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Witness Data and the Perils of Majority Rule  (Read 1737 times)
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Witness Data and the Perils of Majority Rule

Majority Rule is good for determining our government. Bad for determining if Evolution is true or false. Bad for determining the shot pattern at Dealey Plaza.

Witnesses are heavily influenced by what they think is going on. If they hear a loud sound, what will they think it is? If attending a large Fourth of July picnic, a firecracker. If watching a motorcycle race, a backfire. If invading Omaha Beach on D-Day, a gunshot. The same sound will be interpreted differently depending on what the witness thinks is happening.

What we perceive is influenced by what we believe. Look at the following picture:



Tell a group they are about to see a picture of a young woman and most will see a young woman. Tell them they are about to see an old woman and they will see an old woman.

How people interpret their senses is heavily influenced by what they believe is going on.

**********

Much is made of the witnesses hearing two shots right together at the end. But what does this mean?

Some witnesses reported that with the first shot or two, they thought it was just backfires or firecrackers. But it appears that even the people who report only hearing gunshots, must have thought at the time they were hearing something else. This is evident in the Zapruder film. Up until z312, most everyone is acting normally, clapping their hands and just looking at the motorcade. The only people who seem to be reacting like shots are being fired are the people in the limousine, the four standing Secret Service agents in the follow up car, Howard Brennan and possibly Rosemary Willis.

Clearly most people thought the first two shots were not gunshots. Why is that? Because they didn't sound like rifle shots but instead sounded like backfires or firecrackers? No. It was because people were not expecting to hear gunshots. They thought they were watching an ordinary motorcade. When they heard a gunshot, most of them dismissed it as a backfire or a firecracker and continued concentrating on their only one close up view of a President and the First Lady they expect to get in their lives. In the chaos that followed, some even forgot about the 'backfire' they heard earlier.

Before z312, there was a strong bias to interpret a loud noise as not being a rifle shot. This is pretty much undeniable.

But as the Zapruder film shows, after z312, based on what they saw, the head exploding, everyone who saw that, knew that gunshots had been fired. Mr. Altgens froze and did not immediately take another picture as he was planning to. Others dived to the ground. No one saw JFK's head explode and thought nothing out of the ordinary was happening.

Did this change the way people perceive things? Did this cause people to interpret any loud sound as a gunshot? This is certainly plausible.

None of the three shots only produced one sound, a sharp bang. All produced multiple sounds. But it was the z312 shot that produced the most sounds and sounds that were most distinct from the others.

* the separation of the 'Crack-Thump' was greatest with this shot for witnesses near the limousine, up to about an eighth of a second

* more people were near the bullet as it passed overhead for the z312 shot. For example, Charles Brehm had this bullet pass overhead while neither the z153 nor the z222 bullet passed over his head

* there was the loud sound of the bullet striking JFK's skull

* there was the loud sound of a bullet fragment striking and denting the chrome windshield frame

* there was the loud sound of a bullet fragment cracking the windshield.

The fragment that dented the chrome frame must have made a loud noise, audible to everyone in Dealey Plaza. Imagine how loud a noise you would have to make with one blow of a heavy hammer to make a dent in a chrome frame. A metal fragment, slamming into the chrome at 700 MPH, hard enough to even put a dent into it, is going to make some noise.

Below shows two pictures. The bottom picture shows CE349, the dent in the windshield frame:

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It was at z312, when JFK's head exploded, that people realized that shots were being fired. They were no longer inclined to interpret loud noises as backfires, or firecrackers or fragments striking the limousine. They were inclined to interpret loud noises as gunfire.

Before z312, people tended to interpret a loud noise as a backfire or a firecracker. They were disinclined to interpret it as a gunshot. After z312, the opposite was probably true. A loud 'Bang' or 'Crack' was likely to be interpreted as a gunshot.

