 Ian Lloyd |
 September 23, 2008, 08:42:48 AM
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Group: Guest
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Been reading about CE543 the "dented lip casing" in, amongst other areas, Josiah Thompson's Six Seconds in Dallas (SSID). It would appear that there is compelling evidence to indicate that CE543, a spent cartridge case found on the floor of the 6th floor of the TSBD, could not have been fired from "Oswald's" rifle (CE139) on 22nd November 1963. The evidence lies in the markings found on the casing which would tend to indicate that it wasn't loaded into CE139 and subsequently fired from it. This raises a few questions in my mind regarding why it was found on the 6th floor...
1. Did someone plant it there? If so, why?
2. Was it already in CE139 when it was taken into the TSBD? If so, why would a spent shell be left in the weapon - safety?
3. Did the shooter accidentally drop it there?
4. Did the shooter deliberately drop it there? If so, why?
(In response to 4 above, it may be that, if the casing was left in the weapon as in 2, prior to the shooting, maybe the shooter operated the bolt and ejected it during preparation?)
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« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 08:29:11 AM by Ian Lloyd »
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October 29, 2010, 12:57:39 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 6711
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Been reading about CE543 the "dented lip casing" in, amongst other areas, Josiah Thompson's Six Seconds in Dallas (SSID). It would appear that there is compelling evidence to indicate that CE543, a spent cartridge case found on the floor of the 6th floor of the TSBD, could not have been fired from "Oswald's" rifle (CE139) on 22nd November 1963. The evidence lies in the markings found on the casing which would tend to indicate that it wasn't loaded into CE139 and subsequently fired from it. This raises a few questions in my mind regarding why it was found on the 6th floor...
1. Did someone plant it there? If so, why?
2. Was it already in CE139 when it was taken into the TSBD? If so, why would a spent shell be left in the weapon - safety?
3. Did the shooter accidentally drop it there?
4. Did the shooter deliberately drop it there? If so, why?
(In response to 4 above, it may be that, if the casing was left in the weapon as in 2, prior to the shooting, maybe the shooter operated the bolt and ejected it during preparation?)
This is a great topic and a great post -- no wonder NO LNer responded to it! As you may know, I believe LHO was the shooter and most likely the only shooter. To indicate my open-mindedness, how about this? The Carcano clip was designed to stay in the magazine of the rifle while the bullets were fired. It is ejected when the last bullet is pushed into the breech by the bolt-action mechanism -- -- not when the last bullet is fired. The rifle was found with one "live" bullet in the breech and the clip still in the gun. I'm no firearms expert - but I find this "interesting". Did Oswald pick up the clip and re-insert it in the gun? Did the police place the clip back in the gun? Did the clip stay in the gun due to some fault in that rifle? Anyone have a solution to this puzzle?
The rifle was found with one "live" bullet in the breech and the clip still in the gun.I have debated this topic for three years at ACJ to no avail! Sylvia Meagher noted that there was NO MENTION of a clip in any of the WC volumes when she INDEXED them for us in 1967. There is NONE of the following in regards to the clip: 1) NO photos of the clip in the rifle in situ! The closest we get is a picture of Lt. Day leaving the TSBD 30 minutes later with a clip hanging out. 2) There is NO mention of a clip in any of police officer's reports. 3) There is NO clip inventoried on the SN inventory sheet! The WC claimed the clip jammed inside the Carcano so that is why no one saw it, but Lt. Day was required by CSU standard to remove the ammo and clip/magazine before processing it for prints. Furthermore, the clip now in the Archives is in MINT condition which makes the WC's comment of it being "crimped" either false or shows they have submitted ANOTHER clip into evidence!
Did Oswald pick up the clip and re-insert it in the gun?No is the answer and we know this because there were NO LHO fingerprints on the clip! Did the police place the clip back in the gun?
Did the clip stay in the gun due to some fault in that rifle?
