This is from December 2009 – it was titled “Lee Harvey Oswald, His Rifle and the Paper Bag” by DVP. I responded to his points. His comments will be in the “_” quotation marks.
Be forewarned again – Dave is very long-winded! I would imagine he would be great at CPR! Of course NONE of my requests for cites were ever provided, but we have to keep asking, right?
"You have no evidence to show that the rifle was in that bag[,] yet you want to believe it so desperately." (DVP quoting me)
“It looks as though it's time for another quick lesson in "Common Sense 101" (as well as "Basic JFK Evidence 102"):
1.) LEE HARVEY OSWALD'S RIFLE was found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building on 11/22/63.”
Prove it. Show us the evidence that links the rifle found with LHO!
“2.) An EMPTY 38-INCH-LONG PAPER BAG with two of Oswald's prints on it was found under the same window from where OSWALD'S RIFLE positively fired three bullets at President Kennedy.”
It was? Where is it located in the crime scene photos? I believe your TWO witnesses testified to it NOT being 38 inches long either!
“3.) The lengthiest part of OSWALD'S RIFLE, when broken down, was 34.8 inches. So it could definitely fit inside the 38-inch PAPER BAG found near the sniper's window.”
Yes, IF the bag was really 38 inches long, but YOUR OWN TWO WITNESSES SAID IT WAS NOT! Where is your evidence showing to us that LHO made this bag, that it had oil on it and that the bag had marks matching the rifle again?
“4.) Oswald carried a long-ish and bulky PAPER BAG into the TSBD on 11/22/63.”
He did?? Who saw this? I ask because the ONLY witness you have described him carrying it in a way that was PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for him to do IF the bag was 38 inches as you claim! Cite the witness that saw him carry it into the TSBD.
“5.) Oswald lied about the contents of that PAPER BAG to fellow worker Buell Wesley Frazier.”
He did? Where is your proof for this claim of yours? If you provide none we will know YOU are the one making things up.
“6.) Oswald also lied when he told the police he did not carry any kind of a large PAPER BAG into the Depository Building on November 22nd.”
Ditto. Prove he did or we will know you are the one telling falsehoods. Start with citing anyone who saw him carrying a package into the TSBD.
“7.) Oswald also lied when he told the police that he had not recently said anything at all to fellow worker Buell Wesley Frazier about "curtain rods".
Ditto. How can you possibly claim someone lied when you have NO evidence to show they did? You are going on hearsay and second-hand information.
“8.) Following the President's assassination, no curtain rods were discovered in the Book Depository [CE2640]: As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
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Neither was ANY rifle that belonged to LHO, but that doesn't stop you from claiming one was!
“9.) OSWALD'S RIFLE was not found in its known storage location (Ruth Paine's garage in Irving, Texas) on the afternoon of November 22nd. “
Can you show us that if it had been searched on 11/21/63 it would have been there? IF not, this is meaningless. (This is even not mentioning the issue of whether there was really EVER a gun there in the first place.)
“Lee Oswald, of course, spent the previous night (Nov. 21) at the Paine house, and had easy access to the garage where he knew his rifle was being stored.”
So did other people, prove LHO took the rifle with him to work. SO far you have listed NO evidence or proof for this contention of yours.
“10.) Ruth Paine discovered that someone had left the light on in the garage at some point prior to approximately 9:00 PM CST on Thursday, November 21st. Ruth was certain that she, herself, had not left the light on, and Ruth was also fairly certain that Marina Oswald had not left the light on either.”
What made her so "certain" of all of this? Who else had access to the garage besides LHO? Did anyone see LHO?
By the way they "CHANGED" the light story to him leaving it on in the morning AFTER the police advised her. I guess the next question would have been where did he keep it ALL night if he had taken it earlier. This change in time shows us this story is bogus.
“It was Ruth's belief that the person who had been in her garage prior to 9:00 PM on Nov. 21 and had not turned out
the light upon exiting the garage was Lee Harvey Oswald.”
Beliefs prove nothing.
“When a reasonable and sensible person adds up #1 through #10 above, the answer becomes quite obvious.”
It does -- LHO was framed.
“In fact, the answer couldn't be more obvious -- Lee Oswald wrapped his own rifle in a handmade 38-inch brown paper bag and carried that paper package containing his rifle out of the Paine residence on the morning of November 22, 1963.”
NOW all you have to do is provide some evidence that supports all of these claims of yours!