What people think is going on can cause all kinds of distortions. How they interpret sounds. How they perceive the passage of time. Time might seem to pass more quickly, or more slowly, between z153 through z222 than z222 through z312, depending on whether they think this is a normal motorcade or a growing realization is starting to build that something out of the ordinary may be happening. Making it perilous to rely on 'Majority Rule' to determine what actually happened. That the gap between the first and second shot must have been greater than the gap between the second and the third. People will be influenced by what they think is going on. That is why so many heard the first two rifle shots as backfires or firecrackers.

**************************************************

Many witnesses report the shots being well spaced out, with at least two seconds between each shot. But many report the last two shots as being very close together.

Clearly, one of two things happened:

Possibility 1: There were two shots close together. Some were able to correctly distinguish the two shots. Others were not.

Possibility 2: There was only one shot at the end but it produced multiple sounds, causing some witnesses to mistakenly believe that two shots occurred almost together.

If Possibility 1 is true, it was quite a coincidence that two shots happened so close together. So close, that many witnesses heard them as one shot. Without strong evidence to the contrary, one should reject coincidences.

Possibility 2 requires no coincidence. There were no two shots that just happened to fired together. Just one shot that produced multiple noises that some witnesses interpreted as multiple shots.

**************************************************

What are the logical absurdities we get into if we use 'Majority Rules'?

If we go with 'Majority Rules' and use the Zapruder film, we could have to conclude that no shots were fired before z312. While JFK and Connally may act like they are wounded and may even believe they are wounded, clearly the vast majority of the people watching the motorcade do not think that shots have been fired. Therefore, up until z312, no shots have been fired. A strong preponderance of the witnesses, way over 75%, clearly do not think shots have been fired and having so many witnesses being wrong is just plain unthinkable.

If we go with 'Majority Rules' we should be logically consistent. 75% thought the last two shots were close together. Many of them very close. So we should believe there were two shots right around z312. But we should also believe there were no shots before z312 because clearly the vast majority of the witnesses show no reaction to any shots before then.


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Sounds completely plausible to me Joe.

I just have one question.

Quote
* the separation of the 'Crack-Thump' was greatest with this shot for witnesses near the limousine, up to about an eighth of a second

I do not know if I agree with this.

The bullet traveled at twice the speed of the sound.  The bullet hitting the head would have been heard BEFORE the muzzle blast.  The time between these for the limo occupants would have been very small I would think.

As opposed to say someone standing at the TSBD steps.  They would have heard the muzzle blast first, and the imapact second, as the impact hd to travel back to them from the limo, as opposed to the rifle being right over head.

Perhaps I am incorrect here, but this is the way I see it.


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Marsh can not even comprehend a simple time stamp.  How will he ever comprehend the evidence?

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Sounds completely plausible to me Joe.

I just have one question.

I do not know if I agree with this.

The bullet traveled at twice the speed of the sound.  The bullet hitting the head would have been heard BEFORE the muzzle blast.  The time between these for the limo occupants would have been very small I would think.

As opposed to say someone standing at the TSBD steps.  They would have heard the muzzle blast first, and the impact second, as the impact hd to travel back to them from the limo, as opposed to the rifle being right over head.

Perhaps I am incorrect here, but this is the way I see it.


I was only referring to the 'Crack' of the supersonic bullet and the 'Thump' of the muzzle blast. The bullet travels an average speed of 2000 fps. It would reach the head after 13 ms. The sonic muzzle blast, traveling at 1100 fps, would reach the limousine after 24 ms. About a time difference of 11 ms.

For the z222 shot at 190 feet, the times are 9 ms and 17 ms, with a time difference of 8 ms.

And for the shot at z153, the times are 6 ms and 11 ms with a time difference of 5 ms.

So the time difference is most distinct, for someone near the limousine, for the z312, between the 'Crack' and the 'Thump'.

For comparing the sound of the bullet hitting the skull, compared to the muzzle blast, for someone near the limousine, the time difference would also be 11 ms, same difference for hearing the 'Crack-Thump' interval.

