 Ian Lloyd |
 September 23, 2008, 08:42:48 AM
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Been reading about CE543 the "dented lip casing" in, amongst other areas, Josiah Thompson's Six Seconds in Dallas (SSID). It would appear that there is compelling evidence to indicate that CE543, a spent cartridge case found on the floor of the 6th floor of the TSBD, could not have been fired from "Oswald's" rifle (CE139) on 22nd November 1963. The evidence lies in the markings found on the casing which would tend to indicate that it wasn't loaded into CE139 and subsequently fired from it. This raises a few questions in my mind regarding why it was found on the 6th floor...
1. Did someone plant it there? If so, why?
2. Was it already in CE139 when it was taken into the TSBD? If so, why would a spent shell be left in the weapon - safety?
3. Did the shooter accidentally drop it there?
4. Did the shooter deliberately drop it there? If so, why?
(In response to 4 above, it may be that, if the casing was left in the weapon as in 2, prior to the shooting, maybe the shooter operated the bolt and ejected it during preparation?)
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« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 08:29:11 AM by Ian Lloyd »
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September 24, 2008, 09:36:42 PM
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Hello Ian,
Just wanted to add, there was also a second rifle found on the sixth floor: A German high powered 7.65 Mauser rifle. Strangely enough, while police reported this weapon, all their reports were soon changed, only documenting the Italian rifle supposedly owned by Oswald.
- Rob McCoy
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Ian Lloyd |
September 25, 2008, 08:44:27 AM
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Rob & "Admin",
The Mauser identification still apeears to be mired in confusion though it would appear that it was just a case of mistaken identity. I'm undecided about Roger Craig - his story did change somewhat over time.
I now tend to go along the route of the M-C having been mistaken for a Mauser - they looked similar and, to an untrained eye and, especially if it was someone more used to Mausers, the immediate conclusion would probably have been that it was a Mauser. Whilst Craig mentions that Weitzman was an "expert" as he'd been in the sporting goods business and Weitzman himself testifies to the same thing, I've seen no evidence that he actually was - looking at his employment history, the sporting goods business would have been a radical departure for him from selling dresses, also it seems there was very little time for him to have been "in the sporting goods business awhile...".
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« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 08:45:30 AM by Ian Lloyd »
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October 11, 2008, 01:33:44 AM
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Super Member
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Yes , I tend to agree that it was just a mistake. There's a exelent photograph (which I will try to find and post) that shows Fritz and other officers holding the rifle at it's place of discovery, it very clearly is not a Mauser but a Mannlicher Carcano. Personally, I've never had much faith in Craig's claims. His daughter recently posted on the ED forum. She wrote that he had been a liar and a publicity seeker that had been in need of psychiatric help, not much of a reference from his own daughter. As a child she had been present when someone had taken a shot at Craig, she was in no doubt whatsoever that the guy responsible was the jealous husband of a woman Craig had been having an affair with and that the shooting had no connection to the assassination. Denis. Couldn't find the photo I intended but these should suffice: " The recovery of the rifle was filmed by Tom Alyea of WFAA-TV, and his footage shows the rifle to be a Mannlicher-Carcano."  
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« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 02:01:59 AM by Denis Pointing »
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Ian Lloyd |
October 17, 2008, 10:57:23 AM
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There were 3 empty casings found on the 6th floor and one cartridge in the rifle. The M-C clip could hold 6 cartridges and, from what I've seen of one, any less than 6 may be difficult to load as the cartridges rattle around loosely within the clip with less than 6 loaded.
So did Oswald, or whoever transported the rifle on the day, carry it around with a live round in the chamber ready to fire or was there an empty casing in the chamber that was ejected prior to the shooting?
Would Oswald, as the WC would have us believe, disassemble & reassemble the weapon whilst there was a live round in the chamber?
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October 26, 2010, 06:20:22 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 8302
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Been reading about CE543 the "dented lip casing" in, amongst other areas, Josiah Thompson's Six Seconds in Dallas (SSID). It would appear that there is compelling evidence to indicate that CE543, a spent cartridge case found on the floor of the 6th floor of the TSBD, could not have been fired from "Oswald's" rifle (CE139) on 22nd November 1963. The evidence lies in the markings found on the casing which would tend to indicate that it wasn't loaded into CE139 and subsequently fired from it. This raises a few questions in my mind regarding why it was found on the 6th floor...
1. Did someone plant it there? If so, why?
2. Was it already in CE139 when it was taken into the TSBD? If so, why would a spent shell be left in the weapon - safety?
3. Did the shooter accidentally drop it there?
4. Did the shooter deliberately drop it there? If so, why?
(In response to 4 above, it may be that, if the casing was left in the weapon as in 2, prior to the shooting, maybe the shooter operated the bolt and ejected it during preparation?)
This is a great topic and a great post -- no wonder NO LNer responded to it!
