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May 23, 2012, 11:33:53 PM
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Tomlinson, Wright, Johnson and Rowley say CE399 NOT the bullet  (Read 5743 times)
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A WCR exhibit just sitting there ready to be used in the conclusion and summary of the report...

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Yet the conclusion is surprisingly NOT the same....
Why would the WCR L-I-E like that??                        walkietalkie2
and not tell us in the body of the report about the reallity of their exhibit CE399.....

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1. The shots which killed President Kennedy and wounded Governor
Connally were fired from the sixth floor window at the southeast
corner of the Texas School Book Depository. This determination
is based upon the following :
(a) Witnesses at the scene of the assassination saw a rifle being
fired from the sixth floor window of the Depository Building,
and some witnesses saw a rifle in the window immediately after
the shots were fired.
(b) The nearly whole bullet found on Governor Connally’s
stretcher at Parkland Memorial Hospital and the two bullet fragments
found in the front seat of the Presidential limousine were
fired from the 6.5millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano rifle found on
the sixth floor of the Depository Building to the exclusion of all
other weapons
.

EXPERT EXAMINATION OF RIFLE, CARTRIDGE CASES,
AND BULLET FRAGMENTS
On the sixth floor of the Depository Building, the Dallas police
found three spent cartridges and a rifle. A nearly whole bullet was
discovered on the stretcher used to carry Governor Connally at Parkland
Hospital. As described in the preceding section, five bullet
fragments were found in the President’s limousine. The cartridge
cases, the nearly whole bullet and the bullet fragments were all subjected
to firearms identification analysis by qualified experts. It was
the unanimous opinion of the experts that the nearly whole bullet, the
two largest bullet fragments and the three cartridge cases were definitely
fired in the rifle found on the sixth floor of the Depository
Building to the exclusion of all other weapons.



WCR = 

Is this why the LNers don't like to quote their sources???   


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ANY CTer Can answer this...if he or she would like to.


David, Let me get this straight: You think there WAS a "POINTY HEAD" bullet found that rolled off of a stretcher, just as Tomlinson said, but you think that that first bullet was switched and relpaced with CE399?

So, you are saying that that first bullet came from Connally?  Remember there's no evidence Connally was hit by more than ONE bullet.

Because, where did that SINGLE bullet come from if not from one of the two men who had just been shot by a rifle?  It certainly could not have come from young Ronnie Fuller's stretcher (we know he wasn't shot by any rifle).

Are you also saying that that first bullet found was not a "Planted Bullet?" You are saying A "second" bullet REPLACED THE FIRST BULLET (THE ONE FOUND BY TOMLINSON)?

By jove he's almost got it!....Wrong.


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Some things we know we know,the rest we have to find out for ourselves

 One of the first things we found out was that the Warren Commission never pursued a conspiracy investigation.
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Go ahead, Ian. I've been waiting, patiently, for someone like you to answer my questions, if you will?

Can you explain exactly what your ideas about the CE399 bullet are?


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Go ahead, Ian. I've been waiting, patiently, for someone like you to answer my questions, if you will?

Can you explain exactly what your ideas about the CE399 bullet are?

Ian, does this look like what I think it looks like?

An effort to generate a personal dispute with a view toward fomenting personal rancor and animosity, which rancor and animosity serving to disrupt and pervert reasoned discussion?

In other words, the unseen real motive here is not to engage in objective reasoned debate, but is really to advance a prepossessed agenda through deception techniques.



THE IMPOSSIBLE ONE DAY JOURNEY OF CE 399

By Jim DiEugenio (with help by J. Edgar Hoover)

In 1966, Ray Marcus wrote a very important monograph called The B astard Bullet. It detailed the journey of the bullet found by hospital attendant Darrell Tomlinson and chief of security O. P. Wright at Parkland Hospital to FBI headquarters on the evening of November 22, 1963. Marcus’ work was exemplary for that time. But since then, and with help from the Assassination Records Review Board, more information has emerged that fills in some of the cracks and crevices in that incredible journey. Specifically this is the work of Gary Aguilar and Josiah Thompson in the essay entitled “The Magical Bullet of the Kennedy Assassination” (The Assassinations, edited by James DiEugenio and Lisa Pease) and two essays at the JFK Lancer site by John Hunt: “Phantom Identification of the Magic Bullet” and “The Mystery of the 7:30 Bullet”.
With this new work in mind, let us update the work of Ray Marcus in regard to the impossible journey of CE 399 on the day President Kenendy was shot. Keeping in mind, that as Dr. Cyril Wecht has noted, the Single Bullet Theory is the “sine que non” of the Warren Commission. Without it, the Commission’s verdict collapses and you hae a conspiracy. And without the Commission’s shiny copper coated, virtually pristine CE 399, there is no Single Bullet Theory.
 
