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 April 10, 2011, 11:39:27 PM
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David,
I have read, I think, twice now that you said there are two C2766 rifles in custody. Id like you to show me more on this. It is something I do not think I have heard before.
Thanks Buddy,
Mike
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Marsh can not even comprehend a simple time stamp. How will he ever comprehend the evidence?
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April 12, 2011, 12:45:45 AM
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 I figured you might not have seen this buddy. Hoping you reply! Getting there Mike... Hoover himself writes a letter explaining the existence of 2 C2766 rifles... As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login - this is the letter from Hoover As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login - this is a great thread wxplaining the c2766 origins and ID possibilities... Finally, there are photos of the 4 different versions of the rifle with size and detail comparisons... the rifles are not the same.... Add to the fact that Oswald received a 36" rifle yet the one found was longer and heavier... the edforum post discusses this as well.... Evenmore interesting is they finally put a replica rifle in the replica paper bag... Amazing! The use of surrogate evidence when the actual evidence was available, repeatedly... is yet another brick in that wall... ...we don't need no education... " 
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April 12, 2011, 02:20:55 AM
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Getting there Mike... Hoover himself writes a letter explaining the existence of 2 C2766 rifles... As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login - this is the letter from Hoover No No No. Hoover writes about two rifles in existence, one Serial Number C2766 and the other 2766. These are not the same serial numbers at all. Furthermore there are two rifles in evidence, but the "2766" rifle is not one of them. As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login - this is a great thread wxplaining the c2766 origins and ID possibilities... Possibilities? Come on David. Really? Finally,
there are photos of the 4 different versions of the rifle with size and detail comparisons... the rifles are not the same....
Show me the photos......Im betting this is another "Jack White" analysis job.... Add to the fact that Oswald received a 36" rifle yet the one found was longer and heavier... the edforum post discusses this as well....
Two Ads from Kleins:   The top is the 40" with scope for $19.95 item number C20-750 The Bottom the 36" with scope for $19.95 item number C20-T750 Now. The first point I would like to make is that these two item numbers are off by one digit. The "T". So I think it is possible that the 40" model was shipped either by accident or on purpose. I mean think about this. IF Kleins was out of the 36" model they may well have sent the 40" which is slightly better, rather than loose the sale. It is also possible that it was sent accidentally. Even in recent years, I have made several orders from a car parts place called JC Whitney. They are notorious for getting me the wrong order! So I hardly think this is an impossibility. The rifle found in the TSBD had Oswalds fingerprints on it, and is in photos taken by Marina, that not one expert has proved to be faked. There is and can be little doubt that Oswald owned this C2766 rifle. Evenmore interesting is they finally put a replica rifle in the replica paper bag... Amazing!
The use of surrogate evidence when the actual evidence was available, repeatedly... is yet another brick in that wall...
Im not sure what you are getting at here, except to say that there would be no harm in using replicas as long as the viable evidential examples are in evidence. ...we don't need no education... " warrenxx
I agree your a great guy, and plenty smart. I just think you need some alternative perspective. Not everything is sinister. In order for this case to show anyone but Oswald was the guilty party, you have to claim every piece of evidence is faked forged or altered, and David, I just do not , and can not believe that you would think this. Defense: your honor we come to you today, to prove our client, Lee Harvey Oswald was framed. He was framed by parties who faked forged or altered the evidence in this case. Judge: Very well counsel present your evidence. Defense: Well your honor thats the tricky part, ya see we really have no evidence proving anything has been faked, forged or altered. Judge: I see Defense: But your honor we can show that there were two weapons with the same serial number proving that another weapon might be responsible. Judge: Proceed with your evidence. Defense: Your honor I would like to show you two rifles, one is in my possession and is numbered C2766, the other is not in my possession, but is documented as having the serial number 2766. Judge: Those numbers do not match. Defense: Well we know that your Honor, but they are pretty dog gone close! Judge: Your Kidding me right? Defense: No Sir! We claim that these numbers are close enough, and we move to have my client exonerated! Judge: And I move to have you, the counsel for the defense held for a 72 hour psychiatric evaluation......
