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 November 09, 2009, 07:35:56 AM
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Robert,
Do you believe Oswald was guilty of anything on 11/22/63? In particular, do you believe Oswald killed Tippit?
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"The TRUTH doesn't require anyone's belief." - Dale Myers
"The human mind craves a mystery more than it loves the truth." - Dan Rather
"Reason does not always appeal to unreasonable men." - John F. Kennedy
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November 10, 2009, 08:05:40 PM
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BTW Bill, if you think it was just random coincidence that Oswald was on a direct course to Ruby's apartment, then what do you suppose the odds are that the only person out of hundreds of thousands outside of the DP area to be randomly stopped, was Oswald - a guy who was both younger and not as heavy as the description that was being put out at the time?? Oswald was the only person apprehended/stopped by the police that day? Really? If you watch live broadcasts from that day you would clearly see the reporters state over and over again about a car being stopped in Fort Worth and the suspect arrested, etc... Do you really know for sure Robert, that Oswald was "the only person out of hundreds of thousands outside of the DP area to be randomly stopped"? And did you ever wonder why Oswald wasn't able to talk his way out of the situation, as he did at the Depository? I can only speculate. Maybe the situation/atmosphere was so different that each police officer (Baker and Tippit) was in a different frame of mind than the other. Maybe Baker wanted to get up to a higher floor as fast as he could, who knows, and he felt that he was wasting time talking to an employee on the 2nd floor. Like I said, only speculation.
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November 10, 2009, 08:21:58 PM
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Put yourself in Ruby's shoes, Bill. The LAST thing he could want, was to shoot Oswald, and either be killed himself or face life in prison, if he was lucky. But his mob friends would not have been happy if he bailed on them, unless of course, the situation changed and he had no opportunity.
But what is your point? You have no proof that Ruby was the caller. Bill, I gave you straight answers to your questions and you evaded mine.
Care to try again?
Sure. Ask away.
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November 10, 2009, 10:58:06 PM
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Tippit had absolutely no reason to stop Oswald, who was far from the scene of the crime and based on a description that did not match him. The infinitely more likely answer is that he was looking specifically for Oswald, who was expected to be on the way to Ruby's place. Furthermore, Tippit had to have said something very provocative to get himself killed. The last thing Oswald could have wanted was a confrontation with the police.
Robert, You've certainly filled that paragraph with a lot of absolutes and certainties - a remarkable achievement for someone who wasn't there and couldn't possibly know the things you claim to know. Tippit may have stopped several people PRIOR to stopping Oswald - nothing more than "Have you seen anything suspicious?" We'll never know because we weren't there. Tippit may have simply stopped Oswald because he was a young man walking in a neighborhood within striking distance of Dealey Plaza and thought it best to be prudent. This is simple common sense, but for you, it's an "infinitely more likely answer is that he was looking specifically for Oswald, who was expected to be on the way to Ruby's place." And that's why you have earned a reputation as a peddler of fantasy, despite your otherwise excellent work on the JFK case. Your certainty is your undoing.
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November 10, 2009, 11:19:37 PM
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Full Member
Posts: 220
Through half truths and lies, only Oswald remains
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Yes Robert, Oswald did shoot Tippet. Because he was on the run. Because he had just killed the President.
Saying that Tippet had absolutely no reason to stop Oswald is one of the most foolish things I have ever heard. You don't really believe that do you?
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« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 02:04:17 AM by Marc Crilly »
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Only confirmatory evidence is accepted and contradictions are dismissed as being naive. If evidence appears that refutes the conspiracy, the suppliers of the discrediting material will themselves be accused of being part of the conspiracy.
