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 June 27, 2010, 12:41:02 PM
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David Von Pein has not read JFK. Analysis of a Shooting: The Ultimate Ballistics Truth Exposed by Orlando Martin.
Yet, on the basis of a Black Op interview with Martin, David Von Pein presumes to suggest that this book is worthless.
I have read 1/2 of this book & have scanned all of it.
While it has errors of fact & interpretation, I have, ALSO, found a wealth of data in this book as well as accurate, close reasoning in it, some of which is very interesting.
IMO, to imply that this book is worthless is distortion equivalent to prevarication, or, actually, outright lying.
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« Last Edit: June 27, 2010, 05:41:50 PM by Duncan MacRae »
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June 28, 2010, 12:07:49 AM
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The best thing the owners of this site could do is give us [an] ignore button so we would not even know when he posts his trash. Good idea, Bill. It's always better if CTers totally ignore and/or distort the best evidence in the case. After all, it's what conspiracy theorists have been doing for 40+ years. So why mess with a perfect record? David, I have to agree with your assessment. How can someone write a book that alleges to discuss all the weapons involved etc etc, when there is absolutely nothing in the evidence to support it? This makes no sense to me. True to CT form, he operates off the basic delusion that something was altered or destroyed, and then goes on to spew what he thinks it would have shown, its crap. Private? Have you read the book? No?   It does not take much ti figure out that the guy is offering nothing more than a massive speculation. I prefer to stick to the evidence.
 Private? Are you hiding? You are not a craven coward, I know. Nor are you a chicken-sh*t. Right? What is your answer? How many witnesses reported seeing Lee with a bag (package) which Lee said to Frazier & Yates contained curtain rods?
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June 28, 2010, 01:10:30 AM
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One of my favorite fellow "LNers" is a man named "Bud", who regularly posts at the "alt" newsgroups. Almost all of Bud's posts make me smile, and he has a unique way of stating the facts (with a lot of common sense attached): "It's the [conspiracy] kooks who chase their tails, we've been staying pat with the winning hand for decades. .... How would the world be any different if they [Lane-Garrison-Weisberg-Salandria-Lifton-Wecht-Thompson] never took up this snipe hunt? Did they accomplish anything, expose any conspiring? Soon this whole generation of conspiracy will be gone, and the WCR will still be the only explanation for what occurred on the table. It will outlast all its critics, and history will laugh at the -offs who spent so much time, money and effort trying to deny the obvious." -- Bud; June 26, 2010 As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or LoginAs a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Loginyou've have shown total cowardice concerning Ben Holmes 45 questions, son. Till you grow nads and answer those questions completely your JFK assassination credibility is nil, Z-E-R-O. Same for the LN stooges whom provide you cover....
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June 28, 2010, 02:36:52 AM
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Sr. Member
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The best thing the owners of this site could do is give us [an] ignore button so we would not even know when he posts his trash. Good idea, Bill. It's always better if CTers totally ignore and/or distort the best evidence in the case. After all, it's what conspiracy theorists have been doing for 40+ years. So why mess with a perfect record? David, I have to agree with your assessment. How can someone write a book that alleges to discuss all the weapons involved etc etc, when there is absolutely nothing in the evidence to support it? This makes no sense to me. True to CT form, he operates off the basic delusion that something was altered or destroyed, and then goes on to spew what he thinks it would have shown, its crap. Private? Have you read the book? No? It does not take much ti figure out that the guy is offering nothing more than a massive speculation. I prefer to stick to the evidence.
Private? Are you hiding? You are not a craven coward, I know. Nor are you a chicken-sh*t. Right? What is your answer? How many witnesses reported seeing Lee with a bag (package) which Lee said to Frazier & Yates contained curtain rods?
I don't get this question. Are you saying there was a bag, or there wasn't a bag? The question seems two-sided. I know the answer is "zero" to how many witnesses, but in the second half you are acknowledging its existence by saying that "Lee" said they contained curtain rods. (Uh, "Lee"? Oh, you and "Lee" were good friends, were you? Went out for a couple a' brewskis after a long day at the Depository?) And if you are prepared to say there was a bag, then what happened to the curtain rods? I know insane wacky nutboy Groden claimed to have a picture of them, but he can be discounted. I want to know where they really are.
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« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 02:39:42 AM by Daniel Grillo »
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“the greatest enemy of the truth is very often not the lie-deliberate, contrived and dishonest-but the myth-persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.”-John F. Kennedy
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June 28, 2010, 03:36:17 AM
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Super Member
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quote:
"Not having read Martin's book, you cannot say that Martin is lying. You don't know what Martin has said in his book. Dr. Shaw's testimony is grossly insufficient to eliminate the issue of the possibility of missing pre-op chest X-rays, which might show fragments overlooked by Dr. Shaw. "
If the fragments were overlooked by Dr. Shaw, wouldn't they be in the post-op xrays too? It seems he would have left overlooked fragments in Connally's chest.