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« Last Edit: April 12, 2011, 02:38:16 AM by Mike Williams »
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April 12, 2011, 08:27:07 PM
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Mike - Not interested in having this dance with you any longer... you want to believe that the lone nut Oswald had enough evidence against him in the course of 48 hours, that perfectly tied together, so be it... Hidel bought the rifle and pistol... Oswald has 2 wallets with Hidell in them... with one more left at home... no Hidll in that one sadly... how convenient. Hidell somehow gets a delivery at Oswald's PO Box yet the forms are gone, no one remembers a rifle being picked up or delivered and the rifle in evidence is not the one ordered... YOU want to believe they shipped the wrong rifle without saying a thing to an address that did not exist... but that's okay with you. YOU want to believe he made a paper bag at work and somehow gets it home to only bring it BACK to work with a rifle in it... because 1 person says so You want to believe Oswald killed Tippit because 1 very distraught person says so... yet her story does not hold water Sorry Mike but I think it is your perspective that needs a tweak... How would YOU set Oswald up? Wouldn't YOU make sure that weapons could be traced to him, as long as one didn't look too close? Wouldn't YOU make sure the evidence was sufficient to convict him on a cursury look? Wouldn't YOU pressure witnesses to adobt the "government line" ? 3 shots from the rear? Wouldn't YOU ignore witness after witness who had information in conflict with the pre-determined verdict? For you to keep saying that none of the evidence was faked, forged or altered is extremely naive of you... so many have shown time and again how the evidence was changed, how the chain of evidence is repeatedly broken, unexplainable or fabricated... For you or any LNer to say that no evidence for tampering with evidence, for creation of evidence, for fabrication or wholesale changing of evidence has been offered is pure  When you can explain Mexico City, the tapes, the photos and the other BS surrounding that visit, maybe you will see the situation for what it was... ever wonder why the WCR has no photo of Oswald from Mexico? From the 2 most watched/photographed embassies in that City?? None of it fits Mike... This forum, the Ed Forum, the Deep Politics Forum are all chock full of examples... CE399 being one of the best examples around... and yes.. as a coup d'etat one would expect the evidence against the patsy to be initially viewed as air tight... problem is, under closer scrutiny, it begins to fall apart... or check this out.... <![CDATA[As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
<a href="http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?action=login">Login</a>]]> Enough mention of frontal shots for you? Someone whould have talked? Of they would and did. The WCR is a complete lie... and has been known as such for over 40 years... the supposed evidence does not match the conclusions... in fact in most cases it completely reverses it. Since you prefer to defend it, without qualification or authentication, again - so be it. Point by point that fairy tale has been exposed for what it was and what it remains... a complete cover-up.
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April 12, 2011, 09:07:22 PM
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Mike - Not interested in having this dance with you any longer... you want to believe that the lone nut Oswald had enough evidence against him in the course of 48 hours, that perfectly tied together, so be it... Hidel bought the rifle and pistol... Oswald has 2 wallets with Hidell in them... with one more left at home... no Hidll in that one sadly... how convenient. Hidell somehow gets a delivery at Oswald's PO Box yet the forms are gone, no one remembers a rifle being picked up or delivered and the rifle in evidence is not the one ordered... YOU want to believe they shipped the wrong rifle without saying a thing to an address that did not exist... but that's okay with you. YOU want to believe he made a paper bag at work and somehow gets it home to only bring it BACK to work with a rifle in it... because 1 person says so You want to believe Oswald killed Tippit because 1 very distraught person says so... yet her story does not hold water Sorry Mike but I think it is your perspective that needs a tweak... How would YOU set Oswald up? Wouldn't YOU make sure that weapons could be traced to him, as long as one didn't look too close? Wouldn't YOU make sure the evidence was sufficient to convict him on a cursury look? Wouldn't YOU pressure witnesses to adobt the "government line" ? 3 shots from the rear? Wouldn't YOU ignore witness after witness who had information in conflict with the pre-determined verdict? For you to keep saying that none of the evidence was faked, forged or altered is extremely naive of you... so many have shown time and again how the evidence was changed, how the chain of evidence is repeatedly broken, unexplainable or fabricated... For you or any LNer to say that no evidence for tampering with evidence, for creation of evidence, for fabrication or wholesale changing of evidence has been offered is pure When you can explain Mexico City, the tapes, the photos and the other BS surrounding that visit, maybe you will see the situation for what it was... ever wonder why the WCR has no photo of Oswald from Mexico? From the 2 most watched/photographed embassies in that City?? None of it fits Mike... This forum, the Ed Forum, the Deep Politics Forum are all chock full of examples... CE399 being one of the best examples around... and yes.. as a coup d'etat one would expect the evidence against the patsy to be initially viewed as air tight... problem is, under closer scrutiny, it begins to fall apart... or check this out.... <![CDATA[As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
<a href="http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?action=register">Register</a> or <a href="http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/index.php?action=login">Login</a>]]> Enough mention of frontal shots for you? Someone whould have talked? Of they would and did. The WCR is a complete lie... and has been known as such for over 40 years... the supposed evidence does not match the conclusions... in fact in most cases it completely reverses it. Since you prefer to defend it, without qualification or authentication, again - so be it. Point by point that fairy tale has been exposed for what it was and what it remains... a complete cover-up. I so enjoy the CT "spin". The Brits can be so creative!
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"Life is not a problem to be solved. It is a mystery to be lived".
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April 12, 2011, 10:02:16 PM
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Mike -
Not interested in having this dance with you any longer... you want to believe that the lone nut Oswald had enough evidence against him in the course of 48 hours, that perfectly tied together, so be it...
I am glad that you realize the evidence was sufficient, and that it pointed right at Oswald. Because that really is the case. Oswald and Oswald alone committed this horrid crime. Hidel bought the rifle and pistol... Oswald has 2 wallets with Hidell in them... with one more left at home... no Hidll in that one sadly... how convenient. Hidell somehow gets a delivery at Oswald's PO Box yet the forms are gone, no one remembers a rifle being picked up or delivered and the rifle in evidence is not the one ordered...