Robin S. Robins & Jarrold M. Post
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November 10, 2009, 11:35:42 PM
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Full Member
Posts: 220
Through half truths and lies, only Oswald remains
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[And did you ever wonder why Oswald wasn't able to talk his way out of the situation, as he did at the Depository? There is a very simple explanation - he was camouflaged at the Depository. He was just another employee on the 2nd Floor. Baker could not possibly have judged that Oswald was cool and calm in that one moment of chaos. Truly verified that Oswald was an employee. Baker running in quickly checking floors is very different to Tippet stopping an isolated man in the street. The Tippet murder is the key to the whole case. Much like Oswald drawing his gun in the theatre and attempting to shoot the arresting officers. Much like Oswald even carrying a gun. As for Ruby, the man was a lunatic. Why did Britney Spears shave her head? Because she was crazy and wanted attention? Because she felt trapped by the press? Because she felt like it? We will never know. IF and it is a big if, Ruby did call the police station that night, who knows why he did it? Ruby was NOT a mob hitman!!! How many times do you people need to be told this?! He was a low life who has been described by EVERYONE WHO KNEW HIM that he was CRAZY. Why on EARTH would Marcello send an  to silence Oswald after he was in custody for two days? Why would Marcello hand the police someone who was directly connected to him? (even though he wasn't). Robert Harris [/quote]
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November 11, 2009, 12:12:26 AM
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Quote by Robert Harris:Tippit had absolutely no reason to stop Oswald, who was far from the scene of the crime and based on a description that did not match him. The infinitely more likely answer is that he was looking specifically for Oswald, who was expected to be on the way to Ruby's place. Furthermore, Tippit had to have said something very provocative to get himself killed. The last thing Oswald could have wanted was a confrontation with the police This has been gone over time and again in this very forum. Robert, how do you know that Tippit had "absolutely no reason to stop Oswald"? I think that is a very ignorant statement on your part. Who knows what Oswald did upon seeing a police car approach. Was Oswald acting suspicious? Was Oswald onstantly looking all around and over his shoulder? Did Oswald suddenly switch directions upon seeing the police car and Tippit noticed the sudden change in direction? Who really knows why Tippit stopped Oswald. Maybe Tippit stopped Oswald because most people were glued to their tv sets inside their homes and Oswald, walking the streets and fitting the general description of the suspect, stuck out like a sore thumb. Robert, you said that Tippit would have to have said something "very provocative to get himself killed". Another ignorant statement on your part. Are you not aware that Tippit was in the process of taking his revolver out of his holster when he was gunned down by Oswald? Because he fell on his service revolver, it could even be said that Tippit had totally removed the revolver from the holster. If you're Oswald, and you don't want to get arrested, Tippit removing his weapon is all you would need to shoot hm. You would not need to stand there and wait impatiently for Tippit to say something "very provocative" before you shoot him. I would think that the police officer removing his weapon would be enough. Quote by Robert Harris:And why would you not consider the statement from a police officer to be valid evidence? Officer Grammar knew Ruby and recognized his voice.
The guy who called was NOT somebody threatening to avenge the assassination of JFK. He wanted the DPD to changes its plans in order to protect Oswald.
Of course, he was actually trying to protect himself. Shooting Oswald could only result in Ruby getting shot himself, or facing a lifetime in prison. But Marcello and company would not be very happy if he refused to carry out their orders. His only hope would be if the police would make it impossible for him to get to Oswald. Then he would have an excuse. There is just no other explanation for anyone making such a request To claim that Ruby was trying to get out of having to shoot Oswald is ludicrous, in my opinion. It is a statement that is not using logic and common sense. If you're Jack Ruby, and you have to shoot Oswald on the orders from the mob, to disobey their order and succumbing to their wrath, how is that any worse than getting shot or going to prison for life? The theory that Ruby HAD to shoot Oswald just because the mob ordered him to is a poor theory. It does not make sense. So what did Ruby say to himself? Did he say "Gee, I don't want to get killed by a police officer in the basement after I shoot this guy Oswald. Gee, come to think of it, I also don't want to go to prison for life for murder. But the more I think of it, no matter what I can't the higher ups in the mafia, so I better shoot this guy, even though I don't want to."Robert! You're not making sense.
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« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 12:27:33 AM by Bill Brown »
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November 11, 2009, 12:29:08 AM
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Put yourself in Ruby's shoes, Bill. The LAST thing he could want, was to shoot Oswald, and either be killed himself or face life in prison, if he was lucky. But his mob friends would not have been happy if he bailed on them, unless of course, the situation changed and he had no opportunity.
But what is your point? You have no proof that Ruby was the caller. Bill, I gave you straight answers to your questions and you evaded mine.
Care to try again?
Sure. Ask away. Bill, you completely evaded my question about Tippit randomly choosing to stop Oswald. I am not familiar with some car being stopped in Ft Worth, but if it was, I'll bet there was cause for it. And even if there was not, you are evading the gist of the issue, which is that it makes no sense at all that Oswald was randomly selected to be stopped, in an area with over a million people. Tippit had absolutely no reason to stop Oswald, who was far from the scene of the crime and based on a description that did not match him. The infinitely more likely answer is that he was looking specifically for Oswald, who was expected to be on the way to Ruby's place. Furthermore, Tippit had to have said something very provocative to get himself killed. The last thing Oswald could have wanted was a confrontation with the police. And why would you not consider the statement from a police officer to be valid evidence? Officer Grammar knew Ruby and recognized his voice. The guy who called was NOT somebody threatening to avenge the assassination of JFK. He wanted the DPD to changes its plans in order to protect Oswald. Of course, he was actually trying to protect himself. Shooting Oswald could only result in Ruby getting shot himself, or facing a lifetime in prison. But Marcello and company would not be very happy if he refused to carry out their orders. His only hope would be if the police would make it impossible for him to get to Oswald. Then he would have an excuse. There is just no other explanation for anyone making such a request. Can you think of one, Bill? Robert Harris Hi Robert, you certainly have some interesting theories there, do you mind if I give an opinion on some? The FT Worth incident was first mentioned in an article by Duke Lane and your right, it has no relevance to the assassination whatsoever. But I don’t believe Bill was suggesting that it did, he was making the point that many suspects were stopped that day. Not just Oswald. As for why Tippit stopped Oswald ..well, of course we will never really know will we? But a far simpler explanation than your own is that when Oswald saw the police car he acted suspicious in same way, as we don’t even know Oswald’s route for certain he may have actually been walking towards the car and turned around in his tracks when he spotted it. We just don’t know. The statement by officer Grammar is certainly worth taken into consideration but without anything to back it up it’s really quite meaningless. And Grammar wouldn’t be the first officer to let his imagination run riot; Roger Craig is an excellent example. Finally, in your theory, you said Ruby’s options weren’t good, either do as the mob ordered and serve life or possible execution or disobey and get ‘hit’, but you don’t seem to consider that Ruby did in fact have a third option, he could have simply ‘flipped’ and told the police/CIA everything. In fact out of those three options I would say the last would be the most logical, especially as Ruby would have known that he would have had to be eventually ‘got rid of ‘ himself. The mob doesn’t like loose ends. Just my opinion FWIW.