Anyone have a solution to this puzzle? I let folks decide for themselves, but here is what we know. NO clip was photographed inside the rifle in situ, NO clip was inventoried at the SN and NO clip was mentioned or seen by any of the cops on the seen. Lt. Day was required to remove the clip (this means he had to check to see if one was inside the rifle) along with the ammo before performing his CSU duties. So take all this into account and then consider when he left the TSBD with it 30 minutes later on it had a clip inside it!The police photo shows the clip still in the rifle in situ. As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
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October 29, 2010, 11:16:29 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 9048
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Been reading about CE543 the "dented lip casing" in, amongst other areas, Josiah Thompson's Six Seconds in Dallas (SSID). It would appear that there is compelling evidence to indicate that CE543, a spent cartridge case found on the floor of the 6th floor of the TSBD, could not have been fired from "Oswald's" rifle (CE139) on 22nd November 1963. The evidence lies in the markings found on the casing which would tend to indicate that it wasn't loaded into CE139 and subsequently fired from it. This raises a few questions in my mind regarding why it was found on the 6th floor...
1. Did someone plant it there? If so, why?
2. Was it already in CE139 when it was taken into the TSBD? If so, why would a spent shell be left in the weapon - safety?
3. Did the shooter accidentally drop it there?
4. Did the shooter deliberately drop it there? If so, why?
(In response to 4 above, it may be that, if the casing was left in the weapon as in 2, prior to the shooting, maybe the shooter operated the bolt and ejected it during preparation?)
This is a great topic and a great post -- no wonder NO LNer responded to it! As you may know, I believe LHO was the shooter and most likely the only shooter. To indicate my open-mindedness, how about this? The Carcano clip was designed to stay in the magazine of the rifle while the bullets were fired. It is ejected when the last bullet is pushed into the breech by the bolt-action mechanism -- -- not when the last bullet is fired. The rifle was found with one "live" bullet in the breech and the clip still in the gun. I'm no firearms expert - but I find this "interesting". Did Oswald pick up the clip and re-insert it in the gun? Did the police place the clip back in the gun? Did the clip stay in the gun due to some fault in that rifle? Anyone have a solution to this puzzle?
The rifle was found with one "live" bullet in the breech and the clip still in the gun.I have debated this topic for three years at ACJ to no avail! Sylvia Meagher noted that there was NO MENTION of a clip in any of the WC volumes when she INDEXED them for us in 1967. There is NONE of the following in regards to the clip: 1) NO photos of the clip in the rifle in situ! The closest we get is a picture of Lt. Day leaving the TSBD 30 minutes later with a clip hanging out. 2) There is NO mention of a clip in any of police officer's reports. 3) There is NO clip inventoried on the SN inventory sheet! The WC claimed the clip jammed inside the Carcano so that is why no one saw it, but Lt. Day was required by CSU standard to remove the ammo and clip/magazine before processing it for prints. Furthermore, the clip now in the Archives is in MINT condition which makes the WC's comment of it being "crimped" either false or shows they have submitted ANOTHER clip into evidence!
Did Oswald pick up the clip and re-insert it in the gun?No is the answer and we know this because there were NO LHO fingerprints on the clip! Did the police place the clip back in the gun?
Did the clip stay in the gun due to some fault in that rifle?
Anyone have a solution to this puzzle? I let folks decide for themselves, but here is what we know. NO clip was photographed inside the rifle in situ, NO clip was inventoried at the SN and NO clip was mentioned or seen by any of the cops on the seen. Lt. Day was required to remove the clip (this means he had to check to see if one was inside the rifle) along with the ammo before performing his CSU duties. So take all this into account and then consider when he left the TSBD with it 30 minutes later on it had a clip inside it!The police photo shows the clip still in the rifle in situ. As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login- Rob Caprio Great! CE-74 (Caprio Error #74)
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"The TRUTH doesn't require anyone's belief." - Dale Myers
"The human mind craves a mystery more than it loves the truth." - Dan Rather
"Reason does not always appeal to unreasonable men." - John F. Kennedy
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November 02, 2010, 07:11:47 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 8302
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If there was a late "addition" of the "clip" by plotters, where did it come from -- if not the Carcano rifle?
