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 November 01, 2010, 07:45:29 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 8302
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Why did a person coming forward saying he was wounded CHANGE the wound locations on a body that was autopsied months before?
The wound in the back of JFK was duly noted as being in the back below the shoulders at the T-3 level about 4 to 6 inches to the RIGHT of the spine. It was that way for months, and then finally the WC could not ignore the story of James Tague anymore. James Tague was hit in the cheek by a bullet that ricocheted off the curb near where he was standing under the Triple Underpass. The DPD and FBI tried to explain this away for a many months as they had said only three shots were fired and that one hit JFK in the back, one hit him in the head and one hit JBC (keep in mind the prosectors had stated there was NO wound to JFK's throat).
Finally when forced to deal with the situation the FBI submitted a report to the WC on July 17, 1964 that said the following:
Quote on
It should be noted that, since this mark was observed on November 22, 1963, there have been numerous rains, which could have possibly washed away a mark and also that the area is cleaned by a street cleaning machine about once a week, which could also wash away any such mark.
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The WC could not "wash away" this issue however as they were getting pressure to look into it and they were sent the Tom Dillard (Dallas Morning News) photo and it was mentioned that he believed there was a lead mark on the curb when he viewed it shortly after the shooting on 11/22/63.
The FBI finally removed the area of the curb for testing and this was what they said about the results:
Quote on
Small foreign metal smears were found adhering to the curbing section within the area of the mark. These metal smears were spectrographically determined to be essentially lead with a trace of antimony. No copper was found. The lead could have originated from the lead core of a mutilated metal-jacketed bullet such as the type bullet loaded into a 6.5 millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano cartridges (it should be noted there was NO such thing as Mannlicher-Carcano cartridges, there was simply 6.5 mm cartridges) or from some other source having the same composition....The absence of copper precludes the possibility that the mark on the curbing section was made by an unmutilated military-type full-metal jacketed bullet...Further, the damage to the curbing would have been much more extensive if a rifle bullet the curbing without first having struck some other object. Therefore, this mark could not have been made by the first impact of a high-velocity bullet.
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So after months of ignoring Tague and dismissing the idea of a 4th shot is anyone surprised by the fact that the object that hit the curbing section and wounded Tague was NOT found to be a whole bullet? They had to say it was a "fragment" from one of the other three that went on to hit the curb and break a piece off and have it fly up and cut Tague's cheek. Of course the possibility of it being a NON FULL-METAL JACKETED bullet did not get entertained either.
Back to the main point here, why did Tague's coming forward cause the wound in the back cause the following to happen when JFK's body had already been autopsied?
1) The back wound moved post-mortem to the T-1 level and placed at the base of the neck.
2) The admittance of a throat wound they had previously denied, but of course this was an EXIT according to the WC.
Can anyone explain why the issue of Tague should CHANGE THE WOUNDS seen on JFK's body when it had been autopsied already?
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A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
"Benavides- Saw Oswald kill Tippit, picked him out of a lineup." - Brian "Doesn't Know His Rear From His Back" Walker
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November 05, 2010, 11:00:59 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 6711
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For Tony Marsh!
You never seem to know what you are talking about. Who "duly noted" the back wound at T-3? Only one person, Admiral Burkley and he did not examine the body carefully. He just signed the death certificate. He had no idea where T-3 was nor do you.
Tony, YOU never seem to what you are talking about! This is but one witness who describes a wound similar to the one noted on the Naval Death Certificate.
Representative BOGGS. Did you see any other wound other than the head wound?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column.
A bullet coming down at 18 degrees and hitting near T-3 would have blasted through that vertebra and smashed into the manubrium, neither of which were injured. You may think this was an official conclusion. It was not. It was just a guess.
Then all you have to do is cite or quote Burkley saying this. When can I expect that?
Then you made it worse by saying, "The wound in the back of JFK was duly noted as being in the back below the shoulders at the T-3 level about 4 to 6 inches to the RIGHT of the spine. "
What is this?
Representative BOGGS. Did you see any other wound other than the head wound?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column.
Why do you make silly comments like and then try and make it seem like I am the kooky one? Surely you don't think Burkley signed a Death Certificate stating this WITHOUT conferring with the PH doctors since he did NOT personally work on JFK? I hope not.
You are extremely confused. That 4 to 6 inches was never about the location to the right of the spine. It was a wide range of guesses about how far DOWN the wound was, depending on whether you buy the WC defender lies about his jacket being bunched up. With or without the bunch the wound is always 1-3/4 inches to the right of the MIDLINE. We can and should debate for the next decade exactly how far down on the back the wound really was. But it was never measured correctly. So all we can do now is guess and try to reconstruct its location.
The ONLY one that seems confused is YOU!
Representative BOGGS. Did you see any other wound other than the head wound?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column.
You wrote: (it should be noted there was NO such thing as Mannlicher-Carcano cartridges, there was simply 6.5 mm cartridges)
That is simply not true. You know nothing about ballistics and ammunition. There are many types of 6.5 cartridges each incompatible with each other. Different model rifles all 6.5 mm nominally use different cartridges and you can't use one in a different model rifle. Oswald's rifle used the 6.5 x 52.5 mm cartridge.The Greek Mannlicher and Schoenaur used the 6.5 x 53.5 mm cartridge. The Dutch Mannlicher used the 6.5 x 54 mm cartridge.
Tony is on a roll today! YOU are the one ignorant of the facts in this case Tony as there is no Carcano ammo! The Carcano is a WEAPON not an ammo type. The WCC (along with other companies) made 6.5 mm cartridges, but they were NOT called "Carcano cartridges" as ANY weapon that fires a 6.5 mm round can use them.
Just how clueless are you?
The Swedish Mauser used the 6.5 x 54 mm cartridge. The Portuguese Mauser used the 6.5 x 58 mm cartridge. The Japanese rifle used the 6.5 x 50.5 cartridge. In addition to the size difference there are minor differences in design. For example when shopping for Carcano ammo I was able to instantly spot the original Italian SMI ammo when I saw the crimps on the neck. There are also some telltale differences in quality of design and craftsmanship. And of course you can often tell the difference by the headstamping on each cartridge.
