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Tomlinson, Wright, Johnson and Rowley say CE399 NOT the bullet  (Read 5743 times)
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A WCR exhibit just sitting there ready to be used in the conclusion and summary of the report...

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Yet the conclusion is surprisingly NOT the same....
Why would the WCR L-I-E like that??                        walkietalkie2
and not tell us in the body of the report about the reallity of their exhibit CE399.....

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1. The shots which killed President Kennedy and wounded Governor
Connally were fired from the sixth floor window at the southeast
corner of the Texas School Book Depository. This determination
is based upon the following :
(a) Witnesses at the scene of the assassination saw a rifle being
fired from the sixth floor window of the Depository Building,
and some witnesses saw a rifle in the window immediately after
the shots were fired.
(b) The nearly whole bullet found on Governor Connally’s
stretcher at Parkland Memorial Hospital and the two bullet fragments
found in the front seat of the Presidential limousine were
fired from the 6.5millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano rifle found on
the sixth floor of the Depository Building to the exclusion of all
other weapons
.

EXPERT EXAMINATION OF RIFLE, CARTRIDGE CASES,
AND BULLET FRAGMENTS
On the sixth floor of the Depository Building, the Dallas police
found three spent cartridges and a rifle. A nearly whole bullet was
discovered on the stretcher used to carry Governor Connally at Parkland
Hospital. As described in the preceding section, five bullet
fragments were found in the President’s limousine. The cartridge
cases, the nearly whole bullet and the bullet fragments were all subjected
to firearms identification analysis by qualified experts. It was
the unanimous opinion of the experts that the nearly whole bullet, the
two largest bullet fragments and the three cartridge cases were definitely
fired in the rifle found on the sixth floor of the Depository
Building to the exclusion of all other weapons.



WCR = 

Is this why the LNers don't like to quote their sources???   


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It clearly states "Experts" determined they were all fired by Oswalds rifle.

I don't know if I could positively identify a bullet (under oath) that I saw before. The best would most likely be "It looks like it."



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It clearly states "Experts" determined they were all fired by Oswalds rifle.

I don't know if I could positively identify a bullet (under oath) that I saw before. The best would most likely be "It looks like it."



If the bullet they tested and determined to have been fired from the MC... was not identified by the 4 people who came in direct contact with it as the bullet that was found...

The suggestion is that the bullet was planted AFTER being fired from the MC at some point...  the bullet found had a pointed nose and was much smaller than CE399... that's why they couldn't ID it, or wouldn't for that matter...

This is that pesky "authentication" of evidence we speak of...  CE399 IS NOT AUTHENTICATED as the bullet any one of these 4 men came in contact with...
This IMPEACHES the authenticity of the evidence and CANNOT be used to determin anything, let alone guilt.

The fact they are certain it came from the MC AND could not be identified as the one found is even more evidence that something was wrong not only with that piece of evidence but the SBT
that ultimately followed from it...  the WCR is a house of cards...  attempt to authenticate even a single piece of the so called evidence and it all falls apart...

but you already knew that... right?    warrenxx


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The suggestion is that the bullet was planted AFTER being fired from the MC at some point...  the bullet found had a pointed nose and was much smaller than CE399... that's why they couldn't ID it, or wouldn't for that matter...

I know that's what you're thinking. That's the problem, you go right to that thought. With all of the evidence that points to Oswald, why does your mind go the other way? Why do you try so hard to prove this man (Oswald) was set up?

It's more likely (when you consider all of the evidence against Oswald) that there is a non-conspiratorial explanation as to why they can't "Positively" identify it.


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I know that's what you're thinking. That's the problem, you go right to that thought. With all of the evidence that points to Oswald, why does your mind go the other way? Why do you try so hard to prove this man (Oswald) was set up?

It's more likely (when you consider all of the evidence against Oswald) that there is a non-conspiratorial explanation as to why they can't "Positively" identify it.

THE IMPOSSIBLE ONE DAY JOURNEY OF CE 399

By Jim DiEugenio (with help by J. Edgar Hoover)

In 1966, Ray Marcus wrote a very important monograph called The B astard Bullet. It detailed the journey of the bullet found by hospital attendant Darrell Tomlinson and chief of security O. P. Wright at Parkland Hospital to FBI headquarters on the evening of November 22, 1963. Marcus’ work was exemplary for that time. But since then, and with help from the Assassination Records Review Board, more information has emerged that fills in some of the cracks and crevices in that incredible journey. Specifically this is the work of Gary Aguilar and Josiah Thompson in the essay entitled “The Magical Bullet of the Kennedy Assassination” (The Assassinations, edited by James DiEugenio and Lisa Pease) and two essays at the JFK Lancer site by John Hunt: “Phantom Identification of the Magic Bullet” and “The Mystery of the 7:30 Bullet”.
With this new work in mind, let us update the work of Ray Marcus in regard to the impossible journey of CE 399 on the day President Kenendy was shot. Keeping in mind, that as Dr. Cyril Wecht has noted, the Single Bullet Theory is the “sine que non” of the Warren Commission. Without it, the Commission’s verdict collapses and you hae a conspiracy. And without the Commission’s shiny copper coated, virtually pristine CE 399, there is no Single Bullet Theory.
 
