired three Winchester bullets at Tippit.  The third Winchester shell was never recovered from the Tippit scene.

Also, when Oswald was arrested inside the Texas Theater, the same combination of Remington bullets along with Winchester bullets were found on him.  Coincidence?  Hardly.


The HSCA called on top experts to help it evaluate the ballistics evidence.  As for the discrepancy mentioned above, they offered two possible explanations:

#1:  One Western Cartridge case was not recovered or is missing, and one Remington-Peters lead bullet missed Officer Tippit and also was not recovered.

#2:  One Western Cartridge case was not recovered or is missing, and one fired Remington-Peters cartridge case was in the revolver prior to the Tippit shooting.


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« Last Edit: September 26, 2011, 07:28:10 PM by Bill Brown »

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"I do not know that.  Neither do you.  An inconclusive result is NOT the same as a negative result.  Why would you imply otherwise?"


Three Winchester bullets were recovered from Tippit's body but only two Winchester shells were found.  The likely fifth shell that was never found would be the missing Winchester shell.

One Remington bullet was removed from Tippit's body but two Remington shells were found at the scene.  The likely fifth bullet that was never found (a missed shot gone astray) would be the missing Remington bullet.


Put more simply, Oswald may have fired off FIVE shots at Tippit, not four.  Ted Callaway testified that he heard five shots.  One of these shots missed.  The bullet from the missed shot was never found.  This missing bullet was the second Remington bullet.  This explains why two Remington shells were found at the scene.  Only two Winchester shells were found at the scene, but three Winchester bullets were recovered from Tippit's body.  This is because Oswald fired three Winchester bullets at Tippit.  The third Winchester shell was never recovered from the Tippit scene.

Also, when Oswald was arrested inside the Texas Theater, the same combination of Remington bullets along with Winchester bullets were found on him.  Coincidence?  Hardly.


The HSCA called on top experts to help it evaluate the ballistics evidence.  As for the discrepancy mentioned above, they offered two possible explanations:

#1:  One Western Cartridge case was not recovered or is missing, and one Remington-Peters lead bullet missed Officer Tippit and also was not recovered.

#2:  One Western Cartridge case was not recovered or is missing, and one fired Remington-Peters cartridge case was in the revolver prior to the Tippit shooting.

"I do not know that.  Neither do you.  An inconclusive result is NOT the same as a negative result.  Why would you imply otherwise?"

Come on Bill, they didn't match them to the gun. The same could be said of any mangled .38 slug from the local shooting range.

--------------

"Three Winchester bullets were recovered from Tippit's body but only two Winchester shells were found.  The likely fifth shell that was never found would be the missing Winchester shell."

"One Remington bullet was removed from Tippit's body but two Remington shells were found at the scene.  The likely fifth bullet that was never found (a missed shot gone astray) would be the missing Remington bullet."


This is just silly. How many bullet theories does it take to make LHO look guilty. Add the LTBT (Lost Tippit Bullet Theory) to the SBT (Single Bullet Theory).

-----------------------

"Also, when Oswald was arrested inside the Texas Theater, the same combination of Remington bullets along with Winchester bullets were found on him.  Coincidence?  Hardly."

No, they weren't found when he was arrested in the Texas Theater.

Lets take a look.

LHO is arrested @ approximately 1:55pm.

He is searched @ 4:05pm and five live rounds of .38 calibre pistol shells are found in his left front pocket.

2+ hours to search a murder suspect who was arrested with a weapon in his possession?

What's wrong with this scenerio?

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-snip-

"At approximately 1:55pm Friday, November 22, 1963, I was in the vicinity

of the Texas Theater in the Oak Cliff section of Dallas, looking for the suspect

in the slaying of officer J.D. Tippit."

-snip-

"I joined the other officers in attempting to complete the arrest"

-snip-

"succeeded in subduing the suspect, and while the other officers held the suspect, Officer Ray Hawkins and I handcuffed the suspect."


-snip-

---------------------------

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-snip-

"At 4:05pm Sims, Boyd, and Det. M.C. Hall took Oswald down to the holdover in the jail

office for a show-up. Down in the hold over, Boyd searched Oswald and found

five live rounds of .38 calibre pistol shells in his left front pocket. Sims

found a bus transfer slip in Oswald's shirt pocket."

 
-snip-


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The CTs responding to this are the ones we expect, the ones who ignore the record and insist their CT views are backed by evidence. I love the statement about the suspect being armed with an automatic rather than a pistol, but I won't bother getting in to gun terminology. CTs assume all cops are expert witnesses (or nearly so) when it comes to firearms, without realizing that the terminology he used demonstrates a level of ignorance pretty much equal to their own.

And yes Bill, it is an excellent, to the point post.


-------------------------

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"you're the cop, you figure it out"
-Lee H. Oswald to Dallas Police detectives, weekend
of 11-22-63.