So you are saying there is NOT a standard 6.5 mm cartridge (whether it be a 50.5 version or a 54 version) that WORKS IN ALL THE TYPES OF WEAPONS you listed?
That is my point! THERE IS NO AMMO JUST FOR THE MANNLICHER-CARCANO (even the Mannlicher is not really needed)!
It's not even realistic to claim that there are only 6.5 mm bullets. Aside from the obvious differences between a hunting round and a FMJ, there are small difference amongst the same type of hunting bullet or FMJ bullet according to brand. FBI agent Robert Frazier was able to tell instantly that the recovered bullets were WCC M-C without seeing the cartridges. The DPD wasn't even able to identify the caliber or coating of the Walker bullet.
We are discussing a FMJ bullet here (although it could have been a hunting soft point) based on the comments by the FBI. Why can't you stay on topic?
Tague had nothing to do with moving up the back wound. The two things are unrelated. The WC had to lie and move up the back wound because they knew it was lower than the throat wound and when Specter made up the SBT the bullet must leave Kennedy on a downward course to hit Connally.
There was NO need for the SBT until the issue of Tague came up. Before that they had three wounds and three bullets.
THAT"s when they decided to lie and move the wound up to the neck. Before that it was always in the upper back.
The wounding of Tague necessitated the need for a SBT theory, and to make this work they needed the wound to be at the T-1 level.
I don't believe the Tague wounding was caused by a fragment from the head shot, but that seems to be the most popular theory of the WC defenders. At least they have the bullet break up so that only a lead fragment hits the curb.
And yet the other bullet supposedly hit two bones and did NOT break up in the least.
>>This is but one witness who describes a wound similar to the one noted on the Naval Death Certificate. That's YOUR interpretation of what level you think their descriptions represent. I stand by my remark. Burkley was the ONLY one who put T-3 in writing. >>Do you think Burkley just signed a Death Certificate that said this without conferring with the doctors at PH? Of course not. Don't be silly. But the autopsy doctors did not tell him T-3. That was his own idea. Do you think Burkley just signed a Death Certificate that said this without seeing the body himself? >>Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column. You are still confused. He said 6 inches below the neckline, not 6 inches to the right-hand side of the spinal column. >>So you are saying there is NOT a standard 6.5 mm cartridge (whether it be a 50.5 version or a 54 version) that WORKS IN ALL THE TYPES OF WEAPONS you listed? Correct. You can not interchange different length cartridges. The cartridge must fit each particular chamber precisely, not too short, not too long. >>THERE IS NO AMMO JUST FOR THE MANNLICHER-CARCANO Again you don't know what the Hell you are talking about and just SHOUTING does not make you correct. Ammo is sold in the same caliber for different models of rifle and they are not interchangeable. There may be several models which all use the same cartridge, but the 6.5 x 52.5 ammo can only be used in the Carcano, the Breda and the Fiat-Revelli. >>We are discussing a FMJ bullet here No, you were discussing the cartridges not the bullet. Maybe you don't know the difference between a cartridge and a bullet. As for the SBT in mid April 1964 the WC was preparing to conclude three shots three hits. They had no concept of what caused the injury to Tague. Everything was fine and dandy until Specter realized there was not enough time for Oswald's rifle to fire two shots with 30 Zapruder frames. That is what caused the SBT. They could easily have said as some WC defenders have that a fragment from the head shot wounded Tague and still had no need for a SBT. First shot hits Kennedy, second shot hits Connally, last shot hits Kennedy's head and a fragment hits the curb near Tague. >>This is but one witness who describes a wound similar to the one noted on the Naval Death Certificate. That's YOUR interpretation of what level you think their descriptions represent.
I stand by my remark. Burkley was the ONLY one who put T-3 in writing.So you "stand by" your silly comment that Burkley would sign a document HE did not check on with the doctors who actually worked on JFK? My interpretation has NOTHING to do with it as Hill's comment is quite clear for everyone to see! Representative BOGGS. Did you see any other wound other than the head wound? Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column. >>Do you think Burkley just signed a Death Certificate that said this without conferring with the doctors at PH? Of course not. Don't be silly. But the autopsy doctors did not tell him T-3. That was his own idea.  He is INSISTING he did but for me to mention it is "silly!" YOU are saying he just put that in and signed it without looking at the body or conferring with the PH doctors! YOU are the silly one! Do you think Burkley just signed a Death Certificate that said this without seeing the body himself? >>Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column. You are still confused. He said 6 inches below the neckline, not 6 inches to the right-hand side of the spinal column.What part of "right-hand side" of the spinal column is confusing you? >>So you are saying there is NOT a standard 6.5 mm cartridge (whether it be a 50.5 version or a 54 version) that WORKS IN ALL THE TYPES OF WEAPONS you listed? Correct. You can not interchange different length cartridges.
The cartridge must fit each particular chamber precisely, not too short, not too long.Of course you can't, BUT WHO IS SAYING THAT YOU CAN? What you can't do is call a 6.5 mm cartridge (no matter what type it is -- i.e. 50.5, etc...) a CARCANO CARTRIDGE. The Carcano was a WEAPON, NOT AN AMMO TYPE!>>THERE IS NO AMMO JUST FOR THE MANNLICHER-CARCANO Again you don't know what the Hell you are talking about and just SHOUTING does not make you correct.
Ammo is sold in the same caliber for different models of rifle and they are not interchangeable.
There may be several models which all use the same cartridge, but the 6.5 x 52.5 ammo can only be used in the Carcano, the Breda and the Fiat-Revelli.YOU are the  Tony as you are confusing "using" with my comment. MY comment was there was "no such thing as a Mannlicher-Carcano ammo" as ANY STANDARD 6.5 MM AMMO that fit the specs of that gun could be used! The makers of the ammo for the alleged murder weapon was the WWC so you will have to CITE OR QUOTE them saying they called this ammo "Mannlicher-Carcano Ammo!" It could be used IN that weapon of course, but it could also be used in OTHER WEAPONS that used that same caliber type. Just how slow are you? >>We are discussing a FMJ bullet here No, you were discussing the cartridges not the bullet.