1. CE 399 begins its magical journey at Parkland Hospital. A bullet rolls out from under a mat and lodges against the side of the gurney. (Mark Lane, Rush to Judgment, p. 79) Question: How did it get under the mat? Remember, the Commission will later say this bullet was in John Connally’s body last. No one has ever answered this question.
2. Even Vincent Bugliosi admits that the stretcher it originated from is under question. (Reclaiming History, End Notes, p. 426) But Bugliosi understates the problem here. The weight of the evidence says that the gurney it was found on belonged to neither President Kennedy nor Governor John Connally. (Sylvia Meagher, Accessories After the Fact, pgs. 174-176; Josiah Thompson, Six Seconds in Dallas, pgs. 154-64) It would be a physical impossibility for the bullet to somehow jump from Ron Fuller's stretcher—where Thompson concludes it was found on- to someone else's.
3. When hospital attendant Darrell Tomlinson notices it, the bullet has no blood or tissue on it. (Meagher, p. 173) Yet the Commission will say that this bullet went through two men and caused seven wounds.
4. But yet, it’s even worse than that. Why? Because the Commission will eventually say that the last resting place of this bullet was in the thigh of Governor Connally. How could 1.) The bullet reverse trajectory and work its way out? 2.) How could it emerge out of a wound it already made? Most pathologists will tell you that entry wounds slightly shrink afterwards. 3.) Further, how could it have no blood or tissue on it if it traversed backwards?
5. Tomlinson picks up the bullet at about 1:45 PM and takes it to security officer O. P. Wright. (Thompson, p. 156) Wright is very familiar with firearms since he was with the sheriff's office previously. (ibid, p. 175) Wright gets a good look at the bullet, he notes it as a lead colored, pointed nosed, hunting round. (ibid) This is extremely important since this bullet will change shape and color by the end of its journey..
6. This bullet will be passed through to Secret Service officers Richard Johnsen and Jim Rowley. (Hunt, “The Mystery of the 7:30 Bullet; As a guest, you are not allowed to view links. Register or Login) Yet neither of them will initial the bullet. (Hunt, “Phantom Identification of the Magic Bullet”; As a guest, you are not allowed to view links. Register or Login) And later, neither positively identified it. (Aguilar, p. 282)
7. At the White House, Rowley turns a bullet over to FBI agent Elmer Todd. They sign a receipt. The time of the transfer is 8:50 PM on the 22nd. (Hunt, “The Mystery of the 7:30 Bullet”)
8. Yet as John Hunt shows, agent Robert Frazier at the FBI lab enters the stretcher bullet’s arrival into his notes at 7:30! (ibid) As Hunt notes, if Frazier and Todd can both tell time, something is really wrong here. Frazier has received a bullet that Todd has not given him yet.
9. But it’s even worse. For in an FBI document it says that Todd's initials are on the bullet. (CE 2011, at WC Vol. 24, p. 412) Yet as Hunt has amply demonstrated, they are not there. (Hunt, “Phantom Identification of the Magic Bullet”) In other words, no one who carried this bullet in transit for law enforcement purposes--Johnsen, Rowley, Todd--put their initials on it. When that is what they are trained to do.
10. Later on, J. Edgar Hoover realizes he has a problem. So he writes up a document saying that agent Bardwell Odum visited Parkland, and Wright and Tomlinson did identify the bullet in June of 1964. (Aguilar, p. 282)
11. But later, when visited by Gary Aguilar and Tink Thompson, this is exposed as another in the long line of Hoover generated lies in this case. For Odum did no such thing, and he says he would have recalled doing so since he and Wright were friends. (ibid, p. 284)
12. The night of the assassination, the FBI calls Tomlinson about midnight. They tell him to be quiet about what he found that day. Since what he found that day was a lead colored, sharp nosed hunting round, they must not want him to tell anyone about the bullet. (Jim Marrs, Crossfire, p. 365; David Lifton, Best Evidence, p. 591) A natural question to ask is: Why? A natural answer is: Because they have realized that the original bullet will not match the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle now attributed to Oswald.
13. When Wright composes his affidavit for the WC, incredibly, he leaves out his co-discovery of the bullet and his giving it to the Secret Service. (Lifton, ibid) Even though Johnsen recorded this and its in the volumes. (Thompson, p. 155) Since he was a former law enforcement officer, to leave something like that out, he was probably directed to.
14. When it comes time to write the Warren Report, Wright's name is not in it. And there is no evidence Arlen Specter interviewed him.
15. In late 1966, we find out why Specter avoided him. Thompson interviews him and he rejects CE 399 as the bullet he gave Johnsen. Twice. (Thompson, p.175) Interestingly, in Reclaiming History, Vincent Bugliosi leaves this powerful incident out of his discussion of the issue. (Bugliosi, End Notes, pgs. 426-27, 544-45)
To say that the chain of evidence rule has been violated in this case is a monumental understatement. Former Chief of Homicide in New York, attorney Bob Tanenbaum once said that it would be embarrassing to present this material to a jury for the prosecution. For me, the most incriminating elements is the evidence that the FBI knew that CE 399 was not the original bullet i.e. the call to Tomlinson, the fake Odum document, possibly the influence over Wright to leave it out of his affidavit, Specter avoiding Wright in the Commission inquiry.
So from the beginning, with its reverse trajectory out of the thigh of Connally, to its incredible tunneling under a mat, to its leaping out of Ron Fuller's stretcher and magically knowing it has to be on the governor’s, to its shocking ability to alter its form and color, and then to actually crack the time barrier and be in Frazier's office before Todd gives it to him, the Impossible Journey of CE 399 is even more magical than anyone ever could imagine.
What is truly incredible about the above demonstration is that I have left all the other arguments about the Magic Bullet out i.e. weight and trajectory etc. To me, in the face of the above, they are irrelevant. The CE 399 we know was not found at Parkland. And that ends this argument.
Everything else—the computer simulations, the drawings etc.-is irrelevant. As Shakespeare said, it is sound and fury signifying nothing. At the time of the assassination, CE 399 as we know it today, did not exist.