“Lee H. Oswald then took that rifle package into his workplace at the TSBD, unwrapped the rifle in private at some point prior to 12:30 PM, assembled his rifle (which is reasonable to assume he knew how to do without much difficulty or painstaking effort), secreted himself as best he could in the southeast corner of the sixth floor (aided by the shield of book cartons that Oswald himself had fashioned that same morning), and shot and killed JFK when he drove down Elm Street at 12:30 PM.”
Show us the evidence that supports these claims of yours.
“For goodness sake, this is second-grade math we're dealing with here concerning the rifle and the bag. ANY other explanation regarding those two objects is laughable when compared to the scenario I just laid out above.”
When someone is willing to be dishonest about everything like you -- of course things become "simple." IF you could only actually cite the evidence that shows these things are correct, then you would have something.
“Any alternate scenario must explain away many different things (things that all FIT TOGETHER like a well-fitting glove via the 10-point scenario I talked about above), such as:”
Hardly difficult to do.
“1.) The need to explain away the FACT that Oswald's rifle…”
When was it proven a rifle was in the Paine's garage in the first place? When was it proven LHO owned a 40" Carcano similar to the one found in the TSBD?
“…was missing from its known storage location…”
How do we know there was a "known storage location" in the first place?
“…on the same day the President was killed via rifle fire that came from the same building where Lee
> Oswald worked and from where three bullets from OSWALD'S RIFLE were fired (via the three spent shells from OSWALD'S RIFLE found under the sniper's window).”
Too bad you have NO evidence showing LHO fired a rifle and that any of the ballistic evidence can be TIED to the victims, huh?
“2.) If Lee Harvey Oswald didn't take his rifle to work in that large-ish paper bag on 11/22/63, then when did he (or somebody else) take Mannlicher-Carcano rifle #C2766 into the Book Depository?”
Too bad you can't prove or show evidence that supports your claim that he took the rifle to work on 11/22/63, huh?
“Prior to November 21, the last time Oswald was at Ruth Paine's house was the weekend of November 8-11, 1963, which was more than one full week before the President's motorcade route through Dallas was even finalized or announced in the Dallas papers.”
Boy, when you have to RELY on stuff like this you know you are in trouble, huh?
“The earliest that Oswald could have known for sure that his workplace would be a good and viable location for attempting to assassinate President Kennedy was Tuesday morning, November 19th, when the details
> of the motorcade route (including the Houston-to-Elm turn that would take JFK's limousine directly in front of the TSBD) were printed in the Dallas Morning News [CE1363]:”
So you think he could plan everything in 3 days, huh? How would he know the motorcade would be 5 minutes late?
As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
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Login “It stands to reason, therefore, that Oswald probably did not remove his rifle from Ruth Paine's garage prior to 11/19/63. And the only possible dates after November 19th that he could have conceivably retrieved his rifle from that location in Irving, Texas, were November 21-22.”
When did you prove LHO had a rifle and he kept it in the Paine's garage again? Without proving this it is silly to move on and claim the stuff you are claiming.
“3.) Conspiracy theorists also need to somehow explain away the devastatingly-incriminating evidence against Lee Oswald known as CE142 (the EMPTY paper bag that was found in the Sniper's Nest with two of Oswald's prints on it).”
We do? When did you prove or show supporting evidence for the WC's claim that he made the bag, that it was 38 inches long and that LHO did OWN a 40" Carcano rifle and he brought it to work in that bag again?
“Most conspiracists like to cry foul when discussing that brown paper sack, claiming that the police were up to no good and created a fake bag in order to frame Oswald with it. But such arguments fall short in the "proof it happened" department. Way short.”
The did create a "fake" bag and the FBI admitted it as they said they destroyed the original one during "chemical tests!"
“But it's obvious why CTers feel the need to distance themselves from the reality of that paper bag.”
What reality is this? YOU have NOT shown one piece of supporting evidence for the claim of the bag. You can’t even show us a picture of it in situ!
“Because if those conspiracy believers were to actually face the stubborn reality concerning the bag (with that reality being: It was Oswald's homemade bag and Oswald took his rifle to work in that bag),…”
That is funny! THE WC said he made it at the TSBD, but DVP says it was "homemade!"
“…then those CTers would be forced to admit that their precious "patsy" had probably taken that gun to work in order to shoot somebody with it on the day when JFK came to town.”
Why "probably" Dave? I thought if a "reasonable person" (and you always claim to be one) added up 1 to 10 they would KNOW he did it?
“What other reasonable and logical conclusion could anyone (CTer or otherwise) come to after they've admitted to themselves the obvious truth: That Lee Oswald did, in fact, walk into the Book Depository on November 22, 1963, with a rifle wrapped in brown paper?”
