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 November 09, 2009, 07:35:56 AM
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Super Member
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Robert,
Do you believe Oswald was guilty of anything on 11/22/63? In particular, do you believe Oswald killed Tippit?
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"The TRUTH doesn't require anyone's belief." - Dale Myers
"The human mind craves a mystery more than it loves the truth." - Dan Rather
"Reason does not always appeal to unreasonable men." - John F. Kennedy
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March 13, 2010, 04:50:09 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 7874
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One way to implement a coverup is simply to avoid looking for the truth, and the Commission did this expertly. Readers of the voluminous transcripts in the published Warren Commission volumes are repeatedly treated to examples of a Commissioner or staffer changing the subject, going off the record, or even ending an interview when certain topics were inadvertantly broached. Some witnesses, particularly medical ones, were furnished with torturously-worded leading questions designed to elicit the proper response. Despite all this, some truths kept breaking through. Witnesses described hearing four or more shots, in many cases from the "grassy knoll" area. Others saw or smelled smoke in this area, or hit the dirt because they felt that gunfire was whizzing over their head. Avoid looking for the truth? The Warren Commission reviewed and expanded upon CIA, Secret Service, and FBI investigations. The Commission interviewed and evaluated the testimony of 552 witnesses. The Commission visited Dealey Plaza and oversaw the writing of the final report (containing 888 pages), which was presented to LBJ in September of 1964. When I read witness testimony in the Warren Commission, I do not see examples of the Commission "not looking for the truth". But besides simple prejudice toward the desired finding, known coverup activities were sometimes more extreme. They included the destruction, manufacture, and alteration of some of the basic evidence in the case. Some of these acts have been admitted over the years, such as the FBI's hiding of Oswald's miniature Minox "spy" camera, and the destruction of a note he delivered to the FBI several days before the assassination. Much has never been admitted and remains disputed; some of the essays on this website will explore the scientific and circumstantial evidence that these acts did occur. "...destruction, manufacture, and alteration of some of the basic evidence in the case."?? I simply will need to see exact examples, if that quote is indeed referring to the Warren Commission. The note that Oswald delivered to the FBI was destroyed by the FBI, not by the Warren Commission. Anyone should know this. Gary, your quote above surely is not saying that the Warren Commission destroyed that note. Yet, that was your claim, that the WC destroyed evidence. You have yet to quote examples of the WC destroying evidence. Gary, I am simply asking you to give us an exact example of the Warren Commission altering or destroying evidence.
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« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 04:51:20 AM by Bill Brown »
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March 13, 2010, 05:05:01 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 7874
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One "problem" that presented itself was the stark contrast between the statements of physicians who treated Kennedy at Parkland Hospital in Dallas, who almost uniformly described a large rear head wound (which would tend to indicate a shot from the front), and the autopsy report, which asserted a right-side head wound which did not reach the back of the head. The HSCA met this problem head on, explaining why they sided with the autopsy doctors: "In disagreement with the observations of the Parkland doctors are the 26 people present at the autopsy. All of those interviewed who attended the autopsy corroborated the general location of the wounds as depicted in the photographs. None had differing accounts."
Drawing of back of JFK head, made by mortician Tom Robinson for the HSCA
MD 63, ARRB
This written statement, it turns out, is utterly false. With the release in the 1990s of the HSCA's files, which include transcripts of these unpublished interviews (complete with drawings made by the witnesses), we now know that several autopsy witnesses indeed corroborated the Dallas doctors' observations. See the Medical Coverup topic on this website for the transcripts and audiotapes of the interviews. More recent medical interviews, conducted in 1996 and 1998 by the Assassination Records Review Board, contain even starker indications of a medical coverup to conceal evidence of a frontal shot, and therefore a second shooter.
This one is simple: In interviews with author Gerald Posner, the Parkland doctors were nearly unanimous in their agreement with the autopsy findings at Bethesda Naval Hospital. Dr. Carrico points out, "We did [originally] say there was a parietal-occipital wound . . . and I think we were mistaken. The reason I say that is that the President was lying on his back and shoulders, and you could see the hole, with scalp and brain tissue hanging back down his head, and it covered most of the occipital [rear] portion of his head. We saw a large hole on the right side of his head. I don't believe we saw any occipital bone. It was not there. It was parietal bone. And if we said otherwise, we were mistaken."