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Again, much ado about nothing.

Ay dios mio!  ahxx


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I know that's what you're thinking. That's the problem, you go right to that thought. With all of the evidence that points to Oswald, why does your mind go the other way? Why do you try so hard to prove this man (Oswald) was set up?

It's more likely (when you consider all of the evidence against Oswald) that there is a non-conspiratorial explanation as to why they can't "Positively" identify it.

Kevin lets go through YOUR evidence 1 peice at a time. First of all how do you prove a Fragment was fired from 1 and only 1 weapon to the exclusivity of ALL other weapons?.


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Some things we know we know,the rest we have to find out for ourselves

 One of the first things we found out was that the Warren Commission never pursued a conspiracy investigation.
Louis Stokes

Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room

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It clearly states "Experts" determined they were all fired by Oswalds rifle.

What was "Oswald's rifle" again?  I remember asking you to cite the evidence that showed he ordered and received a 40" Carcano and you ran from that request, but here you are again claiming there was an "Oswald's rifle!"

Quote
I don't know if I could positively identify a bullet (under oath) that I saw before. The best would most likely be "It looks like it."

No one ID CE-399 as being they bullet they saw and/or touched on 11/22/63.  One of these was a SS Agent who are trained in paying attention!

Excuses, excuses.  If it weren't for excuses all the LNers would be left with would be denial!



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A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy

"Benavides- Saw Oswald kill Tippit, picked him out of a lineup." - Brian "Doesn't Know His Rear From His Back" Walker

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I know that's what you're thinking. That's the problem, you go right to that thought. With all of the evidence that points to Oswald, why does your mind go the other way? Why do you try so hard to prove this man (Oswald) was set up?

It's more likely (when you consider all of the evidence against Oswald) that there is a non-conspiratorial explanation as to why they can't "Positively" identify it.

Isn't it funny how old Kev has appeared now that Mike Williams has taken a siesta from the board?  They just keep rotating stock!


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I know that's what you're thinking. That's the problem, you go right to that thought. With all of the evidence that points to Oswald, why does your mind go the other way? Why do you try so hard to prove this man (Oswald) was set up?

It's more likely (when you consider all of the evidence against Oswald) that there is a non-conspiratorial explanation as to why they can't "Positively" identify it.