Why is that our problem to figure out? Here is the bottom line for you -- ONLY two rifles in that time period used a clip system still and they were the M-1 (American) rifle and the Carcano. The M-1 ejected the clip when the last shot was fired, and the Carcano's clip fell out when the last shot was chambered. The folks working on the conspiracy (and I don't know who this was per se, but one would have to think that Fritz was invovled) left the Carcano in the way it should be -- last shot chambered -- clip gone. But others who only knew of the M-1 had to say, "Hey wait a minute, the clip shouldn't be gone UNTIL the last shot is fired!" So someone got one from somewhere. I won't speculate on who or where as that is not my concern. The FACT is there is NO evidence showing the rifle had a clip in situ and yet 30 minutes later it did have one. Use your own imagination on that one.
Rob,
You just "did" speculate --
-- that Fritz tampered with evidence.
You did speculate --
-- about "folks working on the conspiracy"
You did "speculate"
-- about "others" --
-- and "someone".
See how silly you appear when you do the very same thing you attribute to others?
Regards,
Ross
PS: What do you think of my avatar?
Rob,
You just "did" speculate --
-- that Fritz tampered with evidence.Wrong -- this is called an OPINION. I believe based on the lies Fritz told he was involved (it would make sense given his level of standing too), but nowhere did I say HE WENT and got the clip to put into the rifle. Reading and comprehension issues seem to run rampant in the WC supporters camp. You did speculate --
-- about "folks working on the conspiracy"Saying there was a conspiracy is NOT speculation and if you would bother to read the 26 volumes you would know this! I did not name anyone outside of Fritz and even then I said "he could have been". That is NOT a declarative statement. You did "speculate"
-- about "others" --
-- and "someone".Note to everyone if you use the words "others" and "someone" YOU ARE SPECULATING according to Ross! 
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A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
"Benavides- Saw Oswald kill Tippit, picked him out of a lineup." - Brian "Doesn't Know His Rear From His Back" Walker
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November 02, 2010, 07:13:24 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 8302
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Hello Ian,
Just wanted to add, there was also a second rifle found on the sixth floor: A German high powered 7.65 Mauser rifle. Strangely enough, while police reported this weapon, all their reports were soon changed, only documenting the Italian rifle supposedly owned by Oswald.
- Rob McCoy
You are confused. That is not about a SECOND rifle. It is supposedly the one and only rifle found on the sixth floor. But the cop made a mistake when he called it a Mauser. And he admitted it was a simple mistake. His "mistake" doesn't explain away his AFFIDAVIT he signed on 11/23/63 saying it was a Mauser. Nice try Tony.
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November 02, 2010, 07:14:46 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 8302
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Been reading about CE543 the "dented lip casing" in, amongst other areas, Josiah Thompson's Six Seconds in Dallas (SSID). It would appear that there is compelling evidence to indicate that CE543, a spent cartridge case found on the floor of the 6th floor of the TSBD, could not have been fired from "Oswald's" rifle (CE139) on 22nd November 1963. The evidence lies in the markings found on the casing which would tend to indicate that it wasn't loaded into CE139 and subsequently fired from it. This raises a few questions in my mind regarding why it was found on the 6th floor...
1. Did someone plant it there? If so, why?
2. Was it already in CE139 when it was taken into the TSBD? If so, why would a spent shell be left in the weapon - safety?
3. Did the shooter accidentally drop it there?
4. Did the shooter deliberately drop it there? If so, why?
(In response to 4 above, it may be that, if the casing was left in the weapon as in 2, prior to the shooting, maybe the shooter operated the bolt and ejected it during preparation?)
This is a great topic and a great post -- no wonder NO LNer responded to it! As you may know, I believe LHO was the shooter and most likely the only shooter. To indicate my open-mindedness, how about this? The Carcano clip was designed to stay in the magazine of the rifle while the bullets were fired. It is ejected when the last bullet is pushed into the breech by the bolt-action mechanism -- -- not when the last bullet is fired. The rifle was found with one "live" bullet in the breech and the clip still in the gun. I'm no firearms expert - but I find this "interesting". Did Oswald pick up the clip and re-insert it in the gun? Did the police place the clip back in the gun? Did the clip stay in the gun due to some fault in that rifle? Anyone have a solution to this puzzle? This is extremely old and tiresome. On that model the magazine sometimes does not fall out automatically. In fact I believe that in some photos we can see where it started to fall out. Then you can present evidence showing it was in the rifle when it was discovered, right?