Maybe you don't know the difference between a cartridge and a bullet.Maybe you should quit while you are behind as the WHOLE POINT OF THE POST WAS TO DISCUSS THE BULLET THAT HIT THE CURB! NO one, but you of course, said a CARTRIDGE hit the curb and that was what they tested for! Excuse my "shouting" but when you discuss things with people like you who make silly statements that have no bearing in fact you have to! Then of course it is all my fault to boot. >> YOU are the one ignorant of the facts in this case Tony as there is no Carcano ammo!
It says right on the box "6.5 x 52 Carcano."
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November 07, 2010, 04:58:57 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 8302
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For Tony Marsh!
You never seem to know what you are talking about. Who "duly noted" the back wound at T-3? Only one person, Admiral Burkley and he did not examine the body carefully. He just signed the death certificate. He had no idea where T-3 was nor do you.
Tony, YOU never seem to what you are talking about! This is but one witness who describes a wound similar to the one noted on the Naval Death Certificate.
Representative BOGGS. Did you see any other wound other than the head wound?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column.
A bullet coming down at 18 degrees and hitting near T-3 would have blasted through that vertebra and smashed into the manubrium, neither of which were injured. You may think this was an official conclusion. It was not. It was just a guess.
Then all you have to do is cite or quote Burkley saying this. When can I expect that?
Then you made it worse by saying, "The wound in the back of JFK was duly noted as being in the back below the shoulders at the T-3 level about 4 to 6 inches to the RIGHT of the spine. "
What is this?
Representative BOGGS. Did you see any other wound other than the head wound?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column.
Why do you make silly comments like and then try and make it seem like I am the kooky one? Surely you don't think Burkley signed a Death Certificate stating this WITHOUT conferring with the PH doctors since he did NOT personally work on JFK? I hope not.
You are extremely confused. That 4 to 6 inches was never about the location to the right of the spine. It was a wide range of guesses about how far DOWN the wound was, depending on whether you buy the WC defender lies about his jacket being bunched up. With or without the bunch the wound is always 1-3/4 inches to the right of the MIDLINE. We can and should debate for the next decade exactly how far down on the back the wound really was. But it was never measured correctly. So all we can do now is guess and try to reconstruct its location.
The ONLY one that seems confused is YOU!
Representative BOGGS. Did you see any other wound other than the head wound?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column.
You wrote: (it should be noted there was NO such thing as Mannlicher-Carcano cartridges, there was simply 6.5 mm cartridges)
That is simply not true. You know nothing about ballistics and ammunition. There are many types of 6.5 cartridges each incompatible with each other. Different model rifles all 6.5 mm nominally use different cartridges and you can't use one in a different model rifle. Oswald's rifle used the 6.5 x 52.5 mm cartridge.The Greek Mannlicher and Schoenaur used the 6.5 x 53.5 mm cartridge. The Dutch Mannlicher used the 6.5 x 54 mm cartridge.
Tony is on a roll today! YOU are the one ignorant of the facts in this case Tony as there is no Carcano ammo! The Carcano is a WEAPON not an ammo type. The WCC (along with other companies) made 6.5 mm cartridges, but they were NOT called "Carcano cartridges" as ANY weapon that fires a 6.5 mm round can use them.
Just how clueless are you?
The Swedish Mauser used the 6.5 x 54 mm cartridge. The Portuguese Mauser used the 6.5 x 58 mm cartridge. The Japanese rifle used the 6.5 x 50.5 cartridge. In addition to the size difference there are minor differences in design. For example when shopping for Carcano ammo I was able to instantly spot the original Italian SMI ammo when I saw the crimps on the neck. There are also some telltale differences in quality of design and craftsmanship. And of course you can often tell the difference by the headstamping on each cartridge.
So you are saying there is NOT a standard 6.5 mm cartridge (whether it be a 50.5 version or a 54 version) that WORKS IN ALL THE TYPES OF WEAPONS you listed?
That is my point! THERE IS NO AMMO JUST FOR THE MANNLICHER-CARCANO (even the Mannlicher is not really needed)!
It's not even realistic to claim that there are only 6.5 mm bullets. Aside from the obvious differences between a hunting round and a FMJ, there are small difference amongst the same type of hunting bullet or FMJ bullet according to brand. FBI agent Robert Frazier was able to tell instantly that the recovered bullets were WCC M-C without seeing the cartridges. The DPD wasn't even able to identify the caliber or coating of the Walker bullet.
We are discussing a FMJ bullet here (although it could have been a hunting soft point) based on the comments by the FBI. Why can't you stay on topic?
Tague had nothing to do with moving up the back wound. The two things are unrelated. The WC had to lie and move up the back wound because they knew it was lower than the throat wound and when Specter made up the SBT the bullet must leave Kennedy on a downward course to hit Connally.
There was NO need for the SBT until the issue of Tague came up. Before that they had three wounds and three bullets.
THAT"s when they decided to lie and move the wound up to the neck. Before that it was always in the upper back.
The wounding of Tague necessitated the need for a SBT theory, and to make this work they needed the wound to be at the T-1 level.
I don't believe the Tague wounding was caused by a fragment from the head shot, but that seems to be the most popular theory of the WC defenders. At least they have the bullet break up so that only a lead fragment hits the curb.
And yet the other bullet supposedly hit two bones and did NOT break up in the least.