Please list and authenticate "all of the evidence that points to Oswald" - if you can haphazardly make the statement you should have at least SOMETHING to show us
so we can believe you know what you are talking about....  you expect  no less from us.

and just in case you need an explanation of what it means to authenticate evidence:


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IV. REAL EVIDENCE.

Real evidence is a thing the existence or characteristics of which are relevant and material. It is usually a thing that was directly involved in some event in the case. The written contract upon which an action is based is real evidence both to prove its terms and that it was executed by the defendant. If it is written in a faltering and unsteady hand, it may also be relevant to show that the writer was under duress at the time of its execution. The bloody bloomers, the murder weapon, a crumpled automobile, the scene of an accident--all may be real evidence.

To be admissible, real evidence, like all evidence, must be relevant, material, and competent. Establishing these basic prerequisites, and any other special ones that may apply, is called laying a foundation. The relevance and materiality of real evidence are usually obvious. Its competence is established by showing that it really is what it is supposed to be. Proving that real or other evidence is what it purports to be is called authentication. Evid. Code § 1400; Fed. Rules Evid. 901.

Real evidence may be authenticated in three ways--by identification of a unique object, by identification of an object that has been made unique, and by establishing a chain of custody. You only have to be able to use one of these ways, though it is prudent to prepare to use an alternate method in case the court is not satisfied with the one you have chosen.

The easiest and usually the least troublesome way to authenticate real evidence is by the testimony of a witness who can identify a unique object in court. For example, the curator of a museum may be able to testify that he is familiar with, say, Picasso's "Dames de Avignon" and that what has been marked as exhibit so-and-so is in fact that unfortunate painting. It is important to remember, however, that many more mundane objects may be amenable to this kind of identification. A unique contract, or one that has been signed, may be authenticated by a person who is familiar with the document or its signatures. A ring may have an inscription by which it can be identified. Even a manufactured object, like a wallet, may be identifiable by its owner after years of use have given it a unique personality.

The second method--identification in court of an object that has been made unique, is extremely useful since it sometimes allows a lawyer or client to avoid the pitfalls of proving a chain of custody by exercising some forethought. If a witness who can establish an object's relevance to the case marks it with his signature, initials, or another mark that will allow him to testify that he can tell it from all other objects of its kind, that witness will be allowed to identify the object in court and thus to authenticate it. Often, if a member of the lawyer's staff or another person early in the chain of custody marks the evidence, big problems can be avoided if a later link in the chain turns out to be missing.

The third and least desirable way to authenticate real evidence is by establishing a chain of custody. Establishing a chain of custody requires that the whereabouts of the evidence at all times since the evidence was involved in the events at issue be established by competent testimony.

The proponent of the evidence must also establish that the object, in relevant respects, has not changed or been altered between the events and the trial. This can sometimes be a tall order, or can require the testimony of several witnesses. If there is any time from the events in question to the day of trial during which the location of the item cannot be accounted for, the chain is broken. In that case, the evidence will be excluded unless another method of authentication can be used.



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The suggestion is that the bullet was planted AFTER being fired from the MC at some point...  the bullet found had a pointed nose and was much smaller than CE399... that's why they couldn't ID it, or wouldn't for that matter...

David, Let me get this straight: You think there WAS a "POINTY HEAD" bullet found that rolled off of a stretcher, just as Tomlinson said, but you think that that first bullet was switched and relpaced with CE399?

So, you are saying that that first bullet came from Connally?  Remember there's no evidence Connally was hit by more than ONE bullet.

Because, where did that SINGLE bullet come from if not from one of the two men who had just been shot by a rifle?  It certainly could not have come from young Ronnie Fuller's stretcher (we know he wasn't shot by any rifle).

Are you also saying that that first bullet found was not a "Planted Bullet?" You are saying A "second" bullet REPLACED THE FIRST BULLET (THE ONE FOUND BY TOMLINSON)?


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« Last Edit: July 22, 2011, 01:21:16 PM by Kevin Raftery »

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ANY CTer Can answer this...if he or she would like to.


David, Let me get this straight: You think there WAS a "POINTY HEAD" bullet found that rolled off of a stretcher, just as Tomlinson said, but you think that that first bullet was switched and relpaced with CE399?

So, you are saying that that first bullet came from Connally?  Remember there's no evidence Connally was hit by more than ONE bullet.

Because, where did that SINGLE bullet come from if not from one of the two men who had just been shot by a rifle?  It certainly could not have come from young Ronnie Fuller's stretcher (we know he wasn't shot by any rifle).

Are you also saying that that first bullet found was not a "Planted Bullet?" You are saying A "second" bullet REPLACED THE FIRST BULLET (THE ONE FOUND BY TOMLINSON)?


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