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 August 30, 2010, 02:04:45 PM
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Bill You said you might be interested in hearing more about Mr Byrd As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or LoginI am also trying to find a report from a man who worked at the TSBD long before the assasination ,He was reporting to a Govt.dept involved in arms trading .He had a publishing company there ,there was a comment from his son regarding the rubbish dumpsters on all the floors were actually old rifle boxes left over from his fathers time .Not that this brings us any closer to an answer but sometimes the background of a place or person can help fill in the foreground when we have to decide on the involved or lead to facts in this case . Let me just emphasise the fact I am not trying to incriminate Mr Byrd but spending all this time arguing the toss about who was where when this happened produces very little movement on either side. As I have always said the bigger picture away from the magic show will produce the answers we all require.I might add that a business link to somebody does not indicate their guilt or innocence but could influence a 50/50 decision when it came to a supposedly innocent decision. Ian
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Some things we know we know,the rest we have to find out for ourselves
One of the first things we found out was that the Warren Commission never pursued a conspiracy investigation.
Louis Stokes
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room
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September 09, 2010, 05:27:15 PM
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I'll let Rob's last 2 posts on this thread speak for me.  The guy is a paranoid lunatic who has continually been asked to show a post of mine where I lied. Instead of doing so, he simply keeps accusing me of lying. My name really is Bill brown. I've never posted at ACJ. Not everyone is out to get Rob Caprio. But, when you tell lies about someone, then yes, you just might be called a  . Just move on, is my recommendation. Anyway, I didn't see any mention of Lee Bower's testimony here, I think it was in another thread though. But it bears mentioning that he was quite aware of the echo effect in DP. And that effect cast doubts on any witness testimony as to the direction of the shots based on what they heard. Wow, this sounds like LNer speak to me! Did you get off that fence yet Rob? Do you have reason to doubt Bower's testimony or would you much rather talk about the posters here rather than the topics? Because if it's the latter you can wave bye to me too. I was referring to the part you said this... Quote on But it bears mentioning that he was quite aware of the echo effect in DP. And that effect cast doubts on any witness testimony as to the direction of the shots based on what they heard. Quote off Bowers did NOT just rely on what he HEARD and to say he did is not accurate. Furthermore, the part about the echoing effecting the witnesses' beliefs is pure LNer! The BEST WITNESSES were cops and the majority of them did NOT believe the shots came from the TSBD! Why would you try and make it seem like the witnesses could not determine where the shots came from when this is not accurate? I don't understand what you mean by "Bowers did NOT just rely on what he HEARD". Could you elaborate? Why do I think the witnesses could not accurately tell the direction of the shots? Because of Bower's testimony about the echo effect, and others. If you believe otherwise, again... could you elaborate? IF you read his testimony you would realize he SAW a good bit too! As I said the vast majority of cops, the best EARWITNESSES going, said the shots came from the GK area! 16 of the 20 cops standing on HOUSTON (meaning the TSBD was closer to them) said the shots came from the GK in their opinion. Two-thirds of those asked by the WC said the GK was the source of the shots (some thought the TSBD as well). Many INSIDE THE TSBD said they thought the shots came from the GK! TO make it sound like many witnsses were unsure about where they thought the shots came from is very misleading. I'll chalk this up to you NOT knowing the evidence very well! My guess is ANYONE with leanings to LHO did it alone have to either NOT know the evidence or received compensation for it. You made it sound like you had reason to doubt the echo effect. But you have not presented anything to back that up. I did not mean to make it sound like the witnesses were unsure. I was saying that their testimony was unreliable. Before you start up with claims of me not knowing the evidence well or being a paid disinfo agent (are you kidding me!) you might read my posts a little more carefully. I have not taken a position on whether Oswald fired and it is immaterial to this discussion. Focus, my man! You wrote "Why would you try and make it seem like the witnesses could not determine where the shots came from when this is not accurate?" Because it is accurate, in that their testimony was unreliable due to the echo effect. Okay, let's stay on track now. 'I'm trying to work with ya here.' YOU have to first show there was an echo effect! The vast majority of those asked seem to have NO problem determining where the shots came from! ONLY WC apologists have made this an issue to hide the truth. Now you are claiming their testimony is unreliable! Can you back that up with evidence? Where did I say you were a disinfo agent? YOU sound a might touchy to me. YOU have to show there was an echo effect! Why can't you understand this? YOU have now said the witnesses gave UNRELIABLE testimony and you of course won't support this in the least. YOUR behavior is very much like a WC apologists as you seem to always SAY what they say! You seem to have jumped off of that fence.