So, for someone near the limousine

Crack - sound of the bullet
Thump - sound of the muzzle blast
Thud - sound of the bullet hitting the skull

the time difference, with the first sound listed first, are:

Crack-Thump - 11 ms
Crack-Thud - 0 ms
Thud-Thump - 11 ms

Or, since the 'Crack' and the 'Thud' happen at the same time:

(Crack/Thud)-Thump - 11 ms

*****

For someone near the steps of the TSBD, the sound of the muzzle blast would reach them 31 ms before the sound of the bullet hitting the skull, 13 ms for the bullet to reach the skull, 24 ms more for that sound to come back to the TSBD, compared to the 6 ms for the muzzle blast to reach the TSBD steps. In contrast, the same witness would hear the 'Crack' and the 'Thump' at the same time, assuming they are close enough, at 60 feet, to hear the 'Crack'.

For the TSBD steps witness:

Crack-Thump - 0 ms
Crack-Thud - 31 ms
Thump-Thud - 31 ms

Or, since the 'Crack' and the 'Thump' happen at the same time:

(Crack/Thump)-Thud - 31 ms

*****

So it depends on if one is comparing:

* the sound of the muzzle blast

with the:

* crack of the bullet
or with the impact with the skull,

and also where the witness is, which is very important.

*****

The basic rule of thumb is the 'Crack' always comes before the 'Thump' except after 'C' or when sounding like 'A'. Holy cow. If we are getting this confused just think how confused the witnesses were. Timing the Cracks and the Thuds and the Thumps makes it all too easy to get Stumped.


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« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 07:02:34 AM by Joe Elliott »

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Joe you are sliding down a slippery slope. You are contradicting all of those witnesses who heard 3 shots (circa 90%) not just the ones that stuff up your beloved Z160,Z223 & Z313 sequence. Keep going Joe and let me know if you have enough rope.


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« Last Edit: September 05, 2011, 08:56:47 AM by Paul Klein »

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Sounds completely plausible to me Joe.

I just have one question.

I do not know if I agree with this.

The bullet traveled at twice the speed of the sound.  The bullet hitting the head would have been heard BEFORE the muzzle blast.  The time between these for the limo occupants would have been very small I would think.

As opposed to say someone standing at the TSBD steps.  They would have heard the muzzle blast first, and the imapact second, as the impact hd to travel back to them from the limo, as opposed to the rifle being right over head.

Perhaps I am incorrect here, but this is the way I see it.

Heard by whom? The shock wave will not be heard if the person is outside the cone of the shock wave which depends on its velocity.
I seriously doubt that anyone near the TSBD would be able to hear the impact of the bullet. Except possibly the chrome topping. Those nearest the limo or in the limo could hear that.


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Joe you are sliding down a slippery slope. You are contradicting all of those witnesses who heard 3 shots (circa 90%) not just the ones that stuff up your beloved Z160,Z223 & Z313 sequence. Keep going Joe and let me know if you have enough rope.


I am sliding down a slippery slope?

Can you answer the following questions:

Question 1:

Does as many as 10% of the people, seen in the Zapruder film, watching the motorcade before z312, show signs that they think that shots are being fired?

Question 2:

Does it not seem that the majority of the people seen in the Zaprader film before z312 interpreted the shots they heard as being something else, like backfires or firecrackers?

Question 3:

Is it not plausible that after z312, any loud noise they heard, would be interpreted as gunshots, just as before z312, loud noises were interpreted as not being gunshots?

********************

I suspect that you will not answer these questions. The answers are too obvious and not the answers you would prefer.


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I was only referring to the 'Crack' of the supersonic bullet and the 'Thump' of the muzzle blast. The bullet travels an average speed of 2000 fps. It would reach the head after 13 ms. The sonic muzzle blast, traveling at 1100 fps, would reach the limousine after 24 ms. About a time difference of 11 ms.

For the z222 shot at 190 feet, the times are 9 ms and 17 ms, with a time difference of 8 ms.

And for the shot at z153, the times are 6 ms and 11 ms with a time difference of 5 ms.

So the time difference is most distinct, for someone near the limousine, for the z312, between the 'Crack' and the 'Thump'.

For comparing the sound of the bullet hitting the skull, compared to the muzzle blast, for someone near the limousine, the time difference would also be 11 ms, same difference for hearing the 'Crack-Thump' interval.