>>This is but one witness who describes a wound similar to the one noted on the Naval Death Certificate. That's YOUR interpretation of what level you think their descriptions represent. I stand by my remark. Burkley was the ONLY one who put T-3 in writing. >>Do you think Burkley just signed a Death Certificate that said this without conferring with the doctors at PH? Of course not. Don't be silly. But the autopsy doctors did not tell him T-3. That was his own idea. Do you think Burkley just signed a Death Certificate that said this without seeing the body himself? >>Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column. You are still confused. He said 6 inches below the neckline, not 6 inches to the right-hand side of the spinal column. >>So you are saying there is NOT a standard 6.5 mm cartridge (whether it be a 50.5 version or a 54 version) that WORKS IN ALL THE TYPES OF WEAPONS you listed? Correct. You can not interchange different length cartridges. The cartridge must fit each particular chamber precisely, not too short, not too long. >>THERE IS NO AMMO JUST FOR THE MANNLICHER-CARCANO Again you don't know what the Hell you are talking about and just SHOUTING does not make you correct. Ammo is sold in the same caliber for different models of rifle and they are not interchangeable. There may be several models which all use the same cartridge, but the 6.5 x 52.5 ammo can only be used in the Carcano, the Breda and the Fiat-Revelli. >>We are discussing a FMJ bullet here No, you were discussing the cartridges not the bullet. Maybe you don't know the difference between a cartridge and a bullet. As for the SBT in mid April 1964 the WC was preparing to conclude three shots three hits. They had no concept of what caused the injury to Tague. Everything was fine and dandy until Specter realized there was not enough time for Oswald's rifle to fire two shots with 30 Zapruder frames. That is what caused the SBT. They could easily have said as some WC defenders have that a fragment from the head shot wounded Tague and still had no need for a SBT. First shot hits Kennedy, second shot hits Connally, last shot hits Kennedy's head and a fragment hits the curb near Tague. >>This is but one witness who describes a wound similar to the one noted on the Naval Death Certificate. That's YOUR interpretation of what level you think their descriptions represent.
I stand by my remark. Burkley was the ONLY one who put T-3 in writing.So you "stand by" your silly comment that Burkley would sign a document HE did not check on with the doctors who actually worked on JFK? My interpretation has NOTHING to do with it as Hill's comment is quite clear for everyone to see! Representative BOGGS. Did you see any other wound other than the head wound? Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column. >>Do you think Burkley just signed a Death Certificate that said this without conferring with the doctors at PH? Of course not. Don't be silly. But the autopsy doctors did not tell him T-3. That was his own idea. He is INSISTING he did but for me to mention it is "silly!" YOU are saying he just put that in and signed it without looking at the body or conferring with the PH doctors! YOU are the silly one! Do you think Burkley just signed a Death Certificate that said this without seeing the body himself? >>Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column. You are still confused. He said 6 inches below the neckline, not 6 inches to the right-hand side of the spinal column.What part of "right-hand side" of the spinal column is confusing you? >>So you are saying there is NOT a standard 6.5 mm cartridge (whether it be a 50.5 version or a 54 version) that WORKS IN ALL THE TYPES OF WEAPONS you listed? Correct. You can not interchange different length cartridges.
The cartridge must fit each particular chamber precisely, not too short, not too long.Of course you can't, BUT WHO IS SAYING THAT YOU CAN? What you can't do is call a 6.5 mm cartridge (no matter what type it is -- i.e. 50.5, etc...) a CARCANO CARTRIDGE. The Carcano was a WEAPON, NOT AN AMMO TYPE!>>THERE IS NO AMMO JUST FOR THE MANNLICHER-CARCANO Again you don't know what the Hell you are talking about and just SHOUTING does not make you correct.
Ammo is sold in the same caliber for different models of rifle and they are not interchangeable.
There may be several models which all use the same cartridge, but the 6.5 x 52.5 ammo can only be used in the Carcano, the Breda and the Fiat-Revelli.YOU are the Tony as you are confusing "using" with my comment. MY comment was there was "no such thing as a Mannlicher-Carcano ammo" as ANY STANDARD 6.5 MM AMMO that fit the specs of that gun could be used! The makers of the ammo for the alleged murder weapon was the WWC so you will have to CITE OR QUOTE them saying they called this ammo "Mannlicher-Carcano Ammo!" It could be used IN that weapon of course, but it could also be used in OTHER WEAPONS that used that same caliber type. Just how slow are you? >>We are discussing a FMJ bullet here No, you were discussing the cartridges not the bullet.
Maybe you don't know the difference between a cartridge and a bullet.Maybe you should quit while you are behind as the WHOLE POINT OF THE POST WAS TO DISCUSS THE BULLET THAT HIT THE CURB! NO one, but you of course, said a CARTRIDGE hit the curb and that was what they tested for! Excuse my "shouting" but when you discuss things with people like you who make silly statements that have no bearing in fact you have to! Then of course it is all my fault to boot. >> YOU are the one ignorant of the facts in this case Tony as there is no Carcano ammo!
It says right on the box "6.5 x 52 Carcano."
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NOW that you have hijacked and sidetracked the main point of this thread you should be happy with yourself. Of course the Carcano line of weapons used 6.5 mm x 52 mm size, BUT THEY DID NOT MANUFACTURE THIS AMMO THEMSELVES! that was my point and like several others I have talked with on ACJ you have taken a simple point and turned it into a MAJOR DISTRACTION. Good job Tony.
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November 07, 2010, 05:00:03 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 8302
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Anthony Marsh said Admiral Burkley "had no idea where T-3 was." What makes you believe that a physician would not know where the vertebraes are? Mr. Burkley was not just any physician. He was the physician of three Presidents: Eisenhower, Kennedy and LBJ. I don't even think you referred once in this thread to Mr. Burkley as a physician. You simply called him an admiral, as if he were some dumb military guy with no medical background.
Good point Andres, Tony is here to sidetrack the discussion, nothing more.
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November 07, 2010, 10:13:35 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 2203
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Specter invented the SBT and then the WC realized the back wound was too low to allow his SBT to work.
So Ford did a little damage control and rewrote the WCR. Exactly! But the thread title is a bit odd here. It should contain the actual question.
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chase the truth and the devil will overtake you
politics is a conspiracy by nature
listen to jazz
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November 08, 2010, 01:06:48 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 6711
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For Tony Marsh!
You never seem to know what you are talking about. Who "duly noted" the back wound at T-3? Only one person, Admiral Burkley and he did not examine the body carefully. He just signed the death certificate. He had no idea where T-3 was nor do you.
Tony, YOU never seem to what you are talking about! This is but one witness who describes a wound similar to the one noted on the Naval Death Certificate.
Representative BOGGS. Did you see any other wound other than the head wound?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column.
A bullet coming down at 18 degrees and hitting near T-3 would have blasted through that vertebra and smashed into the manubrium, neither of which were injured. You may think this was an official conclusion. It was not. It was just a guess.