The fact that Oswald used the alias Hidell is well documented. There are examples of his handwriting signing the Hidell name. Handwriting is as good as a fingerprint David. This is not even a debatable point, unless of course you contend that the documents are forged, and forged so perfectly they fooled a hand writing expert, unless of course you then contend that the handwriting expert was also in cahoots. Who cares if the receipt forms are gone? We have Oswalds Handwriting on the order form! We then have Oswalds photo with the friggin rifle he ordered! We then have Oswalds prints ON Oswalds rifle, where it was left in Oswalds place of employment. The same Oswald who has ZERO alibi for the time of the shooting. DO you really think the people at the post office would remember one package? Or one customer for that matter? Come on David, why would they recall the delivery of a rifle, they did not even know it WAS a rifle. To them it was just another schmuck picking up another package. YOU want to believe they shipped the wrong rifle without saying a thing to an address that did not exist... but that's okay with you.
What are you talking about an address that did not exist? Oswalds PO Box existed, this is silly. YOU want to believe he made a paper bag at work and somehow gets it home to only bring it BACK to work with a rifle in it... because 1 person says so
Bull. More than one person says so. Randal and Frazier, and there are no flaws in their story. They do guess the package is only 27" but as you were shown, there are plenty of indications it was longer. You want to believe Oswald killed Tippit because 1 very distraught person says so... yet her story does not hold water
Are you kidding me? If I am not mistaken Bill Brown has made a list of at least 5 people who picked him out of a line up, and they do hold water my friend. Ted Calloway alone would send Oswald to the chair. Sorry Mike but I think it is your perspective that needs a tweak... How would YOU set Oswald up?
My perspective is crystal clear. No one set him up, he committed the crime. Wouldn't YOU make sure that weapons could be traced to him, as long as one didn't look too close?
The rifle DOES trace to him. Lock stock and barrel! Wouldn't YOU make sure the evidence was sufficient to convict him on a cursury look?
The evidence to convict him is far more than cursory. Wouldn't YOU pressure witnesses to adobt the "government line" ? 3 shots from the rear?
There is no need to pressure anyone. Witness testimony is hopelessly unreliable. There was only 3 shots from the rear. Wouldn't YOU ignore witness after witness who had information in conflict with the pre-determined verdict? [/quote] First off you are operating under the bias that the evidence was "pre-determined". Thats bupkiss. Secondly how in the world do you think investigations work? In any case I have ever heard of, the physical evidence and the witness testimony is taken into account. You will of course have some witnesses that do not give reliable testimony, that is why you have to also weigh this against the physical evidence. For you to keep saying that none of the evidence was faked, forged or altered is extremely naive of you... so many have shown time and again how the evidence was changed, how the chain of evidence is repeatedly broken, unexplainable or fabricated...
Bull. I have not read of one single instance that holds water. And frankly my brother, you have yet to prove one instance of this to me. For you or any LNer to say that no evidence for tampering with evidence, for creation of evidence, for fabrication or wholesale changing of evidence has been offered is pure cop
When you can explain Mexico City, the tapes, the photos and the other BS surrounding that visit, maybe you will see the situation for what it was... ever wonder why the WCR has no photo of Oswald from Mexico? From the 2 most watched/photographed embassies in that City?? None of it fits Mike...
I dont know why, but you know what I do know? I know Oswald was in Mexico city. His signature is on the visa application AND the lady there that helped him gave him her number on a card. Guess where those same digits were written? In Oswalds notebook in Dallas, AND in Oswalds handwriting! This forum, the Ed Forum, the Deep Politics Forum are all chock full of examples... CE399 being one of the best examples around... and yes.. as a coup d'etat one would expect the evidence against the patsy to be initially viewed as air tight... problem is, under closer scrutiny, it begins to fall apart...
The scrutinize away, and prove to me that it falls apart. All that has happed so far David, is you have given me examples and I have clearly countered them. Your examples are what has fallen apart, as does ALL this kind of conspiracy stuff. or check this out....
Enough mention of frontal shots for you? Someone whould have talked? Of they would and did.
Wonderful. They can talk all they want to. The pure physics alone disprove the shot from the front scenario. The medical evidence does not support it. The Z film does not support it. There is nothing that supports the shot from the front. The WCR is a complete lie... and has been known as such for over 40 years... the supposed evidence does not match the conclusions... in fact in most cases it completely reverses it.
Since you prefer to defend it, without qualification or authentication, again - so be it. Point by point that fairy tale has been exposed for what it was and what it remains... a complete cover-up.
You mean like your claim that there were two rifles with the same serial number? One being C2766, the other being 2766? They are not the same. In point of fact close scrutiny is what I ask you to give your own evidence, because close scrutiny is what I have dont to destroy every point you have made. It is not the LNs who refuse to scrutinize, its just the opposite. The CT side makes the wildest claims, and when the LN side scrutinizes those claims they are exposed for what they really are, hogwash. I have yet to find one single CT claim that holds water, from you or from anyone else.