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November 02, 2010, 07:17:23 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 8302
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Been reading about CE543 the "dented lip casing" in, amongst other areas, Josiah Thompson's Six Seconds in Dallas (SSID). It would appear that there is compelling evidence to indicate that CE543, a spent cartridge case found on the floor of the 6th floor of the TSBD, could not have been fired from "Oswald's" rifle (CE139) on 22nd November 1963. The evidence lies in the markings found on the casing which would tend to indicate that it wasn't loaded into CE139 and subsequently fired from it. This raises a few questions in my mind regarding why it was found on the 6th floor...
1. Did someone plant it there? If so, why?
2. Was it already in CE139 when it was taken into the TSBD? If so, why would a spent shell be left in the weapon - safety?
3. Did the shooter accidentally drop it there?
4. Did the shooter deliberately drop it there? If so, why?
(In response to 4 above, it may be that, if the casing was left in the weapon as in 2, prior to the shooting, maybe the shooter operated the bolt and ejected it during preparation?)
This is a great topic and a great post -- no wonder NO LNer responded to it! As you may know, I believe LHO was the shooter and most likely the only shooter. To indicate my open-mindedness, how about this? The Carcano clip was designed to stay in the magazine of the rifle while the bullets were fired. It is ejected when the last bullet is pushed into the breech by the bolt-action mechanism -- -- not when the last bullet is fired. The rifle was found with one "live" bullet in the breech and the clip still in the gun. I'm no firearms expert - but I find this "interesting". Did Oswald pick up the clip and re-insert it in the gun? Did the police place the clip back in the gun? Did the clip stay in the gun due to some fault in that rifle? Anyone have a solution to this puzzle?
The rifle was found with one "live" bullet in the breech and the clip still in the gun.I have debated this topic for three years at ACJ to no avail! Sylvia Meagher noted that there was NO MENTION of a clip in any of the WC volumes when she INDEXED them for us in 1967. There is NONE of the following in regards to the clip: 1) NO photos of the clip in the rifle in situ! The closest we get is a picture of Lt. Day leaving the TSBD 30 minutes later with a clip hanging out. 2) There is NO mention of a clip in any of police officer's reports. 3) There is NO clip inventoried on the SN inventory sheet! The WC claimed the clip jammed inside the Carcano so that is why no one saw it, but Lt. Day was required by CSU standard to remove the ammo and clip/magazine before processing it for prints. Furthermore, the clip now in the Archives is in MINT condition which makes the WC's comment of it being "crimped" either false or shows they have submitted ANOTHER clip into evidence!
Did Oswald pick up the clip and re-insert it in the gun?No is the answer and we know this because there were NO LHO fingerprints on the clip! Did the police place the clip back in the gun?
Did the clip stay in the gun due to some fault in that rifle?
Anyone have a solution to this puzzle? I let folks decide for themselves, but here is what we know. NO clip was photographed inside the rifle in situ, NO clip was inventoried at the SN and NO clip was mentioned or seen by any of the cops on the seen. Lt. Day was required to remove the clip (this means he had to check to see if one was inside the rifle) along with the ammo before performing his CSU duties. So take all this into account and then consider when he left the TSBD with it 30 minutes later on it had a clip inside it!The police photo shows the clip still in the rifle in situ. As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or LoginThanks for the link, now which one shows the clip in the rifle in situ?
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November 02, 2010, 07:19:26 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 8302
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Been reading about CE543 the "dented lip casing" in, amongst other areas, Josiah Thompson's Six Seconds in Dallas (SSID). It would appear that there is compelling evidence to indicate that CE543, a spent cartridge case found on the floor of the 6th floor of the TSBD, could not have been fired from "Oswald's" rifle (CE139) on 22nd November 1963. The evidence lies in the markings found on the casing which would tend to indicate that it wasn't loaded into CE139 and subsequently fired from it. This raises a few questions in my mind regarding why it was found on the 6th floor...
1. Did someone plant it there? If so, why?
2. Was it already in CE139 when it was taken into the TSBD? If so, why would a spent shell be left in the weapon - safety?