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A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
"Benavides- Saw Oswald kill Tippit, picked him out of a lineup." - Brian "Doesn't Know His Rear From His Back" Walker
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October 27, 2010, 03:15:34 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 1299
Profile In Courage
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Been reading about CE543 the "dented lip casing" in, amongst other areas, Josiah Thompson's Six Seconds in Dallas (SSID). It would appear that there is compelling evidence to indicate that CE543, a spent cartridge case found on the floor of the 6th floor of the TSBD, could not have been fired from "Oswald's" rifle (CE139) on 22nd November 1963. The evidence lies in the markings found on the casing which would tend to indicate that it wasn't loaded into CE139 and subsequently fired from it. This raises a few questions in my mind regarding why it was found on the 6th floor...
1. Did someone plant it there? If so, why?
2. Was it already in CE139 when it was taken into the TSBD? If so, why would a spent shell be left in the weapon - safety?
3. Did the shooter accidentally drop it there?
4. Did the shooter deliberately drop it there? If so, why?
(In response to 4 above, it may be that, if the casing was left in the weapon as in 2, prior to the shooting, maybe the shooter operated the bolt and ejected it during preparation?)
This is a great topic and a great post -- no wonder NO LNer responded to it! As you may know, I believe LHO was the shooter and most likely the only shooter. To indicate my open-mindedness, how about this? The Carcano clip was designed to stay in the magazine of the rifle while the bullets were fired. It is ejected when the last bullet is pushed into the breech by the bolt-action mechanism -- -- not when the last bullet is fired. The rifle was found with one "live" bullet in the breech and the clip still in the gun. I'm no firearms expert - but I find this "interesting". Did Oswald pick up the clip and re-insert it in the gun? Did the police place the clip back in the gun? Did the clip stay in the gun due to some fault in that rifle? Anyone have a solution to this puzzle?
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October 27, 2010, 07:18:17 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 8302
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Been reading about CE543 the "dented lip casing" in, amongst other areas, Josiah Thompson's Six Seconds in Dallas (SSID). It would appear that there is compelling evidence to indicate that CE543, a spent cartridge case found on the floor of the 6th floor of the TSBD, could not have been fired from "Oswald's" rifle (CE139) on 22nd November 1963. The evidence lies in the markings found on the casing which would tend to indicate that it wasn't loaded into CE139 and subsequently fired from it. This raises a few questions in my mind regarding why it was found on the 6th floor...
1. Did someone plant it there? If so, why?
2. Was it already in CE139 when it was taken into the TSBD? If so, why would a spent shell be left in the weapon - safety?
3. Did the shooter accidentally drop it there?
4. Did the shooter deliberately drop it there? If so, why?
(In response to 4 above, it may be that, if the casing was left in the weapon as in 2, prior to the shooting, maybe the shooter operated the bolt and ejected it during preparation?)
This is a great topic and a great post -- no wonder NO LNer responded to it! As you may know, I believe LHO was the shooter and most likely the only shooter. To indicate my open-mindedness, how about this? The Carcano clip was designed to stay in the magazine of the rifle while the bullets were fired. It is ejected when the last bullet is pushed into the breech by the bolt-action mechanism -- -- not when the last bullet is fired. The rifle was found with one "live" bullet in the breech and the clip still in the gun. I'm no firearms expert - but I find this "interesting". Did Oswald pick up the clip and re-insert it in the gun? Did the police place the clip back in the gun? Did the clip stay in the gun due to some fault in that rifle? Anyone have a solution to this puzzle?
The rifle was found with one "live" bullet in the breech and the clip still in the gun.I have debated this topic for three years at ACJ to no avail! Sylvia Meagher noted that there was NO MENTION of a clip in any of the WC volumes when she INDEXED them for us in 1967. There is NONE of the following in regards to the clip: 1) NO photos of the clip in the rifle in situ! The closest we get is a picture of Lt. Day leaving the TSBD 30 minutes later with a clip hanging out. 2) There is NO mention of a clip in any of police officer's reports. 3) There is NO clip inventoried on the SN inventory sheet! The WC claimed the clip jammed inside the Carcano so that is why no one saw it, but Lt. Day was required by CSU standard to remove the ammo and clip/magazine before processing it for prints. Furthermore, the clip now in the Archives is in MINT condition which makes the WC's comment of it being "crimped" either false or shows they have submitted ANOTHER clip into evidence!
Did Oswald pick up the clip and re-insert it in the gun?No is the answer and we know this because there were NO LHO fingerprints on the clip! Did the police place the clip back in the gun?
Did the clip stay in the gun due to some fault in that rifle?
Anyone have a solution to this puzzle? I let folks decide for themselves, but here is what we know. NO clip was photographed inside the rifle in situ, NO clip was inventoried at the SN and NO clip was mentioned or seen by any of the cops on the seen. Lt. Day was required to remove the clip (this means he had to check to see if one was inside the rifle) along with the ammo before performing his CSU duties. So take all this into account and then consider when he left the TSBD with it 30 minutes later on it had a clip inside it!