Then all you have to do is cite or quote Burkley saying this. When can I expect that?
Then you made it worse by saying, "The wound in the back of JFK was duly noted as being in the back below the shoulders at the T-3 level about 4 to 6 inches to the RIGHT of the spine. "
What is this?
Representative BOGGS. Did you see any other wound other than the head wound?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column.
Why do you make silly comments like and then try and make it seem like I am the kooky one? Surely you don't think Burkley signed a Death Certificate stating this WITHOUT conferring with the PH doctors since he did NOT personally work on JFK? I hope not.
You are extremely confused. That 4 to 6 inches was never about the location to the right of the spine. It was a wide range of guesses about how far DOWN the wound was, depending on whether you buy the WC defender lies about his jacket being bunched up. With or without the bunch the wound is always 1-3/4 inches to the right of the MIDLINE. We can and should debate for the next decade exactly how far down on the back the wound really was. But it was never measured correctly. So all we can do now is guess and try to reconstruct its location.
The ONLY one that seems confused is YOU!
Representative BOGGS. Did you see any other wound other than the head wound?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column.
You wrote: (it should be noted there was NO such thing as Mannlicher-Carcano cartridges, there was simply 6.5 mm cartridges)
That is simply not true. You know nothing about ballistics and ammunition. There are many types of 6.5 cartridges each incompatible with each other. Different model rifles all 6.5 mm nominally use different cartridges and you can't use one in a different model rifle. Oswald's rifle used the 6.5 x 52.5 mm cartridge.The Greek Mannlicher and Schoenaur used the 6.5 x 53.5 mm cartridge. The Dutch Mannlicher used the 6.5 x 54 mm cartridge.
Tony is on a roll today! YOU are the one ignorant of the facts in this case Tony as there is no Carcano ammo! The Carcano is a WEAPON not an ammo type. The WCC (along with other companies) made 6.5 mm cartridges, but they were NOT called "Carcano cartridges" as ANY weapon that fires a 6.5 mm round can use them.
Just how clueless are you?
The Swedish Mauser used the 6.5 x 54 mm cartridge. The Portuguese Mauser used the 6.5 x 58 mm cartridge. The Japanese rifle used the 6.5 x 50.5 cartridge. In addition to the size difference there are minor differences in design. For example when shopping for Carcano ammo I was able to instantly spot the original Italian SMI ammo when I saw the crimps on the neck. There are also some telltale differences in quality of design and craftsmanship. And of course you can often tell the difference by the headstamping on each cartridge.
So you are saying there is NOT a standard 6.5 mm cartridge (whether it be a 50.5 version or a 54 version) that WORKS IN ALL THE TYPES OF WEAPONS you listed?
That is my point! THERE IS NO AMMO JUST FOR THE MANNLICHER-CARCANO (even the Mannlicher is not really needed)!
It's not even realistic to claim that there are only 6.5 mm bullets. Aside from the obvious differences between a hunting round and a FMJ, there are small difference amongst the same type of hunting bullet or FMJ bullet according to brand. FBI agent Robert Frazier was able to tell instantly that the recovered bullets were WCC M-C without seeing the cartridges. The DPD wasn't even able to identify the caliber or coating of the Walker bullet.
We are discussing a FMJ bullet here (although it could have been a hunting soft point) based on the comments by the FBI. Why can't you stay on topic?
Tague had nothing to do with moving up the back wound. The two things are unrelated. The WC had to lie and move up the back wound because they knew it was lower than the throat wound and when Specter made up the SBT the bullet must leave Kennedy on a downward course to hit Connally.
There was NO need for the SBT until the issue of Tague came up. Before that they had three wounds and three bullets.
THAT"s when they decided to lie and move the wound up to the neck. Before that it was always in the upper back.
The wounding of Tague necessitated the need for a SBT theory, and to make this work they needed the wound to be at the T-1 level.
I don't believe the Tague wounding was caused by a fragment from the head shot, but that seems to be the most popular theory of the WC defenders. At least they have the bullet break up so that only a lead fragment hits the curb.
And yet the other bullet supposedly hit two bones and did NOT break up in the least.
>>This is but one witness who describes a wound similar to the one noted on the Naval Death Certificate. That's YOUR interpretation of what level you think their descriptions represent. I stand by my remark. Burkley was the ONLY one who put T-3 in writing. >>Do you think Burkley just signed a Death Certificate that said this without conferring with the doctors at PH? Of course not. Don't be silly. But the autopsy doctors did not tell him T-3. That was his own idea. Do you think Burkley just signed a Death Certificate that said this without seeing the body himself? >>Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column. You are still confused. He said 6 inches below the neckline, not 6 inches to the right-hand side of the spinal column. >>So you are saying there is NOT a standard 6.5 mm cartridge (whether it be a 50.5 version or a 54 version) that WORKS IN ALL THE TYPES OF WEAPONS you listed? Correct. You can not interchange different length cartridges. The cartridge must fit each particular chamber precisely, not too short, not too long. >>THERE IS NO AMMO JUST FOR THE MANNLICHER-CARCANO Again you don't know what the Hell you are talking about and just SHOUTING does not make you correct. Ammo is sold in the same caliber for different models of rifle and they are not interchangeable. There may be several models which all use the same cartridge, but the 6.5 x 52.5 ammo can only be used in the Carcano, the Breda and the Fiat-Revelli. >>We are discussing a FMJ bullet here No, you were discussing the cartridges not the bullet. Maybe you don't know the difference between a cartridge and a bullet. As for the SBT in mid April 1964 the WC was preparing to conclude three shots three hits. They had no concept of what caused the injury to Tague. Everything was fine and dandy until Specter realized there was not enough time for Oswald's rifle to fire two shots with 30 Zapruder frames. That is what caused the SBT. They could easily have said as some WC defenders have that a fragment from the head shot wounded Tague and still had no need for a SBT. First shot hits Kennedy, second shot hits Connally, last shot hits Kennedy's head and a fragment hits the curb near Tague. >>This is but one witness who describes a wound similar to the one noted on the Naval Death Certificate. That's YOUR interpretation of what level you think their descriptions represent.