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April 13, 2011, 12:40:35 AM
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Mike - Why is it, when person after person talks about frontal shots... the shot to the throat, the shot to the "face", "temple", "right temple", "right side between temple and ear", "shots coming from right across from us", "shots coming from the front right (SS agents in the backup car)", "get men to that overpass and RR yard - find out what happened up there", "I was holding the back of his head on", "there was a huge hole in the right rear of his head", "the shots came from behind and to my right (Zappy)"... all that is, is pure BS to you??...  Not a single person who says this is right... not a single one of the almost 60 at the scene were right...  A fingerprint cannot be forged with the same ease as handwritting... and no, Oswald is not know for using Hidell in any other case but the rifle, pistol, and Money Orders... if you have an example of a previous use to establish a pattern of his using this alias, please provide.... Alek Hidell at that PO Box DID NOT EXIST... Mike... simple as that. As Holmes and the WCR states... Hidell was NOT listed to receive maill at this PO Box... for those purposes the address never existed.... The Bag again??? How again did he make it and get it home to begin with? If you cant have him making it and transporting it home... what other fairy tales can you conjer up for that bag??? Ted Calloway saw a man running (also loading a pistol I believe??)... he says he looked like Oswald... he identified him in a line-up of peers  (wasn't it Whaley who said you didn;t even need to look at the men, by the way he was yelling you could pick him out easily) Did Calloway see him shooting Tippit? Did anyone other than Markham.. who's claim winds up being similiar to Clemons' description? The rifle does NOT trace to him in any way... got the wrong rifle, the uncashed Money Order, the out of order sequence of the MO, the entire post office box situation, the fact that the COD charges for the pistol were never paid, nor were there any reciepts for delivery and pickup of firearms... but if YOU SAY SO... then it must be true, right? The fact you believe there was a real investigation is a huge problem to begin with... when the physical evidence, IN NO WAY RESEMBLES WHAT MANY, MANY WITNESSES RECOUNT, then a more detailed look at this physical evidence is called for.... and when this is done and we find problems at all stages with this evidence, one must look back to witnesses... what do the majority of witnesses say happened and how does that jive with the physical evidence... and once again... the case is only against Oswald... not a single other lead was "investigated"... this isn't like any other case you've heard of... The fact is you will not accept any evidence, period.... You state that him signing his visa application and getting the phone number of a woman... PLACES HIM IN MEXICO CITY?? Where do you come up with that leap Mike?? HOw do you find it so convenient to not even BOTHER with addressing the photos, tapes and declarations of Hoover to LBJ.... LHO was in Mexico City?? Prove it. Mike - you don't clearly counter anything... you make statements that have no basis in evidence... you say the rifle can be traced to Oswald... then trace it buddy...! Go over to the Ed Forum and deal with Gil Jesus' multi thread presentation of how and why the rifle and pistol have such problems... or refute Moyers paper on the rifle... Not a single peice of evidence in this case gives you cause to be concerned, to question... not a single example of evidence pointing away from Oswald holds water for you??? The serial numbers on the rifle as seen from different sources, are indeed different... When the last round was unchambered by Fritz, nothing fell out the bottom... in the films of Day and the rifle we see there is not clip in the rifle... There is not a single shred of evidence that puts the clip in the TSBD.... bummer, huh? It just "appears" with the rifle at Day's office.... I don't see how we can resolve any of this Mike... I am nowhere near as good at presenting the reasons there was a conspiracy and that Oswald did not do this, as people like Douglass, Weisberg, Lane, Lifton, Horne, Hancock, Wecht, Mantik, etc.... You can read As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login Presumed Guilty online... Free... As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login provides a great reading list.... is it that you just don't read alot of "WCR was wrong" literature? What essays/books/etc... do you expose yourself to in order to seek out the best information against your theories... ?? Better yet, read Manchester's book... he puts forth that Oswald did it... but also does not shy away from telling some of "it" like it was.... I have a tough time getting thru the Oswald parts since he is so anti-Oswald in his presentation (you should love it !!) but as a historical reference it's amazing. And I don't know about you but I read these books with the internet ready... I follow the sources and read the original materials when referenced... try that with the WCR sometime... should be interesting for you... in conclusion... a question... if this is so simple and such an easy read... why did it take the greatest supporter of the WCR, VB over 1700 pages and a CD of even more info to present his case??? How does this make "Oswald did it" easier to grasp for the almost 80% of the population who believe otherwise??