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A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
"Benavides- Saw Oswald kill Tippit, picked him out of a lineup." - Brian "Doesn't Know His Rear From His Back" Walker
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September 09, 2010, 05:43:22 PM
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Full Member
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I'll let Rob's last 2 posts on this thread speak for me. The guy is a paranoid lunatic who has continually been asked to show a post of mine where I lied. Instead of doing so, he simply keeps accusing me of lying. My name really is Bill brown. I've never posted at ACJ. Not everyone is out to get Rob Caprio. But, when you tell lies about someone, then yes, you just might be called a . Just move on, is my recommendation. Anyway, I didn't see any mention of Lee Bower's testimony here, I think it was in another thread though. But it bears mentioning that he was quite aware of the echo effect in DP. And that effect cast doubts on any witness testimony as to the direction of the shots based on what they heard. Wow, this sounds like LNer speak to me! Did you get off that fence yet Rob? Do you have reason to doubt Bower's testimony or would you much rather talk about the posters here rather than the topics? Because if it's the latter you can wave bye to me too. I was referring to the part you said this... Quote on But it bears mentioning that he was quite aware of the echo effect in DP. And that effect cast doubts on any witness testimony as to the direction of the shots based on what they heard. Quote off Bowers did NOT just rely on what he HEARD and to say he did is not accurate. Furthermore, the part about the echoing effecting the witnesses' beliefs is pure LNer! The BEST WITNESSES were cops and the majority of them did NOT believe the shots came from the TSBD! Why would you try and make it seem like the witnesses could not determine where the shots came from when this is not accurate? I don't understand what you mean by "Bowers did NOT just rely on what he HEARD". Could you elaborate? Why do I think the witnesses could not accurately tell the direction of the shots? Because of Bower's testimony about the echo effect, and others. If you believe otherwise, again... could you elaborate? IF you read his testimony you would realize he SAW a good bit too! As I said the vast majority of cops, the best EARWITNESSES going, said the shots came from the GK area! 16 of the 20 cops standing on HOUSTON (meaning the TSBD was closer to them) said the shots came from the GK in their opinion. Two-thirds of those asked by the WC said the GK was the source of the shots (some thought the TSBD as well). Many INSIDE THE TSBD said they thought the shots came from the GK! TO make it sound like many witnsses were unsure about where they thought the shots came from is very misleading. I'll chalk this up to you NOT knowing the evidence very well! My guess is ANYONE with leanings to LHO did it alone have to either NOT know the evidence or received compensation for it. You made it sound like you had reason to doubt the echo effect. But you have not presented anything to back that up. I did not mean to make it sound like the witnesses were unsure. I was saying that their testimony was unreliable. Before you start up with claims of me not knowing the evidence well or being a paid disinfo agent (are you kidding me!) you might read my posts a little more carefully. I have not taken a position on whether Oswald fired and it is immaterial to this discussion. Focus, my man! You wrote "Why would you try and make it seem like the witnesses could not determine where the shots came from when this is not accurate?" Because it is accurate, in that their testimony was unreliable due to the echo effect. Okay, let's stay on track now. 'I'm trying to work with ya here.' YOU have to first show there was an echo effect! Lee Bower's testimony.The vast majority of those asked seem to have NO problem determining where the shots came from! ONLY WC apologists have made this an issue to hide the truth. They know which direction they sounded like they were coming from. That doesn't disallow the possibility they heard echoes. See how that works yet?Now you are claiming their testimony is unreliable! Can you back that up with evidence? Yes, the echo effect. Bower's testimony. Catching on at all here yet? Are you with me?Where did I say you were a disinfo agent? YOU sound a might touchy to me. Touchy, huh? Like a disinfo agent would be?Here's where you implied it: "ANYONE with leanings to LHO did it alone have to either NOT know the evidence or received compensation for it"YOU have to show there was an echo effect! Why can't you understand this? YOU have now said the witnesses gave UNRELIABLE testimony and you of course won't support this in the least. The echo effect supports it. Bower's testimony supports the existence of the echo effect. This ain't rocket science my man!YOUR behavior is very much like a WC apologists as you seem to always SAY what they say! You seem to have jumped off of that fence. You've jumped off the fence of reading comprehension, normal communication, and logic. Not to mention staying on topic. Note that we have not moved forward one inch since this alleged discussion started. Would you like to try again?
