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Eyes Closed.-The Case against Gerald Posner. Gary Mack. Fourth Decade. Nov.1993, (Read 1592 times)

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Miles Scull

December 27, 2008, 08:19:34 PM

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The crop below is from an article by Gary Mack:

The ("object") light reflection points are seen to drop behind the wall as seen here:

The following studies below show the extreme improbability that the dropping light reflection points are from a falling human:

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Martin Hinrichs

December 28, 2008, 01:01:44 AM

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Posts: 2660

Hi Miles :)

Your illustration shows how impossible a human moving directly behind the wall could be.
Well, if you place the alleged person more towards the fence...then you have a scaling problem.

Apart from that, such a linear moving from a human body is very very unlikely. Falling or not.

So, i agree with you ;)

Martin

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God bless Emmett Till:
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Insipired by the Movie "Invictus" and Nelson Mandela.
What a poem!

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Miles Scull

December 28, 2008, 01:46:31 AM

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Thank you, Martin.

One possibility might be considered: that the "human" might be falling down away from Nix; so that his head would not hit the wall.

Couple of problems with that interpretation:

1.) The descending reflection light points seem to be the same size and the same brightness throughout the falling sequence.

2.) If a person had fallen down in this way, then his view of the passing limo would have been blocked by the short leg of the wall.

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Martin Hinrichs

December 28, 2008, 03:17:48 AM

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2.) If a person had fallen down in this way, then his view of the passing limo would have been blocked by the short leg of the wall.

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+ A fallen person have to take care of his body instead of watching a pink woman behind the short leg of the wall which blocked the view. ;D

Impossible

Martin

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Miles Scull

December 29, 2008, 11:21:41 PM

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Posts: 8748

hat;;

#78525, "RE: Mack Article Mentions Groden's Nix Blowups"
In response to Reply # 29
Mon Dec-29-08 09:59 PMby Miles Scull

>
>>with a few added comments by Martin Hinrichs & me by way
>of
>>considering possible interpretations.
>
>With all due respect to Martin ... he has not viewed the
>film that Groden, Bierma, and I watched in the lab.
>
>Bill Miller

On the advice of several members, it should be said that first of all no one, in the debate, is impugning anyone else's honesty.

That said, it is possible to make simple logical observations which are self-evidently clear & correct.

If the raw data is not available to examine & test, then it is impossible to debate conclusions drawn from that data, because that data is nonexistent.

If the raw data is available to examine & test, then it is possible to debate conclusions drawn from that data, because that data exists.

Therefore, the question of what is seen or not seen or only partially seen in the so called "better" Nix copies is irrelevant to the current debate,

because while these copies may one day be revealed to the public they so far have not been & are currently nonexistent in the strict sense. They are hearsay.

In deference to fair play, however, can Bill can identify among these frames

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which frames are showing the movements described by Bill as:

"...this individual just didn't pivot over onto his side, but rather turned and bolted away and down from the camera." - Miller ?

Which frames are involved? Those are the "better" copy frames, of course, which were reportedly viewed in the lab.

Surely, one knew which frames one was viewing, as that would have been absolutely critical for sequence chronology & time referencing to other photographs & films.

Then anyone (Martin Hinrichs or me) can take another look here with various modern cad software. Thanks!

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Martin Hinrichs

December 30, 2008, 12:51:47 AM

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Miles, i've read this on Lancer.
Mhhh...sure didn't watched the film Bill is mentioning.
It's hard to face an evidence which is not available.

I/You need to know/see what Bill Miller is talking about, then we can step further.

Quote from: Miles Scull

Then anyone (Martin Hinrichs or me) can take another look here with various modern cad software. Thanks!

Yes, no problem.
All what we need is some touchable facts.

Martin

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John B Beckham

February 06, 2009, 09:23:33 PM

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well, not a fact, but, what about Ralph Yarboroughs story about seeing a man hit the dirt? just wondering...

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Martin Hinrichs

February 06, 2009, 09:48:07 PM

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well, not a fact, but, what about Ralph Yarboroughs story about seeing a man hit the dirt? just wondering...

Did he say "dirt"? Or ground?

Yarboroughs position was too far away from the alleged GA jump at that time.
He propably saw Mr. Newman hits the grass.

Martin

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John B Beckham

February 06, 2009, 09:52:57 PM

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yes, that's a possibilty. i'll try to find Ralphs story in full. i don't recall him saying exactly where he saw this man hit "ground" or "dirt"!

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Miles Scull

February 06, 2009, 09:57:07 PM

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yes, that's a possibilty. i'll try to find Ralphs story in full. i don't recall him saying exactly where he saw this man hit "ground" or "dirt"!