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April 13, 2011, 12:47:34 AM
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Super Member
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Mike - Why is it, when person after person talks about frontal shots... the shot to the throat, the shot to the "face", "temple", "right temple", "right side between temple and ear", "shots coming from right across from us", "shots coming from the front right (SS agents in the backup car)", "get men to that overpass and RR yard - find out what happened up there", "I was holding the back of his head on", "there was a huge hole in the right rear of his head", "the shots came from behind and to my right (Zappy)"... all that is, is pure BS to you??... Not a single person who says this is right... not a single one of the almost 60 at the scene were right... A fingerprint cannot be forged with the same ease as handwritting... and no, Oswald is not know for using Hidell in any other case but the rifle, pistol, and Money Orders... if you have an example of a previous use to establish a pattern of his using this alias, please provide.... Alek Hidell at that PO Box DID NOT EXIST... Mike... simple as that. As Holmes and the WCR states... Hidell was NOT listed to receive maill at this PO Box... for those purposes the address never existed.... The Bag again??? How again did he make it and get it home to begin with? If you cant have him making it and transporting it home... what other fairy tales can you conjer up for that bag??? Ted Calloway saw a man running (also loading a pistol I believe??)... he says he looked like Oswald... he identified him in a line-up of peers (wasn't it Whaley who said you didn;t even need to look at the men, by the way he was yelling you could pick him out easily) Did Calloway see him shooting Tippit? Did anyone other than Markham.. who's claim winds up being similiar to Clemons' description? The rifle does NOT trace to him in any way... got the wrong rifle, the uncashed Money Order, the out of order sequence of the MO, the entire post office box situation, the fact that the COD charges for the pistol were never paid, nor were there any reciepts for delivery and pickup of firearms... but if YOU SAY SO... then it must be true, right? The fact you believe there was a real investigation is a huge problem to begin with... when the physical evidence, IN NO WAY RESEMBLES WHAT MANY, MANY WITNESSES RECOUNT, then a more detailed look at this physical evidence is called for.... and when this is done and we find problems at all stages with this evidence, one must look back to witnesses... what do the majority of witnesses say happened and how does that jive with the physical evidence... and once again... the case is only against Oswald... not a single other lead was "investigated"... this isn't like any other case you've heard of... The fact is you will not accept any evidence, period.... You state that him signing his visa application and getting the phone number of a woman... PLACES HIM IN MEXICO CITY?? Where do you come up with that leap Mike?? HOw do you find it so convenient to not even BOTHER with addressing the photos, tapes and declarations of Hoover to LBJ.... LHO was in Mexico City?? Prove it. Mike - you don't clearly counter anything... you make statements that have no basis in evidence... you say the rifle can be traced to Oswald... then trace it buddy...! Go over to the Ed Forum and deal with Gil Jesus' multi thread presentation of how and why the rifle and pistol have such problems... or refute Moyers paper on the rifle... Not a single peice of evidence in this case gives you cause to be concerned, to question... not a single example of evidence pointing away from Oswald holds water for you??? The serial numbers on the rifle as seen from different sources, are indeed different... When the last round was unchambered by Fritz, nothing fell out the bottom... in the films of Day and the rifle we see there is not clip in the rifle... There is not a single shred of evidence that puts the clip in the TSBD.... bummer, huh? It just "appears" with the rifle at Day's office.... I don't see how we can resolve any of this Mike... I am nowhere near as good at presenting the reasons there was a conspiracy and that Oswald did not do this, as people like Douglass, Weisberg, Lane, Lifton, Horne, Hancock, Wecht, Mantik, etc.... You can read As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login Presumed Guilty online... Free... As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login provides a great reading list.... is it that you just don't read alot of "WCR was wrong" literature? What essays/books/etc... do you expose yourself to in order to seek out the best information against your theories... ?? Better yet, read Manchester's book... he puts forth that Oswald did it... but also does not shy away from telling some of "it" like it was.... I have a tough time getting thru the Oswald parts since he is so anti-Oswald in his presentation (you should love it !!) but as a historical reference it's amazing. And I don't know about you but I read these books with the internet ready... I follow the sources and read the original materials when referenced... try that with the WCR sometime... should be interesting for you... in conclusion... a question... if this is so simple and such an easy read... why did it take the greatest supporter of the WCR, VB over 1700 pages and a CD of even more info to present his case??? How does this make "Oswald did it" easier to grasp for the almost 80% of the population who believe otherwise?? Thats a simple answer David. It took VB all those years to single dispel 47 years of CT crap. I offer you evidence and facts, you return speculation. I offer a document, you claim its forged. I offer you a film of the shooting and explain why the laws of physics reject the front shot. You claim is faked. Come on man is there ANYTHING you do not believe is faked forged or altered? How many people do you think were in on this thing? The whole state of Texas, and the entire Federal Government?
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April 13, 2011, 01:08:57 AM
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Super Member
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Mike -
Why is it, when person after person talks about frontal shots... the shot to the throat, the shot to the "face", "temple", "right temple", "right side between temple and ear", "shots coming from right across from us", "shots coming from the front right (SS agents in the backup car)", "get men to that overpass and RR yard - find out what happened up there", "I was holding the back of his head on", "there was a huge hole in the right rear of his head", "the shots came from behind and to my right (Zappy)"...
all that is, is pure BS to you??... Not a single person who says this is right... not a single one of the almost 60 at the scene were right...
Then you are saying you believe that all the xrays and Z film as well as all the autopsy photos are faked forged or altered? Because that IS what it takes to prove a front head shot. Period. A fingerprint cannot be forged with the same ease as handwritting... and no, Oswald is not know for using Hidell in any other case but the rifle, pistol, and Money Orders... if you have an example of a previous use to establish a pattern of his using this alias, please provide....
So all the fingerprint and handwriting evidence is faked forged or altered as well? Alek Hidell at that PO Box DID NOT EXIST... Mike... simple as that. As Holmes and the WCR states... Hidell was NOT listed to receive maill at this PO Box... for those purposes the address never existed....
And has been proven over and over this would not have stopped him from getting the package.....I have had a PO Box and I got stuff with other peoples names all the time....so what? The Bag again??? How again did he make it and get it home to begin with? If you cant have him making it and transporting it home... what other fairy tales can you conjer up for that bag???