3. Did the shooter accidentally drop it there?
4. Did the shooter deliberately drop it there? If so, why?
(In response to 4 above, it may be that, if the casing was left in the weapon as in 2, prior to the shooting, maybe the shooter operated the bolt and ejected it during preparation?)
This is a great topic and a great post -- no wonder NO LNer responded to it! As you may know, I believe LHO was the shooter and most likely the only shooter. To indicate my open-mindedness, how about this? The Carcano clip was designed to stay in the magazine of the rifle while the bullets were fired. It is ejected when the last bullet is pushed into the breech by the bolt-action mechanism -- -- not when the last bullet is fired. The rifle was found with one "live" bullet in the breech and the clip still in the gun. I'm no firearms expert - but I find this "interesting". Did Oswald pick up the clip and re-insert it in the gun? Did the police place the clip back in the gun? Did the clip stay in the gun due to some fault in that rifle? Anyone have a solution to this puzzle?
The rifle was found with one "live" bullet in the breech and the clip still in the gun.I have debated this topic for three years at ACJ to no avail! Sylvia Meagher noted that there was NO MENTION of a clip in any of the WC volumes when she INDEXED them for us in 1967. There is NONE of the following in regards to the clip: 1) NO photos of the clip in the rifle in situ! The closest we get is a picture of Lt. Day leaving the TSBD 30 minutes later with a clip hanging out. 2) There is NO mention of a clip in any of police officer's reports. 3) There is NO clip inventoried on the SN inventory sheet! The WC claimed the clip jammed inside the Carcano so that is why no one saw it, but Lt. Day was required by CSU standard to remove the ammo and clip/magazine before processing it for prints. Furthermore, the clip now in the Archives is in MINT condition which makes the WC's comment of it being "crimped" either false or shows they have submitted ANOTHER clip into evidence!
Did Oswald pick up the clip and re-insert it in the gun?No is the answer and we know this because there were NO LHO fingerprints on the clip! Did the police place the clip back in the gun?
Did the clip stay in the gun due to some fault in that rifle?
Anyone have a solution to this puzzle? I let folks decide for themselves, but here is what we know. NO clip was photographed inside the rifle in situ, NO clip was inventoried at the SN and NO clip was mentioned or seen by any of the cops on the seen. Lt. Day was required to remove the clip (this means he had to check to see if one was inside the rifle) along with the ammo before performing his CSU duties. So take all this into account and then consider when he left the TSBD with it 30 minutes later on it had a clip inside it!The police photo shows the clip still in the rifle in situ. As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login- Rob Caprio Great! CE-74 (Caprio Error #74) How about you pointing out which photo shows this Bill? See, Tony gave us a bunch of links but did not say which one showed this. I have asked for this for years and no one has produced this so I doubt Tony has either. Why not point it out for us since YOU HAVE DECIDED TO TAKE THE WORD OF A MAN you seem to disagree with on almost everything?
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November 03, 2010, 03:30:48 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 6711
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Been reading about CE543 the "dented lip casing" in, amongst other areas, Josiah Thompson's Six Seconds in Dallas (SSID). It would appear that there is compelling evidence to indicate that CE543, a spent cartridge case found on the floor of the 6th floor of the TSBD, could not have been fired from "Oswald's" rifle (CE139) on 22nd November 1963. The evidence lies in the markings found on the casing which would tend to indicate that it wasn't loaded into CE139 and subsequently fired from it. This raises a few questions in my mind regarding why it was found on the 6th floor...
1. Did someone plant it there? If so, why?
2. Was it already in CE139 when it was taken into the TSBD? If so, why would a spent shell be left in the weapon - safety?
3. Did the shooter accidentally drop it there?
4. Did the shooter deliberately drop it there? If so, why?
(In response to 4 above, it may be that, if the casing was left in the weapon as in 2, prior to the shooting, maybe the shooter operated the bolt and ejected it during preparation?)