1. CE 399 begins its magical journey at Parkland Hospital. A bullet rolls out from under a mat and lodges against the side of the gurney. (Mark Lane, Rush to Judgment, p. 79) Question: How did it get under the mat? Remember, the Commission will later say this bullet was in John Connally’s body last. No one has ever answered this question.
2. Even Vincent Bugliosi admits that the stretcher it originated from is under question. (Reclaiming History, End Notes, p. 426) But Bugliosi understates the problem here. The weight of the evidence says that the gurney it was found on belonged to neither President Kennedy nor Governor John Connally. (Sylvia Meagher, Accessories After the Fact, pgs. 174-176; Josiah Thompson, Six Seconds in Dallas, pgs. 154-64) It would be a physical impossibility for the bullet to somehow jump from Ron Fuller's stretcher—where Thompson concludes it was found on- to someone else's.
3. When hospital attendant Darrell Tomlinson notices it, the bullet has no blood or tissue on it. (Meagher, p. 173) Yet the Commission will say that this bullet went through two men and caused seven wounds.
4. But yet, it’s even worse than that. Why? Because the Commission will eventually say that the last resting place of this bullet was in the thigh of Governor Connally. How could 1.) The bullet reverse trajectory and work its way out? 2.) How could it emerge out of a wound it already made? Most pathologists will tell you that entry wounds slightly shrink afterwards. 3.) Further, how could it have no blood or tissue on it if it traversed backwards?
5. Tomlinson picks up the bullet at about 1:45 PM and takes it to security officer O. P. Wright. (Thompson, p. 156) Wright is very familiar with firearms since he was with the sheriff's office previously. (ibid, p. 175) Wright gets a good look at the bullet, he notes it as a lead colored, pointed nosed, hunting round. (ibid) This is extremely important since this bullet will change shape and color by the end of its journey..
6. This bullet will be passed through to Secret Service officers Richard Johnsen and Jim Rowley. (Hunt, “The Mystery of the 7:30 Bullet; As a guest, you are not allowed to view links. Register or Login) Yet neither of them will initial the bullet. (Hunt, “Phantom Identification of the Magic Bullet”; As a guest, you are not allowed to view links. Register or Login) And later, neither positively identified it. (Aguilar, p. 282)
7. At the White House, Rowley turns a bullet over to FBI agent Elmer Todd. They sign a receipt. The time of the transfer is 8:50 PM on the 22nd. (Hunt, “The Mystery of the 7:30 Bullet”)
8. Yet as John Hunt shows, agent Robert Frazier at the FBI lab enters the stretcher bullet’s arrival into his notes at 7:30! (ibid) As Hunt notes, if Frazier and Todd can both tell time, something is really wrong here. Frazier has received a bullet that Todd has not given him yet.
9. But it’s even worse. For in an FBI document it says that Todd's initials are on the bullet. (CE 2011, at WC Vol. 24, p. 412) Yet as Hunt has amply demonstrated, they are not there. (Hunt, “Phantom Identification of the Magic Bullet”) In other words, no one who carried this bullet in transit for law enforcement purposes--Johnsen, Rowley, Todd--put their initials on it. When that is what they are trained to do.
10. Later on, J. Edgar Hoover realizes he has a problem. So he writes up a document saying that agent Bardwell Odum visited Parkland, and Wright and Tomlinson did identify the bullet in June of 1964. (Aguilar, p. 282)
11. But later, when visited by Gary Aguilar and Tink Thompson, this is exposed as another in the long line of Hoover generated lies in this case. For Odum did no such thing, and he says he would have recalled doing so since he and Wright were friends. (ibid, p. 284)
12. The night of the assassination, the FBI calls Tomlinson about midnight. They tell him to be quiet about what he found that day. Since what he found that day was a lead colored, sharp nosed hunting round, they must not want him to tell anyone about the bullet. (Jim Marrs, Crossfire, p. 365; David Lifton, Best Evidence, p. 591) A natural question to ask is: Why? A natural answer is: Because they have realized that the original bullet will not match the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle now attributed to Oswald.
13. When Wright composes his affidavit for the WC, incredibly, he leaves out his co-discovery of the bullet and his giving it to the Secret Service. (Lifton, ibid) Even though Johnsen recorded this and its in the volumes. (Thompson, p. 155) Since he was a former law enforcement officer, to leave something like that out, he was probably directed to.
14. When it comes time to write the Warren Report, Wright's name is not in it. And there is no evidence Arlen Specter interviewed him.
15. In late 1966, we find out why Specter avoided him. Thompson interviews him and he rejects CE 399 as the bullet he gave Johnsen. Twice. (Thompson, p.175) Interestingly, in Reclaiming History, Vincent Bugliosi leaves this powerful incident out of his discussion of the issue. (Bugliosi, End Notes, pgs. 426-27, 544-45)
To say that the chain of evidence rule has been violated in this case is a monumental understatement. Former Chief of Homicide in New York, attorney Bob Tanenbaum once said that it would be embarrassing to present this material to a jury for the prosecution. For me, the most incriminating elements is the evidence that the FBI knew that CE 399 was not the original bullet i.e. the call to Tomlinson, the fake Odum document, possibly the influence over Wright to leave it out of his affidavit, Specter avoiding Wright in the Commission inquiry.
So from the beginning, with its reverse trajectory out of the thigh of Connally, to its incredible tunneling under a mat, to its leaping out of Ron Fuller's stretcher and magically knowing it has to be on the governor’s, to its shocking ability to alter its form and color, and then to actually crack the time barrier and be in Frazier's office before Todd gives it to him, the Impossible Journey of CE 399 is even more magical than anyone ever could imagine.
What is truly incredible about the above demonstration is that I have left all the other arguments about the Magic Bullet out i.e. weight and trajectory etc. To me, in the face of the above, they are irrelevant. The CE 399 we know was not found at Parkland. And that ends this argument.
Everything else—the computer simulations, the drawings etc.-is irrelevant. As Shakespeare said, it is sound and fury signifying nothing. At the time of the assassination, CE 399 as we know it today, did not exist.