Better yet how did the DPD make it up? It was photographed 1 hour after the assassination, being removed from the building, before Randal and Frazier were even interviewed! It has his prints on it. Are Randal and Frazier part of the plot too, even though they had already removed the bag before talking to wither of them? Are Oswalds prints on that bag planted and forged? Ted Calloway saw a man running (also loading a pistol I believe??)... he says he looked like Oswald... he identified him in a line-up of peers rofl (wasn't it Whaley who said you didn;t even need to look at the men, by the way he was yelling you could pick him out easily)
Did Calloway see him shooting Tippit? Did anyone other than Markham.. who's claim winds up being similiar to Clemons' description?
He did not say he looked like Oswald he said it WAS Oswald. Period. Just like the other 5. Oh wait, are they all in on it too? Part of the plot....Jesus this thing must have had one hell of a payroll..... The rifle does NOT trace to him in any way... got the wrong rifle, the uncashed Money Order, the out of order sequence of the MO, the entire post office box situation, the fact that the COD charges for the pistol were never paid, nor were there any reciepts for delivery and pickup of firearms... but if YOU SAY SO... then it must be true, right?
And YET! A rifle appears as if from magic with Oswalds fingerprints on it! AND I suppose Jesus just miracled the same rifle into the back yard photos that Marina admits taking????? So NOW Marina is in on it, and all the people at the post office and those who planted that rifle! The fact you believe there was a real investigation is a huge problem to begin with... when the physical evidence, IN NO WAY RESEMBLES WHAT MANY, MANY WITNESSES RECOUNT, then a more detailed look at this physical evidence is called for.... and when this is done and we find problems at all stages with this evidence, one must look back to witnesses... what do the majority of witnesses say happened and how does that jive with the physical evidence... and once again... the case is only against Oswald... not a single other lead was "investigated"... this isn't like any other case you've heard of...
The physical evidence supports the case 100%. Why should they have investigated anything else....all leads point to one man.....LHO. The fact is you will not accept any evidence, period....
You state that him signing his visa application and getting the phone number of a woman... PLACES HIM IN MEXICO CITY?? Where do you come up with that leap Mike??
HOw do you find it so convenient to not even BOTHER with addressing the photos, tapes and declarations of Hoover to LBJ.... LHO was in Mexico City?? Prove it.
Prove he was not. The prosecution has plenty of evidence. You prove Oswald was not there. Mike -
you don't clearly counter anything... you make statements that have no basis in evidence... you say the rifle can be traced to Oswald... then trace it buddy...!
Go over to the Ed Forum and deal with Gil Jesus' multi thread presentation of how and why the rifle and pistol have such problems... or refute Moyers paper on the rifle...
Gil Jesus, are you kidding me? Seriously. Gil Jesus is about the most idiotic person I have ever met who researches this case. You explain to me how Oswalds rifle got to the depository with his fingerprints on it.....explain the back yard photos. Explain how the chain of evidence for the pistol is ROCK solid. Hill does this alone! He marked it, when he first received it, and identified it in his testimony. Oh hell....I bet Hill was in on it too! Not a single peice of evidence in this case gives you cause to be concerned, to question... not a single example of evidence pointing away from Oswald holds water for you???
Nothing significant. The serial numbers on the rifle as seen from different sources, are indeed different...
When the last round was unchambered by Fritz, nothing fell out the bottom... in the films of Day and the rifle we see there is not clip in the rifle...
There is not a single shred of evidence that puts the clip in the TSBD.... bummer, huh? It just "appears" with the rifle at Day's office....
Well by golly they were different. Good Lord. Buddy. Please. Dont play the rifle game with me. For one the magazine does not fall out when the last round is ejected, it falls out when the last round is chambered. Also, if you owned one, you would know the damn clips are spring steel in nature and have a habit of sticking in the weapon. Does not appear to be in the depository?  Um......there is it. I don't see how we can resolve any of this Mike... I am nowhere near as good at presenting the reasons there was a conspiracy and that Oswald did not do this, as people like Douglass, Weisberg, Lane, Lifton, Horne, Hancock, Wecht, Mantik, etc.... You can read As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login Presumed Guilty online... Free... Frankly none of them are that good at doing anything other than hoodwinking those who know little about the facts. As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login provides a great reading list.... is it that you just don't read alot of "WCR was wrong" literature? What essays/books/etc... do you expose yourself to in order to seek out the best information against your theories... ?? Better yet, read Manchester's book... he puts forth that Oswald did it... but also does not shy away from telling some of "it" like it was.... I have a tough time getting thru the Oswald parts since he is so anti-Oswald in his presentation (you should love it !!) but as a historical reference it's amazing. I have read more conspiracy books than I have LN books. I started as a hard core CT David. Then I began looking into the facts, and guess what the CT crap falls apart. EVERYTIME. And I don't know about you but I read these books with the internet ready... I follow the sources and read the original materials when referenced... try that with the WCR sometime... should be interesting for you...
in conclusion... a question... if this is so simple and such an easy read... why did it take the greatest supporter of the WCR, VB over 1700 pages and a CD of even more info to present his case???
How does this make "Oswald did it" easier to grasp for the almost 80% of the population who believe otherwise??
80% of the public only knows what the conspiracy hype says with all these idiotic books. How many do you think really waded through the WC and the actual real evidence?