Dr. Adolph Giesecke agrees. "I guess I have to say I was wrong in my Warren Commission testimony on the wound and in some of my pronouncements since then. I just never got that good of a look at it. . . . The truth is there was a massive head wound, with brain tissue and blood around it. And with that type of wound you could not get accurate information unless you feel around inside the hole and look into it in detail, and I certainly didn't do that, nor did I see anyone else do that."
Dr. Paul Peters, also concedes his initial impression was inaccurate: ". . . I now believe the head wound is more forward than I first placed it. More to the side than the rear." Dr. Pepper Jenkins states, "The autopsy photo, with the rear of the head intact and a protrusion in the parietal [side] region, is the way I remember it. I never did say occipital."
"I don't think any of us got a good look at the head wound," says Dr. Malcolm Perry. "I did not look at it that closely. . . . But like everyone else, I saw it back there. It was in the occipital/parietal area. The occipital and parietal bone join each other, so we are only talking a centimeter or so in difference. And you must remember the President had a lot of hair, and it was bloody and matted, and it was difficult to tell where the wound started or finished."
Dr. Charles Baxter concurs: "He had such a bushy head of hair, and blood and all in it, you couldn't tell what was the wound versus dried blood or dangling tissue. I have been misquoted enough on this, some saying I claimed the whole back of his head was blown away. That's just wrong. I never even saw the back of his head. The wound was on the right side, not the back."
Dr. Ronald Jones confirms his colleagues' observations, adding he did not even realize for several minutes that there was a head wound. He finally noticed there was a "large side wound, with blood and tissue that extended toward the rear, from what you could tell of the mess that was there."
Dr. Malcolm Perry was one of five doctors who saw the President's throat wound before it was obliterated by a tracheotomy incision; it was Dr. Perry who performed the tracheotomy, and who later stated at a press conference that the wound "appeared to be an entrance wound."
Dr. Perry has this to say: "As the press is wont to do, they took my statement at the press conference out of context. I did say it looked like an entrance wound since it was small, but I qualified it by saying that I did not know where the bullets came from. I wish now that I had not speculated. Everyone ignored my qualification. It was a small wound, slightly ragged at the edges, and could have been an exit or entrance. By Sunday, after working on Oswald, I had learned my lesson, and I handed out a written statement to the press and took no questions. I had got a lot smarter in two days."
Dr. Ronald Jones, one of Parkland's senior resident surgeons, also saw the throat wound. He says, "The neck wound could have been either an entrance or an exit. I only called it an entrance wound because I did not know about the back wound." Dr. Charles James Carrico and Dr. Charles Baxter likewise said the wound could have been an entrance or exit wound.
All of these doctors said the same thing in their Warren Commission depositions: that the throat wound could have been either one of entrance or one of exit.
Of the five doctors who saw the wound, Dr. Pepper Jenkins had the most experience with gunshot wounds of anyone at Parkland. Jenkins says, "Even at that time, I was convinced it was a wound of exit because it was bigger than an entrance wound should be. Entrance wounds, as you look at them, are small and round, and may have a halo around them, black, from the bullet. But it makes a clean wound. When a bullet goes through the body, tissue moves in front of it and bursts."
The President's body was never turned over at Parkland; his head wounds were never inspected there. The Parkland staff engaged in one activity only at that time: to try to save the President's life.
When these statements [of the Parkland personnel] are read in total, however, one sees that the Dallas doctors often prefaced their statements with phrases like "I really didn't get a good look at it, but . . ." or "I could be wrong, because we never lifted the head . . ." or "I was at the other end of the table, but I glimpsed out of the corner of my eye . . ." Critics never include these qualifications in their accounts of the Dallas statements. One of the attending physicians, Dr. Charles James Carrico, recalls, "Everyone in the room was trying to save a life, not figure out forensics . . . We were trying to save a life, not worrying about entry and exit wounds." Dr. Pepper Jenkins told the Journal of the American Medical Association in 1992:
"I was standing at the head of the table in the position the anesthesiologist most often assumes -- closest to the President's head. My presence there and the President's great shock of hair were such that it was not visible to those standing down each side of the gurney where they were carrying out their resuscitative maneuvers."