I stand by my remark. Burkley was the ONLY one who put T-3 in writing.So you "stand by" your silly comment that Burkley would sign a document HE did not check on with the doctors who actually worked on JFK? My interpretation has NOTHING to do with it as Hill's comment is quite clear for everyone to see! Representative BOGGS. Did you see any other wound other than the head wound? Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column. >>Do you think Burkley just signed a Death Certificate that said this without conferring with the doctors at PH? Of course not. Don't be silly. But the autopsy doctors did not tell him T-3. That was his own idea. He is INSISTING he did but for me to mention it is "silly!" YOU are saying he just put that in and signed it without looking at the body or conferring with the PH doctors! YOU are the silly one! Do you think Burkley just signed a Death Certificate that said this without seeing the body himself? >>Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column. You are still confused. He said 6 inches below the neckline, not 6 inches to the right-hand side of the spinal column.What part of "right-hand side" of the spinal column is confusing you? >>So you are saying there is NOT a standard 6.5 mm cartridge (whether it be a 50.5 version or a 54 version) that WORKS IN ALL THE TYPES OF WEAPONS you listed? Correct. You can not interchange different length cartridges.
The cartridge must fit each particular chamber precisely, not too short, not too long.Of course you can't, BUT WHO IS SAYING THAT YOU CAN? What you can't do is call a 6.5 mm cartridge (no matter what type it is -- i.e. 50.5, etc...) a CARCANO CARTRIDGE. The Carcano was a WEAPON, NOT AN AMMO TYPE!>>THERE IS NO AMMO JUST FOR THE MANNLICHER-CARCANO Again you don't know what the Hell you are talking about and just SHOUTING does not make you correct.
Ammo is sold in the same caliber for different models of rifle and they are not interchangeable.
There may be several models which all use the same cartridge, but the 6.5 x 52.5 ammo can only be used in the Carcano, the Breda and the Fiat-Revelli.YOU are the Tony as you are confusing "using" with my comment. MY comment was there was "no such thing as a Mannlicher-Carcano ammo" as ANY STANDARD 6.5 MM AMMO that fit the specs of that gun could be used! The makers of the ammo for the alleged murder weapon was the WWC so you will have to CITE OR QUOTE them saying they called this ammo "Mannlicher-Carcano Ammo!" It could be used IN that weapon of course, but it could also be used in OTHER WEAPONS that used that same caliber type. Just how slow are you? >>We are discussing a FMJ bullet here No, you were discussing the cartridges not the bullet.
Maybe you don't know the difference between a cartridge and a bullet.Maybe you should quit while you are behind as the WHOLE POINT OF THE POST WAS TO DISCUSS THE BULLET THAT HIT THE CURB! NO one, but you of course, said a CARTRIDGE hit the curb and that was what they tested for! Excuse my "shouting" but when you discuss things with people like you who make silly statements that have no bearing in fact you have to! Then of course it is all my fault to boot. >> So you "stand by" your silly comment that Burkley would sign a document HE did not check on with the doctors who actually worked on JFK? Yes. T-3 was added by Burkley. The autopsy doctors did not say T-3/ Hill did not say T-3 either. That is your interpretation. >> What part of "right-hand side" of the spinal column is confusing you? The fact that you made a simple mistake and said 6 inches to the right of the spine when you meant 6 inches down. And you're not man enough to admit it. >> YOU are the Tony as you are confusing "using" with my comment. MY comment was there was "no such thing as a Mannlicher-Carcano ammo" as ANY STANDARD 6.5 MM AMMO that fit the specs of that gun could be used! The makers of the ammo for the alleged murder weapon was the WWC so you will have to CITE OR QUOTE them saying they called this ammo "Mannlicher-Carcano Ammo!" You are a liar. Here is exactly what you originally said: "(it should be noted there was NO such thing as Mannlicher-Carcano cartridges, there was simply 6.5 mm cartridges)" You did not qualify it by your later statement about fitting the specs of that gun. You made that up ONLY after you realized your mistake. It could be used IN that weapon of course, but it could also be used in OTHER WEAPONS that used that same caliber type. Not what you said originally. You said that any 6.5 mm cartridge would work in the Mannlicher-Carcano. You made a simple mistake and said CARTRIDGE when you meant BULLET. But you're not man enough to admit that. And I already uploded a photograph of the WCC ammo boxes which say MANNLICHER-CARCANO. As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or LoginBut again you are not man enough to take a look and admit it. You lose again. >> Maybe you should quit while you are behind as the WHOLE POINT OF THE POST WAS TO DISCUSS THE BULLET THAT HIT THE CURB! NO one, but you of course, said a CARTRIDGE hit the curb and that was what they tested for! I said no such thing. You are a liar. The only thing I was correcting was when you said cartridge instead of bullet. You can fire any non-jacketed bullet you want at the curb and it doesn't even have to be a Mannlicher-Carcano. MY correction of your errors has absolutely nothing to do with what hit the curb.
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« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 01:26:43 AM by Anthony Marsh »
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November 08, 2010, 01:15:03 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 6711
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For Tony Marsh!
You never seem to know what you are talking about. Who "duly noted" the back wound at T-3? Only one person, Admiral Burkley and he did not examine the body carefully. He just signed the death certificate. He had no idea where T-3 was nor do you.
Tony, YOU never seem to what you are talking about! This is but one witness who describes a wound similar to the one noted on the Naval Death Certificate.
Representative BOGGS. Did you see any other wound other than the head wound?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column.
A bullet coming down at 18 degrees and hitting near T-3 would have blasted through that vertebra and smashed into the manubrium, neither of which were injured. You may think this was an official conclusion. It was not. It was just a guess.
Then all you have to do is cite or quote Burkley saying this. When can I expect that?
Then you made it worse by saying, "The wound in the back of JFK was duly noted as being in the back below the shoulders at the T-3 level about 4 to 6 inches to the RIGHT of the spine. "
What is this?
Representative BOGGS. Did you see any other wound other than the head wound?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column.
Why do you make silly comments like and then try and make it seem like I am the kooky one? Surely you don't think Burkley signed a Death Certificate stating this WITHOUT conferring with the PH doctors since he did NOT personally work on JFK? I hope not.