So, for someone near the limousine

Crack - sound of the bullet
Thump - sound of the muzzle blast
Thud - sound of the bullet hitting the skull

the time difference, with the first sound listed first, are:

Crack-Thump - 11 ms
Crack-Thud - 0 ms
Thud-Thump - 11 ms

Or, since the 'Crack' and the 'Thud' happen at the same time:

(Crack/Thud)-Thump - 11 ms

*****

For someone near the steps of the TSBD, the sound of the muzzle blast would reach them 31 ms before the sound of the bullet hitting the skull, 13 ms for the bullet to reach the skull, 24 ms more for that sound to come back to the TSBD, compared to the 6 ms for the muzzle blast to reach the TSBD steps. In contrast, the same witness would hear the 'Crack' and the 'Thump' at the same time, assuming they are close enough, at 60 feet, to hear the 'Crack'.

For the TSBD steps witness:

Crack-Thump - 0 ms
Crack-Thud - 31 ms
Thump-Thud - 31 ms

Or, since the 'Crack' and the 'Thump' happen at the same time:

(Crack/Thump)-Thud - 31 ms

*****

So it depends on if one is comparing:

* the sound of the muzzle blast

with the:

* crack of the bullet
or with the impact with the skull,

and also where the witness is, which is very important.

*****

The basic rule of thumb is the 'Crack' always comes before the 'Thump' except after 'C' or when sounding like 'A'. Holy cow. If we are getting this confused just think how confused the witnesses were. Timing the Cracks and the Thuds and the Thumps makes it all too easy to get Stumped.


Well, you are close, but why don't you use the actual values? You can calculate the average velocity for whichever shot you assume at a known distance.
And the speed of sound at that minute was 1124 fps.
You also have to remember where the person was standing. Some people would be outside the cone of the shock wave.
Witnesses at the TSBD were too far away to hear the shot hit the victim.


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Heard by whom? The shock wave will not be heard if the person is outside the cone of the shock wave which depends on its velocity.

I seriously doubt that anyone near the TSBD would be able to hear the impact of the bullet. Except possibly the chrome topping. Those nearest the limo or in the limo could hear that.


Possibly the chrome topping? Definitely the chrome topping.

If one were to dent the chrome topping with a heavy hammer blow, people 100 yards away would hear that. If one were to do the same with a high speed bullet fragment, they would hear that as well. It would make a pretty good 'Bang'.


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I am sliding down a slippery slope?

Can you answer the following questions:

Question 1:

Does as many as 10% of the people, seen in the Zapruder film, watching the motorcade before z312, show signs that they think that shots are being fired?

Question 2:

Does it not seem that the majority of the people seen in the Zaprader film before z312 interpreted the shots they heard as being something else, like backfires or firecrackers?

Question 3:

Is it not plausible that after z312, any loud noise they heard, would be interpreted as gunshots, just as before z312, loud noises were interpreted as not being gunshots?

********************

I suspect that you will not answer these questions. The answers are too obvious and not the answers you would prefer.

How many shots did they hear Joe? How many shots heard, weren't shots? So was there 2 shots only cause the last shot caused 2 to 3 similar sounds? Are you suggesting that the 90% that heard 3 shots didn't really hear 3 shots but really 2 + 1 noise? Wow! I thought this LN business was real simple. I gotta hand it to you guys. Too complicated for me to understand. I just thought they might have heard 3 actual shots.


-------------------------

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Heard by whom? The shock wave will not be heard if the person is outside the cone of the shock wave which depends on its velocity.
I seriously doubt that anyone near the TSBD would be able to hear the impact of the bullet. Except possibly the chrome topping. Those nearest the limo or in the limo could hear that.


 rofl rofl

Marsh you are to much.

Where do you get these silly notions?  DO you make things up as you go along?


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I was only referring to the 'Crack' of the supersonic bullet and the 'Thump' of the muzzle blast. The bullet travels an average speed of 2000 fps. It would reach the head after 13 ms. The sonic muzzle blast, traveling at 1100 fps, would reach the limousine after 24 ms. About a time difference of 11 ms.