The bottom line is that the overwhelming majority of those in the crowded trauma room agree with the Besthesda autopsy findings of a rear-entering shot.
My thanks to Dave Reitzes for this information.
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March 13, 2010, 05:10:03 AM
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Super Member
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Mr. Holt, please satisfy my curiosity. Why would you continually depend on the unreliability of eyewitness testimony and totally ignore every single piece of ballistic evidence proving Oswald did the deed? This kind of thinking is totally irrational. In every murder case in the history of jurisprudence scientific and ballistic evidence trumps witness testimony. You claim the Warren Commission altered or changed evidence (correct me if you didn't say this) of which of course there is no proof and yet.............because of your "anybody" but Oswald mentality, you ignore actual evidence. How rational does this sound to you?
FACTS beyond dispute (unless of course you're a CT)
1. Oswald ordered both the weapons that killed JFK and Tippitt in March 63.
2. Oswald attempts the assassination of General Walker.
3. Oswald is photographed by wife Marina at the Neely Street address with both weapons. Photos authenticated by the HSCA. Pictures taken on Oswalds cameral to the exclusion of any other camera on earth. As late as August, 2000 Marina confirms she took the photos.
4. MC kept wrapped in a blanket in the Paine garage per Marina.
5. Oswald arrived at the home of Ruth Paine on 11/21. On 11/22, the rifle was missing.
6. Oswald carries MC into the TSBD on 11/22.
7. Oswald is observed leaving the TSBD at approximately 12:35 PM carrying nothing.
8. MC found on the 6th floor of the TSBD.
9. Oswalds fingerprints found on trigger housing of MC.
10. Fibers from Oswalds shirt match fibers found on the butt plate.
11. Fibers from the blanket that housed the MC in the Paine garage found on the bag Oswald carried into the TSBD.
12. Oswald, to the exclusion of any other human being in the city of Dallas (1963 population - 700,000) owned and possessed both the murder weapons of JFK and Officer Tippit.
The question to rational people is not whether Oswald committed the crimes; he obviously did based on the evidence. The true question is: Was there somebody behind Oswald giving the orders? And, it's safe to say after 46 years...............there was not. Why? Because there is no evidence to suggest this, contrary to the crap put out by the authors of conspiracy books.
Mr. May, Perhaps you forgot one addressee in the greeting. This could well have been sent to Robert Harris as well. FWIW Mike Mike, quite candidly I find Harris to be obnoxious and a fringe cook. He doesn't deserve a seat at serious JFK discussion. Gary Holt has promise. He's simply confused 
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"Life is not a problem to be solved. It is a mystery to be lived".
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March 13, 2010, 10:48:15 AM
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Super Member
Posts: 9143
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Mr. Holt, please satisfy my curiosity. Why would you continually depend on the unreliability of eyewitness testimony and totally ignore every single piece of ballistic evidence proving Oswald did the deed? This kind of thinking is totally irrational. In every murder case in the history of jurisprudence scientific and ballistic evidence trumps witness testimony. You claim the Warren Commission altered or changed evidence (correct me if you didn't say this) of which of course there is no proof and yet.............because of your "anybody" but Oswald mentality, you ignore actual evidence. How rational does this sound to you?
FACTS beyond dispute (unless of course you're a CT)
1. Oswald ordered both the weapons that killed JFK and Tippitt in March 63.
2. Oswald attempts the assassination of General Walker.
3. Oswald is photographed by wife Marina at the Neely Street address with both weapons. Photos authenticated by the HSCA. Pictures taken on Oswalds cameral to the exclusion of any other camera on earth. As late as August, 2000 Marina confirms she took the photos.
4. MC kept wrapped in a blanket in the Paine garage per Marina.
5. Oswald arrived at the home of Ruth Paine on 11/21. On 11/22, the rifle was missing.
6. Oswald carries MC into the TSBD on 11/22.
7. Oswald is observed leaving the TSBD at approximately 12:35 PM carrying nothing.
8. MC found on the 6th floor of the TSBD.
9. Oswalds fingerprints found on trigger housing of MC.
10. Fibers from Oswalds shirt match fibers found on the butt plate.
11. Fibers from the blanket that housed the MC in the Paine garage found on the bag Oswald carried into the TSBD.
12. Oswald, to the exclusion of any other human being in the city of Dallas (1963 population - 700,000) owned and possessed both the murder weapons of JFK and Officer Tippit.