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September 09, 2010, 06:17:48 PM
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YOU have to first show there was an echo effect!
“Lee Bower's testimony.”
YOU have to do better than this as one person’s claim does not make it so. Funny how so many WC apologists don’t believe the rest of his story but this they hold onto.
The vast majority of those asked seem to have NO problem determining where the shots came from! ONLY WC apologists have made this an issue to hide the truth.
“They know which direction they sounded like they were coming from. That doesn't disallow the possibility they heard echoes. See how that works yet?”
Quite a few inside the TSBD said the shots came from below – meaning street level! Can you show us LHO was standing on the steps with a rifle in his hands?
Now you are claiming their testimony is unreliable! Can you back that up with evidence?
“Yes, the echo effect. Bower's testimony. Catching on at all here yet? Are you with me?”
What echo effect? You gave one person’s testimony and I’m sure you don’t believe other parts of it either.
Where did I say you were a disinfo agent? YOU sound a might touchy to me.
“Touchy, huh? Like a disinfo agent would be?”
YOU are convincing folks you are one – good job.
“Here's where you implied it: "ANYONE with leanings to LHO did it alone have to either NOT know the evidence or received compensation for it"”
Absolutely true, for if you did know the evidence you would know LHO did NOT do it (the shootings), let alone all by himself.
YOU have to show there was an echo effect! Why can't you understand this? YOU have now said the witnesses gave UNRELIABLE testimony and you of course won't support this in the least.
“The echo effect supports it. Bower's testimony supports the existence of the echo effect. This ain't rocket science my man!”
So know you rely on ONE man yet so many other witnesses you won’t acknowledge? How does this make any sense UNLESS you have an agenda!
YOUR behavior is very much like a WC apologists as you seem to always SAY what they say! You seem to have jumped off of that fence.
“You've jumped off the fence of reading comprehension, normal communication, and logic. Not to mention staying on topic. Note that we have not moved forward one inch since this alleged discussion started. Would you like to try again?”
More words used commonly by the WC apologists! The topic is THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF FOLKS, INCLUDING THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE POLICE, SAID THE SHOTS CAME FROM THE GRASSY KNOLL AREA!
You are the one spinning things to distract from the truth, NOT me.
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September 09, 2010, 06:35:53 PM
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You're really lost. Here, I'll lay it out for you. I mentioned how the echo effect makes witness identification of the location of shots unreliable. The existence of the echo effect is supported by Bower's testimony. This does not imply that LHO did it, or that there wasn't a conspiracy, or that Bowers is a 'LN witness', or anything else! It is what it is. Please let that sink in for a moment. You are arguing with yourself on everything else. 
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September 09, 2010, 07:12:35 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 8302
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You're really lost. Here, I'll lay it out for you. I mentioned how the echo effect makes witness identification of the location of shots unreliable. The existence of the echo effect is supported by Bower's testimony. This does not imply that LHO did it, or that there wasn't a conspiracy, or that Bowers is a 'LN witness', or anything else! It is what it is. Please let that sink in for a moment. You are arguing with yourself on everything else. YOU are the one lost as the VAST MAJORITY of the people said it was the GK. NOW, let's flip it, since you claim there was a such an "echo effect" how can anyone say the shots came from the TSBD since those witnesses have to be discounted too? I am aware of Bower's testimony, you obviously aren't, so again, what does he have to do with wiping the vast majority of the witnesses statements about the GK being the source of the shots they heard? YOU need to show us an echo effect bothered a man high up in a tower too! YOU are out to discredit the witnesses who said it was the Gk (they were the majority too) and we all see that. It isn't working though.