You are extremely confused. That 4 to 6 inches was never about the location to the right of the spine. It was a wide range of guesses about how far DOWN the wound was, depending on whether you buy the WC defender lies about his jacket being bunched up. With or without the bunch the wound is always 1-3/4 inches to the right of the MIDLINE. We can and should debate for the next decade exactly how far down on the back the wound really was. But it was never measured correctly. So all we can do now is guess and try to reconstruct its location.
The ONLY one that seems confused is YOU!
Representative BOGGS. Did you see any other wound other than the head wound?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column.
You wrote: (it should be noted there was NO such thing as Mannlicher-Carcano cartridges, there was simply 6.5 mm cartridges)
That is simply not true. You know nothing about ballistics and ammunition. There are many types of 6.5 cartridges each incompatible with each other. Different model rifles all 6.5 mm nominally use different cartridges and you can't use one in a different model rifle. Oswald's rifle used the 6.5 x 52.5 mm cartridge.The Greek Mannlicher and Schoenaur used the 6.5 x 53.5 mm cartridge. The Dutch Mannlicher used the 6.5 x 54 mm cartridge.
Tony is on a roll today! YOU are the one ignorant of the facts in this case Tony as there is no Carcano ammo! The Carcano is a WEAPON not an ammo type. The WCC (along with other companies) made 6.5 mm cartridges, but they were NOT called "Carcano cartridges" as ANY weapon that fires a 6.5 mm round can use them.
Just how clueless are you?
The Swedish Mauser used the 6.5 x 54 mm cartridge. The Portuguese Mauser used the 6.5 x 58 mm cartridge. The Japanese rifle used the 6.5 x 50.5 cartridge. In addition to the size difference there are minor differences in design. For example when shopping for Carcano ammo I was able to instantly spot the original Italian SMI ammo when I saw the crimps on the neck. There are also some telltale differences in quality of design and craftsmanship. And of course you can often tell the difference by the headstamping on each cartridge.
So you are saying there is NOT a standard 6.5 mm cartridge (whether it be a 50.5 version or a 54 version) that WORKS IN ALL THE TYPES OF WEAPONS you listed?
That is my point! THERE IS NO AMMO JUST FOR THE MANNLICHER-CARCANO (even the Mannlicher is not really needed)!
It's not even realistic to claim that there are only 6.5 mm bullets. Aside from the obvious differences between a hunting round and a FMJ, there are small difference amongst the same type of hunting bullet or FMJ bullet according to brand. FBI agent Robert Frazier was able to tell instantly that the recovered bullets were WCC M-C without seeing the cartridges. The DPD wasn't even able to identify the caliber or coating of the Walker bullet.
We are discussing a FMJ bullet here (although it could have been a hunting soft point) based on the comments by the FBI. Why can't you stay on topic?
Tague had nothing to do with moving up the back wound. The two things are unrelated. The WC had to lie and move up the back wound because they knew it was lower than the throat wound and when Specter made up the SBT the bullet must leave Kennedy on a downward course to hit Connally.
There was NO need for the SBT until the issue of Tague came up. Before that they had three wounds and three bullets.
THAT"s when they decided to lie and move the wound up to the neck. Before that it was always in the upper back.
The wounding of Tague necessitated the need for a SBT theory, and to make this work they needed the wound to be at the T-1 level.
I don't believe the Tague wounding was caused by a fragment from the head shot, but that seems to be the most popular theory of the WC defenders. At least they have the bullet break up so that only a lead fragment hits the curb.
And yet the other bullet supposedly hit two bones and did NOT break up in the least.
>>This is but one witness who describes a wound similar to the one noted on the Naval Death Certificate. That's YOUR interpretation of what level you think their descriptions represent. I stand by my remark. Burkley was the ONLY one who put T-3 in writing. >>Do you think Burkley just signed a Death Certificate that said this without conferring with the doctors at PH? Of course not. Don't be silly. But the autopsy doctors did not tell him T-3. That was his own idea. Do you think Burkley just signed a Death Certificate that said this without seeing the body himself? >>Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column. You are still confused. He said 6 inches below the neckline, not 6 inches to the right-hand side of the spinal column. >>So you are saying there is NOT a standard 6.5 mm cartridge (whether it be a 50.5 version or a 54 version) that WORKS IN ALL THE TYPES OF WEAPONS you listed? Correct. You can not interchange different length cartridges. The cartridge must fit each particular chamber precisely, not too short, not too long. >>THERE IS NO AMMO JUST FOR THE MANNLICHER-CARCANO Again you don't know what the Hell you are talking about and just SHOUTING does not make you correct. Ammo is sold in the same caliber for different models of rifle and they are not interchangeable. There may be several models which all use the same cartridge, but the 6.5 x 52.5 ammo can only be used in the Carcano, the Breda and the Fiat-Revelli. >>We are discussing a FMJ bullet here No, you were discussing the cartridges not the bullet. Maybe you don't know the difference between a cartridge and a bullet. As for the SBT in mid April 1964 the WC was preparing to conclude three shots three hits. They had no concept of what caused the injury to Tague. Everything was fine and dandy until Specter realized there was not enough time for Oswald's rifle to fire two shots with 30 Zapruder frames. That is what caused the SBT. They could easily have said as some WC defenders have that a fragment from the head shot wounded Tague and still had no need for a SBT. First shot hits Kennedy, second shot hits Connally, last shot hits Kennedy's head and a fragment hits the curb near Tague. >>This is but one witness who describes a wound similar to the one noted on the Naval Death Certificate. That's YOUR interpretation of what level you think their descriptions represent.