The question to rational people is not whether Oswald committed the crimes; he obviously did based on the evidence. The true question is: Was there somebody behind Oswald giving the orders? And, it's safe to say after 46 years...............there was not. Why? Because there is no evidence to suggest this, contrary to the crap put out by the authors of conspiracy books.
Mr. May, Perhaps you forgot one addressee in the greeting. This could well have been sent to Robert Harris as well. FWIW Mike Mike, quite candidly I find Harris to be obnoxious and a fringe cook. He doesn't deserve a seat at serious JFK discussion. Gary Holt has promise. He's simply confused Paul, I could not agree more. Gary brought up a great point in one of my previous posts, and I enjoy discussing issues with him. Mike
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Marsh can not even comprehend a simple time stamp. How will he ever comprehend the evidence?
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March 13, 2010, 02:01:21 PM
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Sr. Member
Posts: 261
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Gary, I am simply asking you to give us an exact example of the Warren Commission altering or destroying evidence.
You're not the only one. I find it kind of funny, he talks about it all the time, but doesn't give any example. Then, he finally posts a link to some text, which doesn't provide any examples or further proof either, but only the same old "WC were like bad guys who were like not in it for the like truth and were like being paid to like frame that guy Oswald". Gary, you need to more critical of your sources. You can't just believe everything you read, as you seem to do, you have to question it and see if it has anything to it. The link you posted clearly has nothing to it. I think many LN's, including myself, were exactly like you once, believing in the same things, you just have to be a more critical reader and you will learn the truth once.
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I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness.
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March 13, 2010, 02:42:31 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 841
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Bill and Paul...I got to give you credit...(and your young wannabe Andreas too I suppose)You are truly devoted to your cause, no amount of evidence, no testimony, no expert witnesses, nothing will sway you from your LN beliefs. In a way I admire your dedication, but can't help feeling sorry for your inability to understand what's right in front of your nose. Trying so hard to find the forest, but those darn tree's keep getting in the way.
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Dream As If You'll Live Forever
Live As If You'll Die Today
It Don't Hurt Till The Bone Shows
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March 13, 2010, 03:01:26 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 8002
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Mr. Holt, please satisfy my curiosity. Why would you continually depend on the unreliability of eyewitness testimony and totally ignore every single piece of ballistic evidence proving Oswald did the deed? This kind of thinking is totally irrational. In every murder case in the history of jurisprudence, scientific and ballistic evidence trumps witness testimony. You claim the Warren Commission altered or changed evidence (correct me if you didn't say this) of which of course there is no proof and yet.............because of your "anybody" but Oswald mentality, you ignore actual evidence. How rational does this sound to you?
FACTS beyond dispute (unless of course you're a CT)
1. Oswald ordered both the weapons that killed JFK and Tippitt in March 63.
2. Oswald attempts the assassination of General Walker.
3. Oswald is photographed by wife Marina at the Neely Street address with both weapons. Photos authenticated by the HSCA. Pictures taken on Oswalds cameral to the exclusion of any other camera on earth. As late as August, 2000 Marina confirms she took the photos.
4. MC kept wrapped in a blanket in the Paine garage per Marina.
5. Oswald arrived at the home of Ruth Paine on 11/21. On 11/22, the rifle was missing.
6. Oswald carries MC into the TSBD on 11/22.
7. Oswald is observed leaving the TSBD at approximately 12:35 PM carrying nothing.
8. MC found on the 6th floor of the TSBD.
9. Oswalds fingerprints found on trigger housing of MC.
10. Fibers from Oswalds shirt match fibers found on the butt plate.
11. Fibers from the blanket that housed the MC in the Paine garage found on the bag Oswald carried into the TSBD.
12. Oswald, to the exclusion of any other human being in the city of Dallas (1963 population - 700,000) owned and possessed both the murder weapons of JFK and Officer Tippit. This FACT in itself proves Oswalds guilt. DNA numbers.