This is a great topic and a great post -- no wonder NO LNer responded to it! As you may know, I believe LHO was the shooter and most likely the only shooter. To indicate my open-mindedness, how about this? The Carcano clip was designed to stay in the magazine of the rifle while the bullets were fired. It is ejected when the last bullet is pushed into the breech by the bolt-action mechanism -- -- not when the last bullet is fired. The rifle was found with one "live" bullet in the breech and the clip still in the gun. I'm no firearms expert - but I find this "interesting". Did Oswald pick up the clip and re-insert it in the gun? Did the police place the clip back in the gun? Did the clip stay in the gun due to some fault in that rifle? Anyone have a solution to this puzzle? This is extremely old and tiresome. On that model the magazine sometimes does not fall out automatically. In fact I believe that in some photos we can see where it started to fall out. Then you can present evidence showing it was in the rifle when it was discovered, right? Yes, the Alyea film.
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November 03, 2010, 09:20:15 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 8302
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Been reading about CE543 the "dented lip casing" in, amongst other areas, Josiah Thompson's Six Seconds in Dallas (SSID). It would appear that there is compelling evidence to indicate that CE543, a spent cartridge case found on the floor of the 6th floor of the TSBD, could not have been fired from "Oswald's" rifle (CE139) on 22nd November 1963. The evidence lies in the markings found on the casing which would tend to indicate that it wasn't loaded into CE139 and subsequently fired from it. This raises a few questions in my mind regarding why it was found on the 6th floor...
1. Did someone plant it there? If so, why?
2. Was it already in CE139 when it was taken into the TSBD? If so, why would a spent shell be left in the weapon - safety?
3. Did the shooter accidentally drop it there?
4. Did the shooter deliberately drop it there? If so, why?
(In response to 4 above, it may be that, if the casing was left in the weapon as in 2, prior to the shooting, maybe the shooter operated the bolt and ejected it during preparation?)
This is a great topic and a great post -- no wonder NO LNer responded to it! As you may know, I believe LHO was the shooter and most likely the only shooter. To indicate my open-mindedness, how about this? The Carcano clip was designed to stay in the magazine of the rifle while the bullets were fired. It is ejected when the last bullet is pushed into the breech by the bolt-action mechanism -- -- not when the last bullet is fired. The rifle was found with one "live" bullet in the breech and the clip still in the gun. I'm no firearms expert - but I find this "interesting". Did Oswald pick up the clip and re-insert it in the gun? Did the police place the clip back in the gun? Did the clip stay in the gun due to some fault in that rifle? Anyone have a solution to this puzzle? This is extremely old and tiresome. On that model the magazine sometimes does not fall out automatically. In fact I believe that in some photos we can see where it started to fall out. Then you can present evidence showing it was in the rifle when it was discovered, right? Yes, the Alyea film. So you are claiming you can see the clip in the Alyea film? YOU must have better eyes than me. Why not post the picture that shows this?
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November 03, 2010, 11:27:37 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 3611
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Quote by Rob Caprio:Also, LHO only had 5.6 seconds (per the WC) so if he was playing around with this one bullet how did he have time to fire two other shots? Remember, the THIRD one was the kill shot too! Moot point. Oswald had almost 9 seconds. Revisionist history can't help you Bill as the WC said he had 5.6 seconds! Are you saying the WC lied? Are you saying Oswald had only 5.6 seconds? Answer the question Bill, did the WC lie about this? The WC didn't say he only had 5.6 seconds.
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What is silly is thinking that two turns that reduced the speed of the car to 8-11 m.p.h. is no big deal when motorcades are suppose to keep a 44 m.p.h. speed..R Caprio
LHO had poor hand-eye coordination and proof of this is seen in the fact he couldn't drive an automobile-- R Caprio
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November 04, 2010, 08:06:59 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 8302
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Quote by Rob Caprio:Also, LHO only had 5.6 seconds (per the WC) so if he was playing around with this one bullet how did he have time to fire two other shots? Remember, the THIRD one was the kill shot too! Moot point. Oswald had almost 9 seconds. Revisionist history can't help you Bill as the WC said he had 5.6 seconds! Are you saying the WC lied? Are you saying Oswald had only 5.6 seconds? Answer the question Bill, did the WC lie about this? The WC didn't say he only had 5.6 seconds. Don't equate you NOT reading the WC with them not saying it.
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