 

 


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I wanted to hear your explanation, Ian, not this same DiEugenio write up that Miles keeps posting over and over.

However, you avoided my question. You do believe a bullet was found (not CE399) on a stretcher? Btw, there is no proof--and it's very unlikely--a bullet was found on Fuller's stretcher. Little Ronnie wasn't shot by a rifle, but Connally and Kennedy were (just wanted to point that out).

Ok, so you DO believe, then, in the SBT? IF YOU BELIEVE A SINGLE BULLET WAS FOUND, THAN WE CAN ASSUME YOU BELIEVE IN THE SBT,  RIGHT?  You just happen to believe that the single bullet ORIGINALLY found by Tomlinson, was not from Oswald's rifle, right?

This next quote from DiEugenio shows how he is can be such  a trickster--especially for someone who wouldn't know better, "The bullet reverse trajectory and worked its way out? 2.) How could it emerge out of a wound it already made? "

Jim knows very well that that bullet would have entered and exited Connally's body 4 times by the time it hit his thigh. The thigh wound was very shallow.

He doesn't explain the SBT, though.


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To avoid taking up bandwidth, I will avoid duplication by deleting this post where it appeared earlier on page one of this thread.

This post and the THE IMPOSSIBLE ONE DAY JOURNEY OF CE 399 by Jim DiEugenio cover the questions advanced.





And just think, Latimer has devoted much of his life showing how this bullet could have caused
seven wounds with nary a scratch, when in fact there is nothing to link this bullet to Connally
(or Kennedy for that matter).

The fact that the bullet can be linked to Oswald's gun makes it look all the more like a plant.





 warrenxx warrenxx warrenxx warrenxx warrenxx warrenxx



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I wanted to hear your explanation, Ian, not this same DiEugenio write up that Miles keeps posting over and over.

However, you avoided my question. You do believe a bullet was found (not CE399) on a stretcher? Btw, there is no proof--and it's very unlikely--a bullet was found on Fuller's stretcher. Little Ronnie wasn't shot by a rifle, but Connally and Kennedy were (just wanted to point that out).

Ok, so you DO believe, then, in the SBT? IF YOU BELIEVE A SINGLE BULLET WAS FOUND, THAN WE CAN ASSUME YOU BELIEVE IN THE SBT,  RIGHT?  You just happen to believe that the single bullet ORIGINALLY found by Tomlinson, was not from Oswald's rifle, right?

This next quote from DiEugenio shows how he is can be such  a trickster--especially for someone who wouldn't know better, "The bullet reverse trajectory and worked its way out? 2.) How could it emerge out of a wound it already made? "

Jim knows very well that that bullet would have entered and exited Connally's body 4 times by the time it hit his thigh. The thigh wound was very shallow.