The question to rational people is not whether Oswald committed the crimes; he obviously did based on the evidence. The true question is: Was there somebody behind Oswald giving the orders? And, it's safe to say after 46 years...............there was not. Why? Because there is no evidence to suggest this, contrary to the crap put out by the authors of conspiracy books.
1. Oswald ordered both the weapons that killed JFK and Tippitt in March 63. No. Lee did not.2. Oswald attempts the assassination of General Walker. No. Lee did not.3. Oswald is photographed by wife Marina at the Neely Street address with both weapons. Photos authenticated by the HSCA. Pictures taken on Oswalds cameral to the exclusion of any other camera on earth. As late as August, 2000 Marina confirms she took the photos. These photos do not prove that Lee fired a shot.4. MC kept wrapped in a blanket in the Paine garage per Marina. No. It was not.5. Oswald arrived at the home of Ruth Paine on 11/21. On 11/22, the rifle was missing. Not proven.6. Oswald carries MC into the TSBD on 11/22. Not proven. Contradicted by other evidence.7. Oswald is observed leaving the TSBD at approximately 12:35 PM carrying nothing. So, what?8. MC found on the 6th floor of the TSBD. Not proven.9. Oswalds fingerprints found on trigger housing of MC. In dispute.10. Fibers from Oswalds shirt match fibers found on the butt plate. Not proven.11. Fibers from the blanket that housed the MC in the Paine garage found on the bag Oswald carried into the TSBD. Bag is not photographed in place.12. Oswald, to the exclusion of any other human being in the city of Dallas (1963 population - 700,000) owned and possessed both the murder weapons of JFK and Officer Tippit. This FACT in itself proves Oswalds guilt. DNA numbers. Not proven. Lee could not receive Hidell packages at his PO Box.
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« Last Edit: March 13, 2010, 03:33:04 PM by Miles Scull »
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March 13, 2010, 03:06:50 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 8002
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One way to implement a coverup is simply to avoid looking for the truth, and the Commission did this expertly. Readers of the voluminous transcripts in the published Warren Commission volumes are repeatedly treated to examples of a Commissioner or staffer changing the subject, going off the record, or even ending an interview when certain topics were inadvertantly broached. Some witnesses, particularly medical ones, were furnished with torturously-worded leading questions designed to elicit the proper response. Despite all this, some truths kept breaking through. Witnesses described hearing four or more shots, in many cases from the "grassy knoll" area. Others saw or smelled smoke in this area, or hit the dirt because they felt that gunfire was whizzing over their head. Avoid looking for the truth? The Warren Commission reviewed and expanded upon CIA, Secret Service, and FBI investigations. The Commission interviewed and evaluated the testimony of 552 witnesses. The Commission visited Dealey Plaza and oversaw the writing of the final report (containing 888 pages), which was presented to LBJ in September of 1964. When I read witness testimony in the Warren Commission, I do not see examples of the Commission "not looking for the truth". But besides simple prejudice toward the desired finding, known coverup activities were sometimes more extreme. They included the destruction, manufacture, and alteration of some of the basic evidence in the case. Some of these acts have been admitted over the years, such as the FBI's hiding of Oswald's miniature Minox "spy" camera, and the destruction of a note he delivered to the FBI several days before the assassination. Much has never been admitted and remains disputed; some of the essays on this website will explore the scientific and circumstantial evidence that these acts did occur. "...destruction, manufacture, and alteration of some of the basic evidence in the case."?? I simply will need to see exact examples, if that quote is indeed referring to the Warren Commission. The note that Oswald delivered to the FBI was destroyed by the FBI, not by the Warren Commission. Anyone should know this. Gary, your quote above surely is not saying that the Warren Commission destroyed that note. Yet, that was your claim, that the WC destroyed evidence. You have yet to quote examples of the WC destroying evidence. Gary, I am simply asking you to give us an exact example of the Warren Commission altering or destroying evidence.
That is altering evidence by omitting it.
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March 13, 2010, 03:08:14 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 8002
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The Warren Commission, operating during the Cold War, had to keep some facts secret, and some information was kept from it. No new discovery that has come out in the years following the assassination have altered the accuracy of the commission's findings.
