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 April 10, 2011, 11:39:27 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 9143
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David,
I have read, I think, twice now that you said there are two C2766 rifles in custody. Id like you to show me more on this. It is something I do not think I have heard before.
Thanks Buddy,
Mike
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Marsh can not even comprehend a simple time stamp. How will he ever comprehend the evidence?
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January 12, 2012, 04:15:16 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 6711
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Tom
I'm not trying to be a smart aleck or anything but, I'm having difficulty following what you are saying.
On one hand, it seems you are saying the base of a 6.5mm Carcano FMJ bullet, made by the Western Cartridge Co., is completely covered in copper.
On the other hand, you seem to be agreeing with me that the base of a WCC 6.5mm Carcano FMJ bullet (and the majority of FMJ bullets on this planet) is purposely left with the lead exposed as part of a design to relieve internal pressures on a FMJ bullet as it deforms. If you knew this, why would you question Frazier about the "missing" copper on the base of CE 399?
The base being open has nothing to do with a design to relieve internal pressure on a FMJ bullet as it deforms. It is a by-product of the way the bullets are manufactured.
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January 12, 2012, 04:50:00 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 6711
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Gerda I don't think there actually is a FMJ bullet that does not have exposed lead at its base. Here is a link to something similar: As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login The photo shows bullets known as Total Metal Jacket, referred to in the link. Addition: The closer I look at this photo, which appeared with the page about TMJ bullets, the more I think I can see exposed tips on these bullets. Hmmmm..... You should also look for cross sections of FMJ bullets. As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login Jacketed bullets usually have an opening at the base or the nose but some are have no opening in the jacket material. These bullets are called totally-metal-jacketed bullets (TMJ) or encapsulated bullets. FMJ is "Full Metal Jacket" and is used to describe rounds that are entirely encased (except for the bullet base, typically) in a metal jacket, usually copper alloy called gilding metal. FMJ rounds are also sometimes referred to as "ball" (meaning "standard") ammunition by the military. Generally these rounds are designed with little to no expansion in mind. They are comparatively inexpensive to produce, feed well, give good penetration in most materials. The jacketed nose prevents bullet expansion and typically leaves the bullet intact after striking flesh (the 5.56 round is a notable exception). JSP is "Jacketed Soft Point" and is used to describe rounds that are encased in a metal jacket, again, usually gilding metal, but leave the soft lead core exposed at the tip of the bullet. The soft nose deforms upon striking dense mediums, and these rounds are generally designed to expand rapidly at the nose and mushroom, ensuring that the center of gravity stays in front, and causing the bullet to continue traveling forward through the target. The larger frontal surface area causes more tissue disruption compared to most non-expanding bullets. JHP is "Jacketed Hollow Point" and is used to describe rounds that are encased in a metal jacket, gilding metal again, but have a small cavity in the nose along with a round opening in the jacket in the nose. JHP rounds are also designed for expansion but tend to have faster "mushrooming" effects because the hollow point is filled with high-pressure material when the bullet impacts, often peeling back the jacket and making a "mushroom" shaped projectile. BT stands for "Boat Tail" and refers to the base of the bullet. A "Boat Tail" is a sloping end which narrows gently at the base of the bullet, so that the cross-section resembles the shape of a boat's hull. The boat tail shape reduces drag on a bullet, helping it to retain velocity and resist deflection from crosswinds, but causes the bullet to take longer to "settle" after leaving the barrel compared to a standard "flat-base" bullet. Boat tail bullets are usually selected for long-range shooting, while the flat-base bullet shape tends to be more accurate at short ranges. A "HPBT" bullet is a "Hollow Point Boat Tail" bullet.
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January 12, 2012, 04:51:34 AM
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Super Member
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could someone post an image of a (any) FMJ bullet that has its base fully copper-covered ? (if there is such a thing).. for to see what is meant by that and for comparison ?