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September 09, 2010, 07:50:52 PM
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Full Member
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You're really lost. Here, I'll lay it out for you. I mentioned how the echo effect makes witness identification of the location of shots unreliable. The existence of the echo effect is supported by Bower's testimony. This does not imply that LHO did it, or that there wasn't a conspiracy, or that Bowers is a 'LN witness', or anything else! It is what it is. Please let that sink in for a moment. You are arguing with yourself on everything else. YOU are the one lost as the VAST MAJORITY of the people said it was the GK. NOW, let's flip it, since you claim there was a such an "echo effect" how can anyone say the shots came from the TSBD since those witnesses have to be discounted too? I am aware of Bower's testimony, you obviously aren't, so again, what does he have to do with wiping the vast majority of the witnesses statements about the GK being the source of the shots they heard? YOU need to show us an echo effect bothered a man high up in a tower too! YOU are out to discredit the witnesses who said it was the Gk (they were the majority too) and we all see that. It isn't working though. I'm not saying the shots came from the TSBD. Those earwitnesses can be discounted too.  Maybe you'll catch on now. I don't have an agenda you see. The echo effect makes ALL identification of the location of the shots by earwitnesses unreliable. I suppose we don't have anything to talk about now since you just seem to want to attack the LN position.
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September 13, 2010, 04:06:34 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 8302
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You're really lost. Here, I'll lay it out for you. I mentioned how the echo effect makes witness identification of the location of shots unreliable. The existence of the echo effect is supported by Bower's testimony. This does not imply that LHO did it, or that there wasn't a conspiracy, or that Bowers is a 'LN witness', or anything else! It is what it is. Please let that sink in for a moment. You are arguing with yourself on everything else. YOU are the one lost as the VAST MAJORITY of the people said it was the GK. NOW, let's flip it, since you claim there was a such an "echo effect" how can anyone say the shots came from the TSBD since those witnesses have to be discounted too? I am aware of Bower's testimony, you obviously aren't, so again, what does he have to do with wiping the vast majority of the witnesses statements about the GK being the source of the shots they heard? YOU need to show us an echo effect bothered a man high up in a tower too! YOU are out to discredit the witnesses who said it was the Gk (they were the majority too) and we all see that. It isn't working though. I'm not saying the shots came from the TSBD. Those earwitnesses can be discounted too. Maybe you'll catch on now. I don't have an agenda you see. The echo effect makes ALL identification of the location of the shots by earwitnesses unreliable. I suppose we don't have anything to talk about now since you just seem to want to attack the LN position. So you are saying POLICE OFFICERS can't tell where the shots came from either? YOU will need to pony up some evidence or cites for this claim.
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September 13, 2010, 08:08:51 PM
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Posts: 3606
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You're really lost. Here, I'll lay it out for you. I mentioned how the echo effect makes witness identification of the location of shots unreliable. The existence of the echo effect is supported by Bower's testimony. This does not imply that LHO did it, or that there wasn't a conspiracy, or that Bowers is a 'LN witness', or anything else! It is what it is. Please let that sink in for a moment. You are arguing with yourself on everything else. YOU are the one lost as the VAST MAJORITY of the people said it was the GK. NOW, let's flip it, since you claim there was a such an "echo effect" how can anyone say the shots came from the TSBD since those witnesses have to be discounted too? I am aware of Bower's testimony, you obviously aren't, so again, what does he have to do with wiping the vast majority of the witnesses statements about the GK being the source of the shots they heard? YOU need to show us an echo effect bothered a man high up in a tower too! YOU are out to discredit the witnesses who said it was the Gk (they were the majority too) and we all see that. It isn't working though. I'm not saying the shots came from the TSBD. Those earwitnesses can be discounted too. Maybe you'll catch on now. I don't have an agenda you see. The echo effect makes ALL identification of the location of the shots by earwitnesses unreliable. I suppose we don't have anything to talk about now since you just seem to want to attack the LN position. So you are saying POLICE OFFICERS can't tell where the shots came from either? YOU will need to pony up some evidence or cites for this claim. No obviously police officers have special ears Robbie. Its a known fact. Did all the police agree on where the shots came from Robbie?. I do know nobody saw anyone shoot from anywhere but the 6th floor, and all evidence points to a shot from the 6th floor.