NOW all you have to do is prove it or show supporting evidence for this conclusion. When will we get that from you?
“4.) Another pesky item that conspiracists need to "explain away" is the "curtain rod" lie that was told by Lee Harvey Oswald.”
Why do we need to "explain away" a claim that was NEVER shown to be true in the first place?
“And it couldn't be more obvious (to a reasonable and rational person, that is) that Oswald DID, indeed, lie to Wesley Frazier (and later to the police after he was arrested) concerning the curtain rods. Oswald never had any curtain rods, of course.”
How does one prove this claim? YOU can't as all you have is Frazier's word, and that is it. NO one else could be found to say they saw LHO enter the TSBD on the morning of 11/22/63 with a bag like you describe.
“And why on Earth would Oswald want to lie about the contents of that brown paper package?”
Exactly! So why are you so ready to believe he did?
“Again, the answer couldn't be more obvious: He wanted to DISTANCE HIMSELF FROM THE MURDER WEAPON.”
LOL!! Too bad you have NO supporting evidence for this claim, huh? What is it like to make claims you CAN NEVER SUPPORT?
“5.) And two other pieces of evidence that conspiracy advocates must avoid or twist or mangle are the fingerprint and the palmprint of Oswald's that were found on the paper bag.”
Isn't it funny how his "palmprint" kept showing up everywhere? How could he handle the bag as much as your side claims and only leave these two types of prints? How could he carry a 38 inch package in the way Frazier said?
“How did Oswald's prints get on that paper bag IF OSWALD HIMSELF WAS NEVER IN POSSESSION OF THAT BAG ON THE DAY OF THE ASSASSINATION?”
What paper bag? That is the whole point!
“That's a question that no conspiracy theorist has ever been able to reconcile with anything close to a believable or satisfactory answer since 1963. And yet we've got certain conspiracists like James DiEugenio who now want to say that Oswald didn't carry ANY large bag into the TSBD on November 22. None at all!”
He didn't and we can say this BASED ON THE AVAILABLE EVIDENCE unlike what you do!
“Well, Jim, I've got a really good one-word response to such lunacy -- Hogwash!!”
Prove it!
“In summary---All conspiracy theorists who love to argue about whether Lee Harvey Oswald took his rifle into the TSBD on the morning of the assassination certainly have to realize (deep down) that the above 10-item scenario is 100% accurate and based on the actual evidence in the JFK case (not to mention being based on a whole lot of ordinary common sense as well).”
There is NO argument as you can't show any supporting evidence for your claims.
“But, it seems that conspiracy promoters just love to argue....even when they must certainly know in their own guts that their arguments are filled with mush when compared with the actual truth.”
Spreading more falsehoods, aren't you?
“Vincent Bugliosi said it quite well (as usual) when he said this to the jury in London, England, in 1986 during the televised docu-trial, "ON TRIAL: LEE HARVEY OSWALD":”
Oh goodie, we get to hear from a PAID PROPAGANDIST again!
"We...know from the firearms people that the three expended cartridge casings found on the floor, right beneath that sixth-floor window--undoubtedly the same casings that Mr. [Harold] Norman heard fall from above--were fired in, and ejected from, Oswald's rifle to the exclusion of all other weapons.”
Where is his supporting evidence for this claim?
"So we KNOW, not just beyond a reasonable doubt, we know beyond ALL doubt that OSWALD'S RIFLE WAS THE MURDER WEAPON....that caused that terrible, terrible spray of brain matter to the front! The worst sight that I have ever seen in my entire life!”
Where is his supporting evidence for this claim?
"And it's obvious that Oswald carried that rifle into the building that day in that large brown paper bag. It couldn't be more obvious. As far as Mr. [Wesley] Frazier's testimony about Oswald carrying the bag under his armpit, he conceded he never paid close attention to just how Oswald was carrying that bag. He didn't have any reason to.”
Where is his supporting evidence for this claim?
"At this point if we had nothing else....nothing else!....how much do you need?!....if we had NOTHING else!....this would be enough to prove Oswald's guilt beyond all REASONABLE doubt. But there's so
> much more." -- Vincent Bugliosi; July 1986”
Where is his supporting evidence for this claim? So I see where Dave gets his habit of making claims while providing no cites from!
A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
"Benavides- Saw Oswald kill Tippit, picked him out of a lineup." - Brian "Doesn't Know His Rear From His Back" Walker