The WC's findings have been exposed as false.
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March 13, 2010, 03:13:23 PM
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Super Member
Posts: 2906
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Mr. Holt, please satisfy my curiosity. Why would you continually depend on the unreliability of eyewitness testimony and totally ignore every single piece of ballistic evidence proving Oswald did the deed? This kind of thinking is totally irrational. In every murder case in the history of jurisprudence, scientific and ballistic evidence trumps witness testimony. You claim the Warren Commission altered or changed evidence (correct me if you didn't say this) of which of course there is no proof and yet.............because of your "anybody" but Oswald mentality, you ignore actual evidence. How rational does this sound to you?
FACTS beyond dispute (unless of course you're a CT)
1. Oswald ordered both the weapons that killed JFK and Tippitt in March 63.
2. Oswald attempts the assassination of General Walker.
3. Oswald is photographed by wife Marina at the Neely Street address with both weapons. Photos authenticated by the HSCA. Pictures taken on Oswalds cameral to the exclusion of any other camera on earth. As late as August, 2000 Marina confirms she took the photos.
4. MC kept wrapped in a blanket in the Paine garage per Marina.
5. Oswald arrived at the home of Ruth Paine on 11/21. On 11/22, the rifle was missing.
6. Oswald carries MC into the TSBD on 11/22.
7. Oswald is observed leaving the TSBD at approximately 12:35 PM carrying nothing.
8. MC found on the 6th floor of the TSBD.
9. Oswalds fingerprints found on trigger housing of MC.
10. Fibers from Oswalds shirt match fibers found on the butt plate.
11. Fibers from the blanket that housed the MC in the Paine garage found on the bag Oswald carried into the TSBD.
12. Oswald, to the exclusion of any other human being in the city of Dallas (1963 population - 700,000) owned and possessed both the murder weapons of JFK and Officer Tippit. This FACT in itself proves Oswalds guilt. DNA numbers.
The question to rational people is not whether Oswald committed the crimes; he obviously did based on the evidence. The true question is: Was there somebody behind Oswald giving the orders? And, it's safe to say after 46 years...............there was not. Why? Because there is no evidence to suggest this, contrary to the crap put out by the authors of conspiracy books.
1. Oswald ordered both the weapons that killed JFK and Tippitt in March 63. No. Lee did not.2. Oswald attempts the assassination of General Walker. No. Lee dis not.3. Oswald is photographed by wife Marina at the Neely Street address with both weapons. Photos authenticated by the HSCA. Pictures taken on Oswalds cameral to the exclusion of any other camera on earth. As late as August, 2000 Marina confirms she took the photos. These photos do not prove that Lee fired a shot.4. MC kept wrapped in a blanket in the Paine garage per Marina. No. It was not.5. Oswald arrived at the home of Ruth Paine on 11/21. On 11/22, the rifle was missing. Not proven.6. Oswald carries MC into the TSBD on 11/22. 7. Oswald is observed leaving the TSBD at approximately 12:35 PM carrying nothing. So, what?8. MC found on the 6th floor of the TSBD. Not proven.9. Oswalds fingerprints found on trigger housing of MC. In dispute.10. Fibers from Oswalds shirt match fibers found on the butt plate. Not proven.11. Fibers from the blanket that housed the MC in the Paine garage found on the bag Oswald carried into the TSBD. Bag is not photographed in place.12. Oswald, to the exclusion of any other human being in the city of Dallas (1963 population - 700,000) owned and possessed both the murder weapons of JFK and Officer Tippit. This FACT in itself proves Oswalds guilt. DNA numbers. Not proven. Lee could not receive Hidell packages at his PO Box.Miles, you are the poster boy for conspiracy theory. The fact that you can even dispute the above 12 facts 46 years later is an indictment of all that is wrong with conspiracy theory. I'd have more respect for you if you simply admitted "it's possible". Can we prove with 100% certainty that Oswald pulled the trigger? No we cannot and I want to emphasize this. However, the circumstantial case against Oswald through the 12 items above in addition to Howard Brennan's testimony is 99.9% conclusive. Anythhing else is pure hogwash.
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