Alex Visosky
Sun Nov-16-08 10:44 PM
Member since Nov 02nd 2004
228 posts
#77391, "RE: THE DIVING MAN"
In response to Reply # 13

All,
Agent Johns was in the VP's security follow-up car driven by Joe H Rich of the Texas Highway Patrol with VP Johnson Aide Cliff Carter seated next to him and SA Jerry D Kivett seated next to the front right door. SA Warren W Taylor was seated in the rear left seat with ATSAIC Thomas L Johns seated in the rear right seat. Although five men occupied the same car their individual report brings to light that the very first sound each heard was not identical for all occupants riding in the car. Agent Johns and Taylor both heard and automatically reacted to the same very first sound by opening their door. Johns' described the sound as a shot and Taylor spoke of the sound as a bang like a firecracker. By the time Taylor's foot reached the road he heard two more bangs while Johns in the same 2-3 seconds only recalled two shots and saw a man to his right drop to the ground after the second shot, then he jumped from the car. Although Taylor reported Johns had stumbled to the road Johns only admitted having difficulty getting out of the car. The amused look on some spectator faces caught in Altgens 6 seem to support Taylor. After he collected himself Johns then heard a third shot after he was outside of the car while starting his attempt to run toward the VP car. Having missed any prior sounds the three occupants in the front seat heard their very first sound Kivett described as an extremely large firecracker that had to be the first open muzzle blast heard at the same instant by the occupants in the VP car ahead and the sound that would have been Taylor's third and Johns' second sound. Altgens 6 caught the scene at Z255 after Altgens said he had already heard the firecrackers he thought were in celebration of the President's arrival and when as Altgens said he took his picture as a reaction to the first loud shot he heard that was the same first sound that startled the three front seat occupants in the VP follow-up car and the sound that triggered Agent Kivett to open then exit from his door to start his run to the VP car. He heard two more shots after he had exited the car and then saw the movements in the President's limo so he returned to sit in the back seat of the follow-up car and ordered the driver to speed up. He never mentioned running into Johns. One commom thread in all the reports is no one reported hearing more than three shots that was the official limit. Taylor did not leave the car as his assignment was Mrs Johnson and with Kivett and Johns also in motion he likely realized there was no room in the VP car for all of them plus Youngblood. Fractions of a second after Altgens 6 was taken at Z255 and before any more shots were heard Youngblood ordered the occupants in the back seat of the VP car to duck their heads down before he himself moved to the rear seat to cover VP Johnson.

Cliff Carter said their car was along side the TSBD when he heard his first sound. Agent Kivett heard his first sound and estimated the motorcade at that precise moment had reached 1/3 the way down to the overpass that can only be interpreted to mean the President's limo had reached that approximated position. Driver Rich heard the same sound but did not report any location. In the back seat Agent Taylor reported he heard his first sound when the car had made the turn, which was a wide centre lane sweeping turn through the intersection of Elm and Houston Streets. Agent Johns was more detailed and reported the car was on a slight downhill curve to the right with a grassy area slopping upward to a small 2 or 3 foot concrete wall with sidewalk area he could see from his rear right seat. IMO these descriptions have confused the issue for years.

The following two pictures show the view Johns would have quickly seen from the right rear seat. The first picture shows the location he described with a sidewalk area including the short section of the wall that was parallel to Elm St that he referred to as the small 2-3 foot concrete wall. The second picture shows how the street ahead would have given Johns the impression the road was flowing to the right before moving to the left. The third picture shows F Lee Mudd in the background just above Kellerman's head and shows spectators sitting on the small concrete wall Johns referred to in his report.

It must be considered that when the first of the next and last two audible shots were heard Yarborough's head was ducked down among four people in the rear seat with little chance to see anyone drop to the ground. It would have been only after the VP car had picked up speed that Yarborough would have felt safe and have a chance to glimpse out and recall seeing spectators on the ground after he passed the Stemmons sign. He had already seen the man dive toward the small wall and recall it years later and start what seems IMO to be endless discussions and waste of brain power.

IMO Johns and Yarborough both saw Lee Mudd dive toward the small wall that was 10+ feet away from the Elm St sidewalk as shown in the following photograph of the grass area that was behind Mudd.

Alex

I'll try to post the pics mentioned.

This a Lancer post from Alex.

--Miles

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John B Beckham

February 06, 2009, 10:07:55 PM

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lol! thanks!

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Miles Scull

February 06, 2009, 10:19:41 PM

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Posts: 8748

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lol! thanks!

Look for Alex' post #14 pics here:

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