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April 13, 2011, 01:37:53 AM
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Thats a simple answer David. It took VB all those years to single dispel 47 years of CT crap. I offer you evidence and facts, you return speculation. Just speculation about the evidence you provide little or no authentication for Mike... your evidence and facts need corroboration and you offer a pitiful amount if any at all...I offer a document, you claim its forged. Please be specific... what are you referring to the Hidell order form? the Money Order? did you know that E Howard Hunt was heavily involved with forging documents?
I can support forgery just as easily as you can prove authenticity... now what? and would it surprise you so much to find out how Oswald was involved with uncovering mail order rifle scams and misconduct? Oh, right... Oswald never did work for the FBI...  I offer you a film of the shooting and explain why the laws of physics reject the front shot. You claim is faked. Never said a word about any film to you... and the laws of physics suggest that the shot that killed him as seen in the films threw him backward and to the left.... Jackie, "From the front there was nothing... " and you never have explained how a FMJ 6.5mm round BLOWS HIS HEAD OFF and basically disintegrates while CE399 smashes bone in a number of places and is virtually pristine... doesn't sound like the same bullets to me??? or the FMJ bullet that strikes the curb near Tague yet leaves no copper, only lead....Come on man is there ANYTHING you do not believe is faked forged or altered? With regards to the life and times of Lee Harvey Oswald... not much... sorry... just as it took VB years to create his tome... it took years to create Oswald the patsy... that's the difference between decent planners and great planners... a truly great plan takes years and is nearly impossible to unravel - it's as if you've never read a book about the CIA in your entire life Mike... as if you've completely dismissed 50 years of Cold War history.... How many people do you think were in on this thing? The whole state of Texas, and the entire Federal Government? We're both fairly rational people... how we both can look at the different aspects of the case and see such different things is quite amazing... and the intention all along... when I came across the concept that the 11:55 thru 12:30 timeline was more important than we know I realized that Oswald HAD to be on a timelineof his own of some sort... he HAD to have a plan if he - alone - did this. And this plan would be fairly easy to comprehend... but it's not.
If he has the rifle and you (the WCR) say he brought it to work in a paper bag... he HAD to decide he needed a bag and HAD to find a way to make one... when the paper was matched we find out exactly WHERE it had to have been made and from what materials and in what process... WHEN DID OSWALD DO THIS MIKE???? How much earlier than thursday does he decide he will make a paper bag, bring it home, get the rifle into the bag and bring it back to work...
Once you figure out how and when he made the bag... you have to get it home.... get the rifle into it and then get it back... good luck with that Mike -
What other parts of his plan are in conflict with the way it supposedly happened??
Williams is up on the 6th floor until 12:15-12:18... Does Oswald know this? How would he deal with men still on the 6th floor watching the parade?? Kill them too??
So Mike... take me thru his thoughts... He gets to work and somehow sneaks the rifle in and hides it (you'll show us how, right?)
He is upstairs, at the sniper's nest at 11:55... right?
The limo could be coming by within 10-20 minutes according to reports, newspaper, etc...
He's ALONE...
So what's he do? How does his plan come together? His plan is to LEAVE the one place he has planned to be so he can shoot the president, and go 4-5 flights down and eat lunch....
REALLY?? This is what you and the other LNers are supposing is his plan based on his behavior prior to the 12:30 shooting time... which is not HIS shooting time, but THE shooting time... Oswald has no real idea when the limo is passing by....
If this is not his plan, then please post one that makes any sense given the evidence.... please start with WHEN he decides to kill Kennedy... it would HAVE to be after he comes to work monday... otherwise why leave the rifle at home, right? So tell me how it came together for him and what he does in the days, hours, minutes before the deed to support your theory...
thanks
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April 13, 2011, 02:15:46 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 9143
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My original Statements in Blue
Davids Replies in red
My reply is green
Thats a simple answer David. It took VB all those years to single dispel 47 years of CT crap.
I offer you evidence and facts, you return speculation.
Just speculation about the evidence you provide little or no authentication for Mike... your evidence and facts need corroboration and you offer a pitiful amount if any at all...
What kind of authentication do you need? You have testimony from witnesses, and you have physical evidence. What exactly are you looking for? What more could you possibly want?
I suspect it would never be enough, as the evidence as it stands, in your opinion, has all been forged faked or altered.
I offer a document, you claim its forged.
Please be specific... what are you referring to the Hidell order form? the Money Order? did you know that E Howard Hunt was heavily involved with forging documents?
I can support forgery just as easily as you can prove authenticity... now what? and would it surprise you so much to find out how Oswald was involved with uncovering mail order rifle scams and misconduct? Oh, right... Oswald never did work for the FBI... sheeshxx
Can you prove Oswald had anything to do with Hunt? Can you prove Hunt forged any of the Oswald papers? Of course not. There is no evidence Oswald worked for the FBI....Jesus....
You an not support forgery, and if you can please show us, with proof, of what has been forged.
I offer you a film of the shooting and explain why the laws of physics reject the front shot. You claim is faked.