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« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 12:51:15 AM by Denis Pointing »
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November 11, 2009, 08:37:29 AM
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Quote by Denis Pointing:Hi Robert, you certainly have some interesting theories there, do you mind if I give an opinion on some? The FT Worth incident was first mentioned in an article by Duke Lane and your right, it has no relevance to the assassination whatsoever. But I don’t believe Bill was suggesting that it did, he was making the point that many suspects were stopped that day. Not just Oswald.
As for why Tippit stopped Oswald ..well, of course we will never really know will we? But a far simpler explanation than your own is that when Oswald saw the police car he acted suspicious in same way, as we don’t even know Oswald’s route for certain he may have actually been walking towards the car and turned around in his tracks when he spotted it. We just don’t know.
The statement by officer Grammar is certainly worth taken into consideration but without anything to back it up it’s really quite meaningless. And Grammar wouldn’t be the first officer to let his imagination run riot; Roger Craig is an excellent example.
Finally, in your theory, you said Ruby’s options weren’t good, either do as the mob ordered and serve life or possible execution or disobey and get ‘hit’, but you don’t seem to consider that Ruby did in fact have a third option, he could have simply ‘flipped’ and told the police/CIA everything. In fact out of those three options I would say the last would be the most logical, especially as Ruby would have known that he would have had to be eventually ‘got rid of ‘ himself. The mob doesn’t like loose ends.
Just my opinion FWIW. Thanks Denis, and a very good post. Just an FYI, I haven't seen the article by Duke Lane that mentions the Fort Worth incident. I heard about it as I was watching footage of the live broadcasts, as it was mentioned live on the air that afternoon when early details were still sketchy and confusing.
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« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 08:40:58 AM by Bill Brown »
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November 11, 2009, 09:10:01 PM
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Quote by Robert Harris:Tippit had absolutely no reason to stop Oswald, who was far from the scene of the crime and based on a description that did not match him. The infinitely more likely answer is that he was looking specifically for Oswald, who was expected to be on the way to Ruby's place. Furthermore, Tippit had to have said something very provocative to get himself killed. The last thing Oswald could have wanted was a confrontation with the police This has been gone over time and again in this very forum. Robert, how do you know that Tippit had "absolutely no reason to stop Oswald"? I think that is a very ignorant statement on your part. Who knows what Oswald did upon seeing a police car approach. Was Oswald acting suspicious? Was Oswald onstantly looking all around and over his shoulder? Did Oswald suddenly switch directions upon seeing the police car and Tippit noticed the sudden change in direction? Who really knows why Tippit stopped Oswald. Maybe Tippit stopped Oswald because most people were glued to their tv sets inside their homes and Oswald, walking the streets and fitting the general description of the suspect, stuck out like a sore thumb. Robert, you said that Tippit would have to have said something "very provocative to get himself killed". Another ignorant statement on your part. Are you not aware that Tippit was in the process of taking his revolver out of his holster when he was gunned down by Oswald? Because he fell on his service revolver, it could even be said that Tippit had totally removed the revolver from the holster. If you're Oswald, and you don't want to get arrested, Tippit removing his weapon is all you would need to shoot hm. You would not need to stand there and wait impatiently for Tippit to say something "very provocative" before you shoot him. I would think that the police officer removing his weapon would be enough. Quote by Robert Harris:And why would you not consider the statement from a police officer to be valid evidence? Officer Grammar knew Ruby and recognized his voice.
The guy who called was NOT somebody threatening to avenge the assassination of JFK. He wanted the DPD to changes its plans in order to protect Oswald.
