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 September 09, 2011, 04:58:33 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 2355
Germany
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Jim Murray and William Allen shot a series of photos near the manhole cover at the south side of Elm street minutes after the shots were fired. I think you are all fimiliar with the incident. Here some of the Murray / Allen pix:   i have read in another thread about the Hartman's ("Bullet or Magic Dirt ?"): As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or LoginLink (Post from Mark Oakes to Don Roberdeau on a Lancer thread pertaining to The Hartman's): As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or LoginThey were there around 12:33 to 12:35(My guess) as shown In the Cancellare photos in Coverup or Richard Trask's book "Pictures of the Pain" Can somebody point out the Hartman's in Cancellare for me ? Is this the Cancellare picture in question ?  similar position photo by Murray: 
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« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 05:15:01 PM by Gerry_Dark »
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"ich bin ein Berliner" As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login"There's none so blind as those who will not see."
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September 09, 2011, 05:57:27 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 2355
Germany
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Hi Gerda
A few years ago on Lancer i had a thread " Furrows in the grass" where Bill Miller posted a frame from Mark Oats video showing Mrs Hartman.
and he marked the trajectory of the bullit strike in the grass.
The thread is still there but unfortunately all the images have been archived long ago
Interesting, Thank you Robin ! I will look for it. ETA: I found another thread at EF with the same title. Interesting is the observation that Foster appears to be pointing more to the western TSBD window than to the SN. Here are some photos i found at the "Portal to Texas History" homepage; in the JFK, Dallas Police Department Collection: As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login(composite)  Patrolman Foster called the CSI and they came and did their job, in the forground you can see what appears to be a Crime Scene Investigation kit.
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« Last Edit: September 09, 2011, 06:23:53 PM by Gerda Dunckel »
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September 15, 2011, 02:24:13 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 2633
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Don Roberdeau post
HARTMAN's Touch History; a Grass Raised Bullet Track & Curb Nick
Good Day All.... For those who have not viewed it yet, I was recently watching MARK OAKES on-camera interview of EDNA HARTMAN. (the OAKES video is copyrighted 1992)
I was struck by her solid credibility and several very interesting and important observations that EDNA has detailed for us....
Prior to the attack, the HARTMAN's had been attending a court trial and the judge had stopped the proceedings early because the judge was going to the Trade Mart for the luncheon with President KENNEDY (could this have been the same judge whose "County Courts" building second floor courtroom windows that GADDY, MOONEYHAM, and others watched and heard the attack from?). Apparently after the trial was stopped, the HARTMAN's went just down Main Street to get something to eat, and watch President KENNEDY drive by.
During the attack they each remembered hearing 2 or more shots from a couple blocks away while near "Mullendore's Cafeteria," located on the Record & Main Streets intersection northeast corner.
They immediately ran west to Houston Street where they first encountered a dazed red-haired woman wearing a rose-color dress who EDNA asked what had happened? The dazed woman told the HARTMAN's that JFK had just been shot. (this rose-color-dress woman may be visible in the WILLIS #5 photo slide)
They also were attracted to see a woman laying atop a boy on some grass (probably the NEWMAN's).
They then spoke with a DPD-uniformed policeman who was standing with a boy (EUINS?) who also confirmed the president had been shot
EDNA told OAKES that they
<QUOTE>
saw a policeman going up over the grassy knoll by the picket fence
<END QUOTE>
so they moved down into the north infield grass and ended up standing near the Elm Street south curb sewer. EDNA was looking down and around in the grass surrounding the cement apron of what EDNA called the "manhole sewer," and she was immediately attracted to notice a small hole opening in the nearby grass, where, around this hole opening, the grass was raised up noticeably around the hole opening, and a raised furrow track extended in a straight line from the hole opening.
EDNA said of the bullet track that they looked at, and, also, physically explored with their hands and fingers, that the bullet track was
<QUOTE>
a piece of dirt raised up like a ground mole would, but it didn't go down, it went in the--across the ground, under it, and I bent over and I traced it for several feet back, and a policeman appeared ((JOE FOSTER?)) and traced it with me, and I said
'What in the world is this? It's like a ground mole hole, but I've never seen one so long'
and he (the DPD policeman) said
'That's where a bullet went through'
and it traveled quite a ways back, but it did not come out of the ground. I said
'Well, it did not come out?'
and he said
'No. It's still in there'
and as we turned around to go back to the curb to see where it had come from--there was a nick there in the curb--and just then all the motorcycles came at one time underneath...underneath 183.
<END QUOTE>
The FBI did not take their statement until July 1964 (warrenatti CD1518). EDNA said the FBI acted like when the HARTMAN's went to the FBI to volunteer their detailed observations that their detailed observations were not important to the FBI nor the investigation, and it did not matter to the FBI whether the HARTMAN's made a statement or not.
EDNA said the FBI told them that the bullet track was caused by "pieces of bone from the skull of the president," but EDNA said "I told them I did not believe a bone could do all of that."
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September 15, 2011, 04:09:43 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 2355
Germany
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Thank you Robin  First thing that surprises me is that the grass furrow was several feet long a piece of dirt raised up like a ground mole would, but it didn't go down, it went in the--across the ground, under it, and I bent over and I traced it for several feet back,... and that Edna Hartman said that..."there was a nick there in the curb" and as we turned around to go back to the curb to see where it had come from--there was a nick there in the curb--and just then all the motorcycles came at one time underneath...underneath 183. also interesting that the FBI was not interested in Hartman's statements: EDNA said the FBI acted like when the HARTMAN's went to the FBI to volunteer their detailed observations that their detailed observations were not important to the FBI nor the investigation, and it did not matter to the FBI whether the HARTMAN's made a statement or not. If that furrow in the gras was caused by a piece of skull did the FBI recover it and where is that bonepiece ? Any official report known about a piece of skull found near the manhole cover except for the Harper fragment ? The Murray/Allen photos do not show an elongated furrow in the grass but just what looks like clods of dirt.
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« Last Edit: September 15, 2011, 04:12:40 PM by Gerda Dunckel »
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September 22, 2011, 04:39:48 AM
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Posts: 70
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Gerda here is another photo of the manhole cover, notice the concrete slab matches the curb next to it, I think the curbs where not changed. 
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« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 05:56:51 AM by James Smith »
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