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October 27, 2010, 08:19:27 PM
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In a "short cycle", a shooter fires off the round and then lifts the bolt. The bolt is retracted, but (by accident) not completely retracted (shooter in a hurry). The shell is extracted but not ejected. The shooter then continues operating the bolt, pushing it forward. When this happens, the shell that was supposed to be ejected catches on the chamber. The shooter realizes that the bolt is not all the way forward so he operates the bolt again. Now the shell is finally ejected, but dented. The bolt is then pushed forward and a fresh round is chambered. The end result, a dented shell casing laying on the floor in the sniper's nest.
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"The TRUTH doesn't require anyone's belief." - Dale Myers
"The human mind craves a mystery more than it loves the truth." - Dan Rather
"Reason does not always appeal to unreasonable men." - John F. Kennedy
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October 28, 2010, 05:41:50 AM
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Posts: 1299
Profile In Courage
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In a "short cycle", a shooter fires off the round and then lifts the bolt. The bolt is retracted, but (by accident) not completely retracted (shooter in a hurry). The shell is extracted but not ejected. The shooter then continues operating the bolt, pushing it forward. When this happens, the shell that was supposed to be ejected catches on the chamber. The shooter realizes that the bolt is not all the way forward so he operates the bolt again. Now the shell is finally ejected, but dented. The bolt is then pushed forward and a fresh round is chambered. The end result, a dented shell casing laying on the floor in the sniper's nest.
Reasonable explanation, Bill. You seemed to have solved the dented "hull" puzzle. There was a clip seen in a photograph of the rifle outside the TSBD. Working backwards, there must have been a clip with the rifle when it was found. The DPD Crime Lab did not note it as an item separate to the rifle. Another example of incompetence? Even so, cannot see anything sinister here. If there was a late "addition" of the "clip" by plotters, where did it come from -- -- if not the Carcano rifle? Can there now be a consensus with this aspect of the rifle evidence?
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October 28, 2010, 09:02:59 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 8302
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In a "short cycle", a shooter fires off the round and then lifts the bolt. The bolt is retracted, but (by accident) not completely retracted (shooter in a hurry). The shell is extracted but not ejected. The shooter then continues operating the bolt, pushing it forward. When this happens, the shell that was supposed to be ejected catches on the chamber. The shooter realizes that the bolt is not all the way forward so he operates the bolt again. Now the shell is finally ejected, but dented. The bolt is then pushed forward and a fresh round is chambered. The end result, a dented shell casing laying on the floor in the sniper's nest.
Reasonable explanation, Bill. You seemed to have solved the dented "hull" puzzle. There was a clip seen in a photograph of the rifle outside the TSBD. Working backwards, there must have been a clip with the rifle when it was found. The DPD Crime Lab did not note it as an item separate to the rifle. Another example of incompetence? Even so, cannot see anything sinister here. If there was a late "addition" of the "clip" by plotters, where did it come from -- -- if not the Carcano rifle? Can there now be a consensus with this aspect of the rifle evidence? The bigger point he did NOT solve is whether or not the Carcano can fire a shell with a crimp in it. Also, LHO only had 5.6 seconds (per the WC) so if he was playing around with this one bullet how did he have time to fire two other shots? Remember, the THIRD one was the kill shot too! There was a clip seen in a photograph of the rifle outside the TSBD.
Working backwards, there must have been a clip with the rifle when it was found.Oh boy, circular logic in full use here! Because there was a clip in it when it was taken out DOES NOT mean one was in the rifle when it was found! The DPD Crime Lab did not note it as an item separate to the rifle.
Another example of incompetence?
Even so, cannot see anything sinister here.One cannot see when they are blind. YOU don't want to see anything, and what's more, you are proclaiming things you have no evidence to support. That is fine if you state it is JUST YOUR OPINION but that is not the tone I am getting here.
If there was a late "addition" of the "clip" by plotters, where did it come from -- if not the Carcano rifle?Why is that our problem to figure out? Here is the bottom line for you -- ONLY two rifles in that time period used a clip system still and they were the M-1 (American) rifle and the Carcano. The M-1 ejected the clip when the last shot was fired, and the Carcano's clip fell out when the last shot was chambered. The folks working on the conspiracy (and I don't know who this was per se, but one would have to think that Fritz was invovled) left the Carcano in the way it should be -- last shot chambered -- clip gone. But others who only knew of the M-1 had to say, "Hey wait a minute, the clip shouldn't be gone UNTIL the last shot is fired!" So someone got one from somewhere. I won't speculate on who or where as that is not my concern. The FACT is there is NO evidence showing the rifle had a clip in situ and yet 30 minutes later it did have one. Use your own imagination on that one. Can there now be a consensus with this aspect of the rifle evidence?How can there be a consensus when you clearly, and admittedly, don't even know what the rifle evidence is?
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October 28, 2010, 09:05:38 PM
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Quote by Rob Caprio:Also, LHO only had 5.6 seconds (per the WC) so if he was playing around with this one bullet how did he have time to fire two other shots? Remember, the THIRD one was the kill shot too! Moot point. Oswald had almost 9 seconds.
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