I stand by my remark. Burkley was the ONLY one who put T-3 in writing.So you "stand by" your silly comment that Burkley would sign a document HE did not check on with the doctors who actually worked on JFK? My interpretation has NOTHING to do with it as Hill's comment is quite clear for everyone to see! Representative BOGGS. Did you see any other wound other than the head wound? Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column. >>Do you think Burkley just signed a Death Certificate that said this without conferring with the doctors at PH? Of course not. Don't be silly. But the autopsy doctors did not tell him T-3. That was his own idea. He is INSISTING he did but for me to mention it is "silly!" YOU are saying he just put that in and signed it without looking at the body or conferring with the PH doctors! YOU are the silly one! Do you think Burkley just signed a Death Certificate that said this without seeing the body himself? >>Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column. You are still confused. He said 6 inches below the neckline, not 6 inches to the right-hand side of the spinal column.What part of "right-hand side" of the spinal column is confusing you? >>So you are saying there is NOT a standard 6.5 mm cartridge (whether it be a 50.5 version or a 54 version) that WORKS IN ALL THE TYPES OF WEAPONS you listed? Correct. You can not interchange different length cartridges.
The cartridge must fit each particular chamber precisely, not too short, not too long.Of course you can't, BUT WHO IS SAYING THAT YOU CAN? What you can't do is call a 6.5 mm cartridge (no matter what type it is -- i.e. 50.5, etc...) a CARCANO CARTRIDGE. The Carcano was a WEAPON, NOT AN AMMO TYPE!>>THERE IS NO AMMO JUST FOR THE MANNLICHER-CARCANO Again you don't know what the Hell you are talking about and just SHOUTING does not make you correct.
Ammo is sold in the same caliber for different models of rifle and they are not interchangeable.
There may be several models which all use the same cartridge, but the 6.5 x 52.5 ammo can only be used in the Carcano, the Breda and the Fiat-Revelli.YOU are the Tony as you are confusing "using" with my comment. MY comment was there was "no such thing as a Mannlicher-Carcano ammo" as ANY STANDARD 6.5 MM AMMO that fit the specs of that gun could be used! The makers of the ammo for the alleged murder weapon was the WWC so you will have to CITE OR QUOTE them saying they called this ammo "Mannlicher-Carcano Ammo!" It could be used IN that weapon of course, but it could also be used in OTHER WEAPONS that used that same caliber type. Just how slow are you? >>We are discussing a FMJ bullet here No, you were discussing the cartridges not the bullet.
Maybe you don't know the difference between a cartridge and a bullet.Maybe you should quit while you are behind as the WHOLE POINT OF THE POST WAS TO DISCUSS THE BULLET THAT HIT THE CURB! NO one, but you of course, said a CARTRIDGE hit the curb and that was what they tested for! Excuse my "shouting" but when you discuss things with people like you who make silly statements that have no bearing in fact you have to! Then of course it is all my fault to boot. >> YOU are the one ignorant of the facts in this case Tony as there is no Carcano ammo!
It says right on the box "6.5 x 52 Carcano."
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NOW that you have hijacked and sidetracked the main point of this thread you should be happy with yourself. Of course the Carcano line of weapons used 6.5 mm x 52 mm size, BUT THEY DID NOT MANUFACTURE THIS AMMO THEMSELVES! that was my point and like several others I have talked with on ACJ you have taken a simple point and turned it into a MAJOR DISTRACTION. Good job Tony. Of course ammo does not manufacture itself. What kind of silly point it that? Companies, plants manufacture the ammo. SMI originally manufactured ammo for the Italian rifles. WCC did so to fulfill a special contract for the CIA.
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November 08, 2010, 09:26:23 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 8302
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For Tony Marsh: >> So you "stand by" your silly comment that Burkley would sign a document HE did not check on with the doctors who actually worked on JFK?Yes. T-3 was added by Burkley. The autopsy doctors did not say T-3/Hill did not say T-3 either. That is your interpretation.How silly! They can take a ruler and count the level of vertebrae for themselves. YOU are playing games Tony! The point is the wound seen by quite a few people did NOT match the location the WC would later claim. >> What part of "right-hand side" of the spinal column is confusing you? The fact that you made a simple mistake and said 6 inches to the right of the spine when you meant 6 inches down.
And you're not man enough to admit it.I made no mistake, simply because Burkely did not elaborate this point does NOT mean it was not seen by the PH doctors to be there. Even Hill described it to be there. >> YOU are the Tony as you are confusing "using" with my comment. MY comment was there was "no such thing as a Mannlicher-Carcano ammo" as ANY STANDARD 6.5 MM AMMO that fit the specs of that gun could be used! The makers of the ammo for the alleged murder weapon was the WWC so you will have to CITE OR QUOTE them saying they called this ammo "Mannlicher-Carcano Ammo!"You are a liar. Here is exactly what you originally said:
"(it should be noted there was NO such thing as Mannlicher-Carcano cartridges, there was simply 6.5 mm cartridges)"
You did not qualify it by your later statement about fitting the specs of that gun.
You made that up ONLY after you realized your mistake.Wrong as usual Tony. The Carcano uses a 6.5 mm x 52 mm cartridge but they do not make the bullets so there is NO "Carcano bullet"! There is a 6.5 mm x 52 mm bullet MADE FOR THE CARCANO! I am not the only person who has pointed this out over the last 47 years either. It could be used IN that weapon of course, but it could also be used in OTHER WEAPONS that used that same caliber type. Not what you said originally. You said that any 6.5 mm cartridge would work in the Mannlicher-Carcano.
You made a simple mistake and said CARTRIDGE when you meant BULLET.
But you're not man enough to admit that.
And I already uploded a photograph of the WCC ammo boxes which say MANNLICHER-CARCANO. As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login
But again you are not man enough to take a look and admit it.
You lose again.It is what I said, you just can't understand my point. The Carcan manufacturing company made RIFLES, NOT bullets. Just because a bullet was made to FIT it does NOT make it a CARCANO BULLET! There are many weapons that share the same caliber and they all use the SAME ammo. >> Maybe you should quit while you are behind as the WHOLE POINT OF THE POST WAS TO DISCUSS THE BULLET THAT HIT THE CURB! NO one, but you of course, said a CARTRIDGE hit the curb and that was what they tested for!I said no such thing. You are a liar. The only thing I was correcting was when you said cartridge instead of bullet. You can fire any non-jacketed bullet you want at the curb and it doesn't even have to be a Mannlicher-Carcano.
MY correction of your errors has absolutely nothing to do with what hit the curb.You're the one that keeps saying cartridge when the topic is bullet.
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