Of course, he was actually trying to protect himself. Shooting Oswald could only result in Ruby getting shot himself, or facing a lifetime in prison. But Marcello and company would not be very happy if he refused to carry out their orders. His only hope would be if the police would make it impossible for him to get to Oswald. Then he would have an excuse. There is just no other explanation for anyone making such a request To claim that Ruby was trying to get out of having to shoot Oswald is ludicrous, in my opinion. It is a statement that is not using logic and common sense. If you're Jack Ruby, and you have to shoot Oswald on the orders from the mob, to disobey their order and succumbing to their wrath, how is that any worse than getting shot or going to prison for life? The theory that Ruby HAD to shoot Oswald just because the mob ordered him to is a poor theory. It does not make sense. So what did Ruby say to himself? Did he say "Gee, I don't want to get killed by a police officer in the basement after I shoot this guy Oswald. Gee, come to think of it, I also don't want to go to prison for life for murder. But the more I think of it, no matter what I can't the higher ups in the mafia, so I better shoot this guy, even though I don't want to."Robert! You're not making sense. Bill, you obviously, have not done any research into the Tippit issue. Before you make a bigger fool out of yoursefl, calling me "ignorant" why don't you take a look at this article and learn exactly what officer Tippit was doing during the final moments of his life? As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
Register or LoginObviously, the answer to your second question is "yes". Ruby did not want to go to prison or die. No, I can't prove that, but the man never to my knowledge, showed signs of any suicidal impulses. And yes, if the DPD removed any opportunity for Ruby to get to Oswald, then he would have had an acceptable excuse for not shooting Oswald. I'm really not sure what your argument here is, Bill. Do you deny this very simple logic? And why won't you answer my other question? If that wasn't Ruby, then who else might have been calling, trying to protect Oswald that way? Robert Harris Robert, I did not call you ignorant, but hey, if the shoe fits..... I don't need you to post any link to an article regarding Tippit's last moments. I read that article 7 years ago. It didn't prove anything then and it still doesn't prove anything today, simple as that! How in the hell am I supposed to know who made the phone call? Unlike you, I am going to try to avoid speculation.
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November 11, 2009, 11:01:01 PM
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Hi Robert, thanks for the link to the article you wrote, very interesting and if I may say so without sounding patronising extremely well written. It didn’t convince me of Ruby’s guilt of course but…I guess you didn’t really expect it to.
Robert, were far too polarised on this to ever agree so rather than exchange post after post may I just jump to my main problem with the Ruby connection? It’s the timing, we know Ruby was in the Western Union office as late 11.17 am and that he gunned down Oswald at 11.21 am. Robert that timing just doesn’t work, the coolest hit man in the world isn’t going to allow himself just four minutes to prepare himself and get into position. Even a hardened professional, which I don’t think even you believe Ruby was, would surly get to the scene at least 15/20 min before the hit. Any thoughts?
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« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 12:16:14 AM by Denis Pointing »
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November 12, 2009, 06:38:29 AM
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We don't know when Ruby arrived at the Western Union office, but we do know that his timing was perfect. It had to be because he did not have a press badge and would likely have been thrown out if he got there early. There were no cell phones back then, so a great place to hang around waiting for a call was a Western Union office, with lots of phones on the wall. My suspicion is that someone with DPD phoned him to let him know that Oswald was OTW. That same person could have phoned him at home to let him know there would be a delay and to suggest when Oswald would be moved. To think that this perfect timing was another one of those miraculous coincidences is just too much. It seems far more probable that he was told when to go in. Only a rabid conspiracy theorist, bent on believing in a "Ruby conspiracy" at all costs, could possibly utter the things Robert Harris just uttered above. And this comment from Harris just reeks of crazy, backward thinking: "To think that this perfect timing was another one of those miraculous coincidences is just too much."In reality, of course, the exact OPPOSITE is true. I.E. -- the "perfect timing" is much more indicative of pure happenstance and NO CONSPIRACY PLOT than it is indicative of Jack Ruby being sent to the Dallas City Hall basement to "rub out" Lee Oswald as part of a pre-arranged murder scheme. And Bob Harris must also believe that Karen Carlin was a very big part of this last-minute Sunday-morning plot to rub out Oswald too. Because it was Carlin's telephone call to Ruby at about 10:20 AM that prompted Ruby to leave his apartment when he did on 11/24/63. In short -- People who think ANY of Jack Ruby's actions on November 24th, 1963, spell out "I'M A HIT MAN FOR THE MOB AND I'M GOING TO SILENCE LEE OSWALD THIS MORNING" are simply not thinking straight, and are attempting to fit a square conspiracy peg into a perfectly-round no conspiracy hole. ================================================ RELATED ARTICLES:JACK RUBY AND KAREN CARLIN: As a guest, you are not allowed to view links.
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« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 07:06:56 AM by David Von Pein »
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