For the z222 shot at 190 feet, the times are 9 ms and 17 ms, with a time difference of 8 ms.

And for the shot at z153, the times are 6 ms and 11 ms with a time difference of 5 ms.

So the time difference is most distinct, for someone near the limousine, for the z312, between the 'Crack' and the 'Thump'.

For comparing the sound of the bullet hitting the skull, compared to the muzzle blast, for someone near the limousine, the time difference would also be 11 ms, same difference for hearing the 'Crack-Thump' interval.

So, for someone near the limousine

Crack - sound of the bullet
Thump - sound of the muzzle blast
Thud - sound of the bullet hitting the skull

the time difference, with the first sound listed first, are:

Crack-Thump - 11 ms
Crack-Thud - 0 ms
Thud-Thump - 11 ms

Or, since the 'Crack' and the 'Thud' happen at the same time:

(Crack/Thud)-Thump - 11 ms

*****

For someone near the steps of the TSBD, the sound of the muzzle blast would reach them 31 ms before the sound of the bullet hitting the skull, 13 ms for the bullet to reach the skull, 24 ms more for that sound to come back to the TSBD, compared to the 6 ms for the muzzle blast to reach the TSBD steps. In contrast, the same witness would hear the 'Crack' and the 'Thump' at the same time, assuming they are close enough, at 60 feet, to hear the 'Crack'.

For the TSBD steps witness:

Crack-Thump - 0 ms
Crack-Thud - 31 ms
Thump-Thud - 31 ms

Or, since the 'Crack' and the 'Thump' happen at the same time:

(Crack/Thump)-Thud - 31 ms

*****

So it depends on if one is comparing:

* the sound of the muzzle blast

with the:

* crack of the bullet
or with the impact with the skull,

and also where the witness is, which is very important.

*****

The basic rule of thumb is the 'Crack' always comes before the 'Thump' except after 'C' or when sounding like 'A'. Holy cow. If we are getting this confused just think how confused the witnesses were. Timing the Cracks and the Thuds and the Thumps makes it all too easy to get Stumped.



Thanks Joe. 

That makes perfect sense, I assumed your thump was impact. not projectile.


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How many shots did they hear Joe? How many shots heard, weren't shots? So was there 2 shots only cause the last shot caused 2 to 3 similar sounds? Are you suggesting that the 90% that heard 3 shots didn't really hear 3 shots but really 2 + 1 noise? Wow! I thought this LN business was real simple. I gotta hand it to you guys. Too complicated for me to understand. I just thought they might have heard 3 actual shots.


I am suggesting that 75% of the witnesses can be mistaken. Clearly well over 75% of the witnesses were mistaken about what the two loud noises they heard were at z153 and z222. What is so fantastic about a large number being mistaken about the 'Bang' they heard when the fragment smashed into and dented the chrome windshield frame.

There is probably no simple story on what error the witnesses made. Different witnesses made different errors. Some dismissed the early shots as being backfires and in the ensuing chaos, forgot about them. Others may have mistaken the sound of the fragment striking chrome, or the bullet striking the skull, or the crack of the supersonic bullet, as the sound of a different gunshot. For others, time may get distorted as they begin to suspect something is not quite right. Other witnesses may incorporate what they heard from others or the media into what they remember. The number of ways witnesses made mistakes is equal to the number of witnesses.

We know this to be true because of the wild disagreement between what different witnesses remember.

Two witnesses may remember there being three shots, with the last two closer together. But the first may remember at least a two second separation between each shot while the other remembers the last two shots were right on top of each other.

Two witnesses may remember three shots with the last two right on top of each other. But the first may remember all the shots coming from the Grassy Knoll while the second remembers all the shots from the TSBD.

Witnesses make all sorts of errors and on some issues the majority can be mistaken. Like whether the first two shots were really shots. Had Oswald never fired the third shot, most witnesses never would have realized that shots had been fired until they heard about it from the media.


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