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What is silly is thinking that two turns that reduced the speed of the car to 8-11 m.p.h. is no big deal when motorcades are suppose to keep a 44 m.p.h. speed..R Caprio
LHO had poor hand-eye coordination and proof of this is seen in the fact he couldn't drive an automobile-- R Caprio
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September 15, 2010, 07:23:43 PM
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You're really lost. Here, I'll lay it out for you. I mentioned how the echo effect makes witness identification of the location of shots unreliable. The existence of the echo effect is supported by Bower's testimony. This does not imply that LHO did it, or that there wasn't a conspiracy, or that Bowers is a 'LN witness', or anything else! It is what it is. Please let that sink in for a moment. You are arguing with yourself on everything else. YOU are the one lost as the VAST MAJORITY of the people said it was the GK. NOW, let's flip it, since you claim there was a such an "echo effect" how can anyone say the shots came from the TSBD since those witnesses have to be discounted too? I am aware of Bower's testimony, you obviously aren't, so again, what does he have to do with wiping the vast majority of the witnesses statements about the GK being the source of the shots they heard? YOU need to show us an echo effect bothered a man high up in a tower too! YOU are out to discredit the witnesses who said it was the Gk (they were the majority too) and we all see that. It isn't working though. I'm not saying the shots came from the TSBD. Those earwitnesses can be discounted too. Maybe you'll catch on now. I don't have an agenda you see. The echo effect makes ALL identification of the location of the shots by earwitnesses unreliable. I suppose we don't have anything to talk about now since you just seem to want to attack the LN position. So you are saying POLICE OFFICERS can't tell where the shots came from either? YOU will need to pony up some evidence or cites for this claim. No obviously police officers have special ears Robbie. Its a known fact. Did all the police agree on where the shots came from Robbie?. I do know nobody saw anyone shoot from anywhere but the 6th floor, and all evidence points to a shot from the 6th floor. Police officers are taught to listen and tell where shots come from Brianie (or is is Brianna?) so they are the best ear witnesses for this event! The vast majority of them believed they came from the GK and that INCLUDED 16 OF 20 THAT WERE STANDING ON HOUSTON ST! Look at the photos and films too and you will see the vast majority of cops and people running up the GRASSY KNOLL NOT into the TSBD! In fact, it was pointed out many years ago that you can't find one person in the photos or films of the assassination who are standing in front of the TSBD and actually LOOKING UP! Why is this if the shots ONLY came from behind them as the WC claimed?
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September 15, 2010, 07:28:44 PM
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Super Member
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You're really lost. Here, I'll lay it out for you. I mentioned how the echo effect makes witness identification of the location of shots unreliable. The existence of the echo effect is supported by Bower's testimony. This does not imply that LHO did it, or that there wasn't a conspiracy, or that Bowers is a 'LN witness', or anything else! It is what it is. Please let that sink in for a moment. You are arguing with yourself on everything else. YOU are the one lost as the VAST MAJORITY of the people said it was the GK. NOW, let's flip it, since you claim there was a such an "echo effect" how can anyone say the shots came from the TSBD since those witnesses have to be discounted too? I am aware of Bower's testimony, you obviously aren't, so again, what does he have to do with wiping the vast majority of the witnesses statements about the GK being the source of the shots they heard? YOU need to show us an echo effect bothered a man high up in a tower too! YOU are out to discredit the witnesses who said it was the Gk (they were the majority too) and we all see that. It isn't working though. I'm not saying the shots came from the TSBD. Those earwitnesses can be discounted too. Maybe you'll catch on now. I don't have an agenda you see. The echo effect makes ALL identification of the location of the shots by earwitnesses unreliable. I suppose we don't have anything to talk about now since you just seem to want to attack the LN position. So you are saying POLICE OFFICERS can't tell where the shots came from either? YOU will need to pony up some evidence or cites for this claim. No obviously police officers have special ears Robbie. Its a known fact. Did all the police agree on where the shots came from Robbie?. I do know nobody saw anyone shoot from anywhere but the 6th floor, and all evidence points to a shot from the 6th floor. Police officers are taught to listen and tell where shots come from Brianie (or is is Brianna?) so they are the best ear witnesses for this event! The vast majority of them believed they came from the GK and that INCLUDED 16 OF 20 THAT WERE STANDING ON HOUSTON ST! Look at the photos and films too and you will see the vast majority of cops and people running up the GRASSY KNOLL NOT into the TSBD! In fact, it was pointed out many years ago that you can't find one person in the photos or films of the assassination who are standing in front of the TSBD and actually LOOKING UP! Why is this if the shots ONLY came from behind them as the WC claimed? Police officers in 1963 are trained to tell where shots came from. If I am wrong I will admit it, but Name the 16 officers please. Anything to try and take away from the fact that most people thought the shots came from the GK. So this is how you try to get around that.. Yeah becase people were running up the Grass knowll to try and catch a killer with a rifle.
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