As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login
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January 12, 2012, 05:23:16 AM
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Super Member
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Anthony Do not confuse Total Metal Jacket bullets with Full Metal Jacket bullets. The last diagram you posted is of a TMJ bullet, not a FMJ bullet. TMJ bullets are designed to minimise lead pollution at ranges (usually indoor) by preventing hot gases in the barrel from eroding lead from the normally open base of a FMJ bullet or from the exposed tip of a soft tipped bullet. FMJ bullets are designed to cause humane wounds in enemy combatants as they do not expand like soft tipped or hollow point bullets. However, they will compress, either laterally or longitudinally. Without relief, the pressure of the lead compressed inside the jacket would rise to the point it would rupture the copper jacket. This would cause expansion and disintegration of the FMJ bullet and totally defeat the purpose of making a FMJ bullet in the first place. It is no coincidence that FMJ bullets are open at the base, unlike the jackets of soft tipped, hollow point or TMJ bullets which have no opening at the base. This open base allows compressed lead to be extruded and lost out the base, as seen in Connally's wrist, and keeps pressures from elevating inside the FMJ bullet. Do not even begin to try to deny this is the reason FMJ bullets are left open at the base. You are as wrong on this one as you can be. JFK was not shot in the head with a FMJ 6.5mm Carcano bullet. Remember, this very type of bullet was used in Africa to shoot elephants in the head simply because it has tremendous penetration capabilities. These were needed to penetrate the very thick skulls of elephants. I doubt if JFK's skull was thicker than an elephant's and it is unlikely the bullet would have disintegrated in that fashion.
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"He was always cold but the land of gold, seemed to hold him like a spell
Though he'd often say, in his homely way, that he'd "sooner live in Hell" "
~~Robert W. Service~~
"Never have discussions with the monkey when the organ grinder is in the room."
~~Sir Winston Churchill~~
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January 12, 2012, 05:29:44 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 6711
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Anthony
Do not confuse Total Metal Jacket bullets with Full Metal Jacket bullets. The last diagram you posted is of a TMJ bullet, not a FMJ bullet.
TMJ bullets are designed to minimise lead pollution at ranges (usually indoor) by preventing hot gases in the barrel from eroding lead from the normally open base of a FMJ bullet or from the exposed tip of a soft tipped bullet.
FMJ bullets are designed to cause humane wounds in enemy combatants as they do not expand like soft tipped or hollow point bullets. However, they will compress, either laterally or longitudinally. Without relief, the pressure of the lead compressed inside the jacket would rise to the point it would rupture the copper jacket. This would cause expansion and disintegration of the FMJ bullet and totally defeat the purpose of making a FMJ bullet in the first place. It is no coincidence that FMJ bullets are open at the base, unlike the jackets of soft tipped, hollow point or TMJ bullets which have no opening at the base. This open base allows compressed lead to be extruded and lost out the base, as seen in Connally's wrist, and keeps pressures from elevating inside the FMJ bullet.
Do not even begin to try to deny this is the reason FMJ bullets are left open at the base. You are as wrong on this one as you can be.
JFK was not shot in the head with a FMJ 6.5mm Carcano bullet. Remember, this very type of bullet was used in Africa to shoot elephants in the head simply because it has tremendous penetration capabilities. These were needed to penetrate the very thick skulls of elephants. I doubt if JFK's skull was thicker than an elephant's and it is unlikely the bullet would have disintegrated in that fashion.
Eroding the lead base? What are you smoking and how much does it cost? The example I uploaded is BALL ammunition which is FMJ. The example you uploaded has an exposed tip. In case you forgot, I said that an explosive bullet hit JFK's head. The head wound is not compatible with Oswald's ammo.
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January 12, 2012, 06:03:12 AM
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Eroding the lead base? What are you smoking and how much does it cost?
The example I uploaded is BALL ammunition which is FMJ.
The example you uploaded has an exposed tip.
In case you forgot, I said that an explosive bullet hit JFK's head. The head wound is not compatible with Oswald's ammo.