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"you're the cop, you figure it out"
-Lee H. Oswald to Dallas Police detectives, weekend
of 11-22-63.
"Part of the reason why we avoided talking about this thing, because every time you say something, somebody misinterprets what you say."
-James. J. Humes, excerpt of ARRB statement, 2-13-96
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June 28, 2010, 04:39:38 AM
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Super Member
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quote:
"Not having read Martin's book, you cannot say that Martin is lying. You don't know what Martin has said in his book. Dr. Shaw's testimony is grossly insufficient to eliminate the issue of the possibility of missing pre-op chest X-rays, which might show fragments overlooked by Dr. Shaw. "
If the fragments were overlooked by Dr. Shaw, wouldn't they be in the post-op xrays too? It seems he would have left overlooked fragments in Connally's chest.
The issue of how the X-rays were made is a legitimate issue & a reasonable one to be looked at by Martin in his book. The purpose of having timely pre-op AND post-op X-rays is to, among other things, create a record of what happened. For example, if a fragment was seen in pre-op, but not in post-op, then it should have been retained. Also, if a fragment was dialoged or displaced during the op, when the 22nd X-ray was taken, then no record of its existence was made because no pre-op X-ray was made. The post-op X-ray on the 29th provides data, but not within the framework of the same day. The pre & post op X-rays of the wrist & thigh were made on the same day, but not of the chest. Why? 
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June 28, 2010, 05:06:33 AM
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Super Member
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Dr. Shaw's testimony is grossly insufficient to eliminate the issue of the possibility of missing pre-op chest X-rays, which might show fragments overlooked by Dr. Shaw. Nonsense. Shaw's testimony is crystal clear: He took no bullet fragments out of Connally's chest. None. DR. ROBERT SHAW -- "We saw no evidence of any metallic material in the X-ray that we had of the chest, and we found none during the operation."So, regardless of exactly WHEN the 11/22/63 chest X-ray was taken (pre-op or not), that X-ray is still going to show any metal fragments inside JBC's chest, if any are there, since we know that Shaw removed NO metal at all from his chest. And the same goes for the chest X-ray that was taken a week later--on November 29th [CE682]. So there are two X-rays of the chest, each showing no metal fragments at all. CE681: As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or LoginCE682: As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or LoginWRONG. And stupid. See post above. If a fragment was overlooked or inadvertently removed by anyone before the 22nd X-ray was taken in the middle of the operation, then no record of it would exist because there was no pre-op X-ray taken. If a pre-op X-ray should have been taken, then why wasn't it? If it was taken, then where is it? There is also the important question of whether or not very small fragments were obscured by other formations in the first X-ray. These hidden fragments could have been eliminated during the drainage & irrigation during the 7 days interval between the two X-rays. The point is that: these are reasonable issues to look at. David Von Pein's smear tactics make him a poster-child for asinine LN kookism.
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« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 05:11:33 AM by Miles Scull »
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June 28, 2010, 07:40:50 AM
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Have you read the book ["JFK: Analysis Of A Shooting" by Orlando Martin]? No? I guess perhaps Miles believes that all of Orlando Martin's mistakes and outright lies are NOT GOING TO BE CONTAINED IN HIS BOOK (i.e., the very same book Martin was vigorously promoting on the Black Op Radio program of June 24th, 2010). Miles, as we all know, has the letters "CTer" stamped on his chest. He likes pretty much ANY conspiracy theorist...even a really silly one like Orlando Martin, who thinks that ALL of the pre-op X-rays of Governor Connally are "missing" and "were destroyed". ALL of them. Not just a chest X-ray or two. Prediction:When Orlando Martin finds out what a complete fool he made of himself on the As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login by insisting that ALL of Connally's pre-surgery X-rays had been "destroyed" and are "missing", he's going to move his CT goal posts and declare something like this (to save face): Oh, yes, I realize that there are several pre-surgery X-rays of Connally in WC Volume #17, as DVP has rightly pointed out, but all of those X-rays are phony. They are fakes. They were created to give the false impression that Governor Connally had very few bullet fragments in his body on November 22, 1963. The real pre-surgery X-rays of Connally are, indeed, missing and have been destroyed.(On second thought, maybe I shouldn't give Orlando any bright ideas on how he can save face, huh?)