"Part of the reason why we avoided talking about this thing, because every time you say something, somebody misinterprets what you say."
-James. J. Humes, excerpt of ARRB statement, 2-13-96

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Come on Bill, they didn't match them to the gun. The same could be said of any mangled .38 slug from the local shooting range.


Yeah just any old bullet huh Gary?  Not quite, it would have to be the same caliber, the same type, the same twist to the rifling, the same direction of twist to the rifling, it would have had to have been fired from a weapon with a slightly over sized barrel.....  The bullets removed from Tippit had ALL these class characteristics, and so did the test bullets from Oswald's revolver.  In point of fact, Frazier and Nicol both examined these, and Nicol did find a match.  HE stated that one bullet removed from Tippit was from Oswlad's pistol to the exclusion of all other pistols in the world.

Of course you have made the claim that Nicol, an expert with over 20 years experience lied to the commission, or for the commission.
You make this ridiculous claim not even comprehending the ramifications for Nicol is such were to be true.

Quote
This is just silly. How many bullet theories does it take to make LHO look guilty. Add the LTBT (Lost Tippit Bullet Theory) to the SBT (Single Bullet Theory).

So hold on a minute here cowboy.  Are you now recanting your previous claims that Oswald was a very poor shot?  Are you now claiming that he would never have had a miss?
Quote
No, they weren't found when he was arrested in the Texas Theater.

Lets take a look.

LHO is arrested @ approximately 1:55pm.

He is searched @ 4:05pm and five live rounds of .38 calibre pistol shells are found in his left front pocket.

2+ hours to search a murder suspect who was arrested with a weapon in his possession?

What's wrong with this scenerio?

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Um.....Yeah bullets were found at the Texas Theater Gary.  They were found in the revolver after it was taken from Oswald. CE518 and CE145 are the bullets that were recovered from that revolver.

What were they?

Mr. EISENBERG. Mr. Cunningham, I hand you Commission Exhibits Nos. 145 and 518, which, for the record, consist of bullets, unfired bullets which were found in the revolver and the pocket of Lee Harvey Oswald following his arrest on November 22. I ask you whether you are familiar with the bullets in these exhibits.
You are now looking at which exhibit, Mr. Cunningham?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Commission Exhibit 518.
I have seen them before.
Mr. EISENBERG. Can you describe these bullets very briefly?
Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir. They are cartridges. There are four cartridges. Two are Western .38 Special with copper-coated lead bullets loaded into these cartridges. The other two are Remington-Peters .38 Special cartridges, which are loaded with lead bullets.

The exact same mix of ammunition used to kill Tippit.

So your claim that no rounds were found at the location of the Texas Theater is incorrect.

Mr. BELIN. Now I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit 143. Would you state if you know what this is?
Mr. HILL. This is a .38 caliber revolver, Smith & Wesson, with a 2" barrel that would contain six shells. It is an older gun that has been blue steeled, and has a worn wooden handle.
Mr. BELIN. Have you ever seen this gun before?
Mr. HILL. I am trying to see my mark on it to make sure, sir. I don't recall specifically where I marked it, but I did mark it, if this is the one. I don't remember where I did mark it, now.
Here it is, Hill right here, right in this crack.

Hill has his mark on the revolver, it is unquestionably the one from Oswald.

Mr. BELIN. All right, then, would you tell us what happened? What was said and what was done?
Mr. HILL. Then I broke the gun open to see how many shells it contained and how many live rounds it had in it.
Mr. BELIN. How many did you find?
Mr. HILL. There were six in the chambers of the gun. One of them had an indention in the primer that appeared to be caused by the hammer. There were five others. All of the shells at this time had indentions.
All of the shells appeared to have at one time or another scotch tape on them because in an area that would have been the width of a half inch strip of scotch tape, there was kind of a bit of lint and residue on the jacket of the shell.
Mr. BELIN. Did you ever mark those?
Mr. HILL. I can say that I marked all six of them.
Mr. BELIN. I am first going to hand you what has been marked as Q-178 on the lead portion. It is 178 or 170. It appears to be Q-178, with the initials JH running together and CK, and then another initial R, with a dash behind it.
Do you see any identification mark of yours on there at all?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; on the side of the jacket of the bullet there is the name scratched H-i-l-l, and also the initials BC. I scratched the H-i-l-1 on this shell, and Bob Carroll scratched the BC on it in my presence in the personnel office of the police department on the third floor.
Mr. BELIN. What is that?
Mr. HILL. This is one of the shells which is a .38 special-shell that was removed from the suspect's weapon, removed from the weapon that was taken from the suspect at the time of his arrest.
Mr. BELIN. When was it removed?
Mr. HILL. They were not taken out of the gun, as I recall, sir, until we arrived at the station.
Mr. BELIN. Who took it out of the gun?
Mr. HILL. I took it out of the gun.
Mr. BELIN. Did you keep it in your possession until you put on your initials?
Mr. HILL. All six shells remained in my possession until I initialed them.


Hill removed them himself and they were in his possession until they were marked.

These bullets, and revolver are Oswald's there is no doubt.






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