He doesn't explain the SBT, though.

Thats the problem you cannot explain the SBT ,So you resort to calling him names ,You are intimating YOU are a trickster
Either reveal details of the trick he pulled or reveal your true agenda as suggested by my learned friend Mr.Scull.


Here is a hint think of the shape of a bullet (Cylindrical wedge) What happens to a wedge with little frictional resistance to its holder especially when the holder is a muscle THINK hard now Kevin there will be a test later.


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Oh, I'm sorry I criticized, Jim. I take it back.

OK, now, where do you think that bullet came from? You guys won't explain.

This is the part of the whole journey of this bullet I don't get. Ian, you say there was a bullet that was found, but it couldn't have made the wounds Connally and Kennedy had?

That doesn't make sense. Where did this bullet come from. Where do you think this bullet came from? The one Tomlinson found (not CE399)?


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Oh, I'm sorry I criticized, Jim. I take it back.

OK, now, where do you think that bullet came from? You guys won't explain.

This is the part of the whole journey of this bullet I don't get. Ian, you say there was a bullet that was found, but it couldn't have made the wounds Connally and Kennedy had?

That doesn't make sense. Where did this bullet come from. Where do you think this bullet came from? The one Tomlinson found (not CE399)?

You seem to be taking a position that someone (we) should provide an explanation to you as to the movements of the bullet as they occurred BEFORE it was found.

Why?

Do you think that these unknown bullet movements should be postulated by someone other than yourself?

Where do you think the bullet came from?

The Bullet Department?


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Oh, I'm sorry I criticized, Jim. I take it back.

OK, now, where do you think that bullet came from? You guys won't explain.

This is the part of the whole journey of this bullet I don't get. Ian, you say there was a bullet that was found, but it couldn't have made the wounds Connally and Kennedy had?

That doesn't make sense. Where did this bullet come from. Where do you think this bullet came from? The one Tomlinson found (not CE399)?

Go back and read the evidence that does not need to be altered .2 bullets were sent from Dallas to Washington according to the evidence they are both signed for at different times but 1 disappears or was it the same bullet sent by 2 different agents at 2 different times?.And which bullet was sent ?.was it the one found by Tomlinson on A stretcher ?or was it the one found on Connally's stretcher ?. Or was it the one that fell out of JFK after failed heart massage?. And it has been "proved" that this bullet was fired from the rifle found on the 6th floor. As it says at the top of the thread

None of the FBI agents that handled the bullet known as CE399 could recognise it so there is the distinct possibility it arrived via other means at another time.and definitely has no chain of custody from the moment it was discovered cos no-one could recognise it not even the man that found it He said it was grey and pointy not round and long .BTW We are talking about Dallas not Dagenham lots of people in the hospital game knew about guns and gunshot wounds.


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A paragraph of absolutely NOTHING. In the future, I won't waste my time with such a well versed person like you, Ian. I didn't know you understood the assassination so WELL.

You guys want it both ways! You want your cake, and you want to eat your cake.

What a cop out.

I had a feeling I was going to get this kind of response from Miles and Ian.  Thanks for NOTHING!


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A paragraph of absolutely NOTHING. In the future, I won't waste my time with such a well versed person like you, Ian. I didn't know you understood the assassination so WELL.

You guys want it both ways! You want your cake, and you want to eat your cake.

What a cop out.

I had a feeling I was going to get this kind of response from Miles and Ian.  Thanks for NOTHING!

Right.

The judge throws your nonsense out of court.

Your response?

A silly temper tantrum!                   rofl




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A paragraph of absolutely NOTHING. In the future, I won't waste my time with such a well versed person like you, Ian. I didn't know you understood the assassination so WELL.

You guys want it both ways! You want your cake, and you want to eat your cake.

What a cop out.

I had a feeling I was going to get this kind of response from Miles and Ian.  Thanks for NOTHING!

Kevin

Not nothing it means you have to read all about the subject that you possibly can before you make your mind up ,if it was a trick or an insult or help.
If you read only the Oswald weighted evidence you will come to the conclusion that Oswald did it .I however approach from the How did he do it angle.
How did he manage to involve so many agents and agencies  before and after the assassination and he was a Sole assassin with no help whatsoever.
How did he manage to get evidence removed or just ignored while he was dead?.
Go and read some of the executive session( Redlich to Rankin) meetings these were not supposed to be seen for many years but thanks to diligent researchers they got released now you too can read the lies they were worried about and how they could circumvent evidence McCloy was an expert at this it was his Job.

Ian


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