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« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 09:48:46 AM by David Von Pein »
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June 28, 2010, 11:18:19 AM
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Super Member
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Have you read the book ["JFK: Analysis Of A Shooting" by Orlando Martin]? No? I guess perhaps Miles believes that all of Orlando Martin's mistakes and outright lies are NOT GOING TO BE CONTAINED IN HIS BOOK (i.e., the very same book Martin was vigorously promoting on the Black Op Radio program of June 24th, 2010). Miles, as we all know, has the letters "CTer" stamped on his chest. He likes pretty much ANY conspiracy theorist...even a really silly one like Orlando Martin, who thinks that ALL of the pre-op X-rays of Governor Connally are "missing" and "were destroyed". ALL of them. Not just a chest X-ray or two. Prediction:When Orlando Martin finds out what a complete fool he made of himself on the As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login by insisting that ALL of Connally's pre-surgery X-rays had been "destroyed" and are "missing", he's going to move his CT goal posts and declare something like this (to save face): Oh, yes, I realize that there are several pre-surgery X-rays of Connally in WC Volume #17, as DVP has rightly pointed out, but all of those X-rays are phony. They are fakes. They were created to give the false impression that Governor Connally had very few bullet fragments in his body on November 22, 1963. The real pre-surgery X-rays of Connally are, indeed, missing and have been destroyed.(On second thought, maybe I shouldn't give Orlando any bright ideas on how he can save face, huh?) No. That's pathetically ridiculous. You have not read the book, yet you think you know what's in the book. That's crazy, for starters. , WELCOME TO David Von Pein 's KOOKLAND ! Suppose, as I've already stipulated more than once on this thread, that the book contains errors. It does. But those errors do not constitute the totality of the book, far from it. Much in the book is interesting & accurate & informative. So, what you are doing is condemning the entire book based on what you heard in an interview with the author, WITHOUT READING THE BOOK. Have you considered getting professional help?
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June 28, 2010, 12:26:19 PM
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The huge lies and distortions uttered by Mr. Martin on the radio should be enough for any reasonable person to totally ignore everything in Martin's book. But not Miles Scull. To a kook like Miles, a few blatant lies about the X-rays and Connally's positioning in the limo and the Warren Commission's supposedly ignoring the Main St. curb damage in the WCR (which they didn't, of course), among multiple other distortions of the facts, are things that should be overlooked and forgiven. Right, Miles? Even conspiracist Pat Speer seems to agree with me about Mr. Martin (and I have a whole lot more respect for Patrick Speer than I have for Miles "Mr. ROFL Icon" Scull): "I suspect many CTs will agree with you on this one, David." -- Pat Speer; As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
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« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 12:33:22 PM by David Von Pein »
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June 28, 2010, 01:20:03 PM
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Super Member
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The huge lies and distortions uttered by Mr. Martin on the radio should be enough for any reasonable person to totally ignore everything in Martin's book. But not Miles Scull. To a kook like Miles, a few blatant lies about the X-rays and Connally's positioning in the limo and the Warren Commission's supposedly ignoring the Main St. curb damage in the WCR (which they didn't, of course), among multiple other distortions of the facts, are things that should be overlooked and forgiven. Right, Miles? Even conspiracist Pat Speer seems to agree with me about Mr. Martin (and I have a whole lot more respect for Patrick Speer than I have for Miles "Mr. ROFL Icon" Scull): "I suspect many CTs will agree with you on this one, David." -- Pat Speer; As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or LoginOh, boy, another ding-dong-dumb post from Mega Kook, David Von Pein. You don't comprehend the simplest matter: IF YOU HAVE NOT READ THE BOOK, THEN YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT IS IN THE BOOK. You may think you know about errors in the book & you may be right (or you may be wrong or you may be partially wrong). But you do NOT know what is in the book considered as a totality, unless you read the book. For example, Pat Speer, also, has not read the book, but is only guessing. Look at part of the book's content:  By attempting to destroy a book's reputation by resorting to trashing it, without reading it first bares resemblance to the tactics of a familiar propagandist:
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« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 01:25:17 PM by Miles Scull »
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June 28, 2010, 03:18:13 PM
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Over the last few months it has become clear what David Von Pein is. I will not read anything he posts or discuss anything with him. Anytime that I have I fell dirty afterward almost violated. Now I'm spending more time on the Ed Forum at least they had the good sense to ban this clown. The best thing the owners of this site could do is give us a ignore button so we would not even know when he posts his trash.
I have spent years with Dave on the alt.conspiracy.jfk site, and as much as I know he is full of crap, he is still entitled to make his points. I am NOT for censorship or any kind, if the truth is in a conspiracy, and I believe it is, then we can withstand the points of Dave Von Pein (I call him Dave Von Con for fun). For once we start to use censorship we are no better than those who have tried to use it on the CT researchers in this case over the years. One has to be diligent with a person like Dave as he is relentless and well organized with his falsehoods, but then again, no one should expect for everyone to agree with them on a board like this anyway. Ignore if you want, but censoring is not a good thing. I think the Ed Forum kicked him out because he would not put up his picture.
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A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people. -- John F. Kennedy
"Benavides- Saw Oswald kill Tippit, picked him out of a lineup." - Brian "Doesn't Know His Rear From His Back" Walker
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