Never said a word about any film to you... and the laws of physics suggest that the shot that killed him as seen in the films threw him backward and to the left.... Jackie, "From the front there was nothing... " and you never have explained how a FMJ 6.5mm round BLOWS HIS HEAD OFF and basically disintegrates while CE399 smashes bone in a number of places and is virtually pristine... doesn't sound like the same bullets to me??? or the FMJ bullet that strikes the curb near Tague yet leaves no copper, only lead....
Wow! David the laws of physics suggest no such thing. If you had any idea how this worked, you would soon realize that the MC bullet transferred no more than 3-5 ft lbs of energy to JFK. This is no where near enough energy to throw him back. The average human punch is 110 ftlbs.
You dont have to take my word for it. Read what Duncan McPherson has to say on the matter, hes only the father of wound ballistics.
Now your next question is simple.
The bullet that hit the head of JFK was at near full velocity 2165 feet per second. The bullet that created the SBT has its first encounter with hard bone when it hit the wrist at about half that velocity. Now it is true that it hit the end of the rib first, however the ends of ribs are rather soft, and the bullet hit this a glancing blow, and not a direct hit at all. I suspect this rib is what flattened the side of the bullet slightly.
This is also basic wound ballistics knowledge.
The Tague bullet obviously hit something else first, and sent the lead core to the curb near Tague. This very well could have been from the head shot itself. I can show you the numbers if you like, but by now I think you know that I would not tell you something I could not support.
Come on man is there ANYTHING you do not believe is faked forged or altered?
With regards to the life and times of Lee Harvey Oswald... not much... sorry... just as it took VB years to create his tome... it took years to create Oswald the patsy... that's the difference between decent planners and great planners... a truly great plan takes years and is nearly impossible to unravel - it's as if you've never read a book about the CIA in your entire life Mike... as if you've completely dismissed 50 years of Cold War history....
So you admit that you believe all the evidence is forged. Nothing is ever done to perfection David, and yet, not one shred of evidence exists of Oswalds ties to the FBI CIA DEA or the LMNOP
How many people do you think were in on this thing? The whole state of Texas, and the entire Federal Government?
We're both fairly rational people... how we both can look at the different aspects of the case and see such different things is quite amazing... and the intention all along... when I came across the concept that the 11:55 thru 12:30 timeline was more important than we know I realized that Oswald HAD to be on a timelineof his own of some sort... he HAD to have a plan if he - alone - did this. And this plan would be fairly easy to comprehend... but it's not.
Yes David it is.
I will take MY rifle to work in a bag.
I will shoot JFK as he passes.
Thats it. The whole plan.
I kow it would give us a sense of security to believe otherwise, but it really is just that simple.
David goes alone here:
If he has the rifle and you (the WCR) say he brought it to work in a paper bag... he HAD to decide he needed a bag and HAD to find a way to make one... when the paper was matched we find out exactly WHERE it had to have been made and from what materials and in what process... WHEN DID OSWALD DO THIS MIKE???? How much earlier than thursday does he decide he will make a paper bag, bring it home, get the rifle into the bag and bring it back to work...
Maybe he did this Thursday. Maybe he was contemplating the crime then. There are tons of earmarks that show this was poorly planned. Perhaps on Thursday night, when Marina rejected him, he decided to do this. Oswald never did handle rejection very well, there are tons of documented examples of this as well.
The point is he did make a bag, and he did transport a rifle in it. Witnesses saw him. The bag evidence is solid David. Hell we even have pictures of it BEFORE we even knew it WAS evidence. It has his prints on it. What more could you possibly want?
Once you figure out how and when he made the bag... you have to get it home.... get the rifle into it and then get it back... good luck with that Mike -
I dont have to do any of that David Randal and Frazier do that for me easily, and not a jury in the world would not see that.
What other parts of his plan are in conflict with the way it supposedly happened??
No idea what you mean here?
Williams is up on the 6th floor until 12:15-12:18... Does Oswald know this? How would he deal with men still on the 6th floor watching the parade?? Kill them too??
He did not have to deal with them, they left before the parade got there....
So Mike... take me thru his thoughts... He gets to work and somehow sneaks the rifle in and hides it (you'll show us how, right?)
He is upstairs, at the sniper's nest at 11:55... right?
The limo could be coming by within 10-20 minutes according to reports, newspaper, etc...
He's ALONE...
So what's he do? How does his plan come together? His plan is to LEAVE the one place he has planned to be so he can shoot the president, and go 4-5 flights down and eat lunch....
He sneaks the rifle in in the bag, this is well established.
He goes up, assembles the rifle and waits.
He shoots.
He exits the building.
Not a difficult plan.
REALLY?? This is what you and the other LNers are supposing is his plan based on his behavior prior to the 12:30 shooting time... which is not HIS shooting time, but THE shooting time... Oswald has no real idea when the limo is passing by....
He does know that at the time he is preparing the limo has not passed. It is a target of opportunity.
If this is not his plan, then please post one that makes any sense given the evidence.... please start with WHEN he decides to kill Kennedy... it would HAVE to be after he comes to work monday... otherwise why leave the rifle at home, right? So tell me how it came together for him and what he does in the days, hours, minutes before the deed to support your theory...
thanks
I already did just that. It was a spontaneous act, by a man prone to such things. There was no epic and huge plan, it was simple, and apparently very effective.
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