Please read the following and then go back and look at the diagram you posted and tell me if it is a FMJ or TJ bullet. TMJ TMJ bullets are Totally Metal Jacketed bullets, and are part of the Uni-Cor family. TMJ bullets address the accuracy robbing characteristics of the open base on regular FMJ bullets. An FMJ bullet is open at the base, and upon firing the high pressure gas behind the bullet can deform its base and cause a loss of accuracy. TMJs have a closed base and can’t suffer from base deformation. TMJ bullets are naturally intended for the match bullet market, but are also a perfect choice for those seeking top accuracy from their fine pistols. An added benefit to this completely covered lead core is that no lead is exposed upon firing or bullet impact with the target, meaning that no airborne lead contamination can result from the use of this bullet and a lead free primer. This is a plus when doing extensive indoor shooting. Some states have laws requiring any ammunition being fired indoors to be of a “lead free” or encapsulated design. At least, we agree that JFK was not shot in the head with a FMJ bullet.
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January 20, 2012, 09:40:28 PM
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Sr. Member
Posts: 305
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Almost correct!
However, were I looking for the lead core portion of CE399 that was squeezed out the bottom of the bullet base, I would not waste time looking at the irregular fragment(s) associated with JBC's wrist wound.
Personally!
I would look for the cone-shaped, flat-based, uniform fragment found in CE840, which had a 4.5mm width. (the same as the exposed lead core at the base of a WCC Carcano bullet)
P.S. For the record, it weighed in at 0.9 grains.
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January 20, 2012, 09:41:23 PM
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Sr. Member
Posts: 305
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Full examination and disclosure of the facts.
Tom
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January 21, 2012, 07:50:55 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 2181
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Almost correct!
However, were I looking for the lead core portion of CE399 that was squeezed out the bottom of the bullet base, I would not waste time looking at the irregular fragment(s) associated with JBC's wrist wound.
Personally!
I would look for the cone-shaped, flat-based, uniform fragment found in CE840, which had a 4.5mm width. (the same as the exposed lead core at the base of a WCC Carcano bullet)
P.S. For the record, it weighed in at 0.9 grains.
Okay, Tom, I'm trying to follow you but you don't make it easy. Did this particle of lead fall out of JFK's back as he was lying on Jackie's lap in the limo and end up on the floor behind the left jump seat? And CE 399 fell out of his back at Parkland Hospital?
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January 26, 2012, 08:14:06 PM
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Sr. Member
Posts: 305
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Actually, the cone-shaped/flat-based, fragment of lead found in CE840 (which also weighed 0.9 grains and which came from the base of CE399) was found in the left rear floorboard in the vicinity of where Jackie's feet were.
Along with two other irregular fragments, all three of which originally completed CE840.
And yes, in order to make the exit wound in the anterior throat of JFK, it barely managed to exit. Just as one of the Parkland Dr.s later described.
Hope there was nothing "cryptic" about that answer.
Tom
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January 26, 2012, 08:19:23 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 2181
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Actually, the cone-shaped/flat-based, fragment of lead found in CE840 (which also weighed 0.9 grains and which came from the base of CE399) was found in the left rear floorboard in the vicinity of where Jackie's feet were.
Along with two other irregular fragments, all three of which originally completed CE840.
And yes, in order to make the exit wound in the anterior throat of JFK, it barely managed to exit. Just as one of the Parkland Dr.s later described.
Hope there was nothing "cryptic" about that answer.
Tom
Nope, that was not cryptic at all. You make a person work for the answer but now I see what you are saying. Hmmm, interesting theory. It's going to take me some time to mull this one over.
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January 30, 2012, 11:09:37 PM
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Sr. Member
Posts: 305
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Nope, that was not cryptic at all. You make a person work for the answer but now I see what you are saying.
Hmmm, interesting theory. It's going to take me some time to mull this one over.
Might help if one reads what FBI Firearms Expert Robert Frazier had to say during the Clay Shaw trial in New Orleans.
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