Here is what Arnold Rowland said
Mr. ROWLAND - At the time I saw the man in the other window, I saw this man hanging out the window first. It was a colored man
, I think.
Representative FORD - Is this the same window where you saw the man standing with the rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND - No; this was the one on the east end of the building, the one that they said the shots were fired from
Representative FORD - I am not clear on this now. The window that you saw the man that you describe was on what end of the building?
Mr. ROWLAND - The west, southwest corner.
Representative FORD - And the man you saw hanging out from the window was at what corner?
Mr. ROWLAND - The east, southeast corner.
Representative FORD - Southeast corner. On the same floor?
Mr. ROWLAND - On the same floor.
Representative FORD - When did you notice him?
Mr. ROWLAND - This was before I noticed the other man with the rifle. <- this had to be before 12.15 pm
Representative FORD - I see. This was before you saw the man in the window with the rifle?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - At about what time was it that you observed someone hanging out of the window that you have marked as window "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND - Again about 12:15 just before I noticed the other man
Mr. SPECTER - How much of that window was open?
Mr. ROWLAND - It was open about that far.
Mr. SPECTER - Indicating 2 1/2 feet?
Mr. ROWLAND - Two feet.
Mr. SPECTER - Two feet.
Mr. ROWLAND - Indicating 2 feet. It looked like the windows might open 3--two-thirds or three-fourths of the distance.
Mr. SPECTER - How about the other of the windows in the double-set marked "A," was that completely closed?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - How about the windows in the group marked "B," was either of those windows open?
Mr. ROWLAND - They were both completely open.
Mr. ROWLAND - I understand the question.
Let me see, the exact time I do not remember, but the man, the colored man, was in that window until the procession reached Commerce I mean Main, and Ervay.
I was looking back quite often, as I stated.
Mr. SPECTER - How do you fix the time that he was there until the procession reached the intersection of Commerce and Ervay?
Mr. ROWLAND - The police motorcycle was almost in front of me with the speaker on very loud, giving the relative position about every 15 or 20 seconds of the motorcade,
and this is how I was able to note that.
Mr. SPECTER - Were you observing the window which you marked "A" at the time he departed?
Mr. ROWLAND - No, I didn't. I just know, I was looking at the crowd around. and then I glanced back up again, and neither did I see the man with the rifle nor did I see him. The colored man went away.
Mr. SPECTER - How long was that after you first noticed the colored man in the window "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND - Fifteen minutes.
Mr. SPECTER - Had you looked back at window "A" at any time during that 15 minute interval?
Mr. ROWLAND - Yes.
Mr. SPECTER - Had you seen anybody in window "A" during that time?
Mr. ROWLAND - The colored man was that--
Mr. SPECTER - So how many times did you notice him altogether?
Mr. ROWLAND - Several. I think I looked back about two, maybe three times a minute, an average. I was, you know, trying to find the man with the rifle to point him out to my wife. I noticed the colored man in that window.
I looked at practically every window in the building but I didn't look at anything with the detail to see what I was looking for.
Mr. SPECTER - Over how long a time span did you observe the Negro man to be in the window marked "A"?
Mr. ROWLAND - He was there before I noticed the man with the rifle and approximately 12:30 or when the motorcade was at Main and Ervay he was gone when I looked back and I had looked up there about 30 seconds before or a minute before.
Mr. SPECTER - How long after you heard the motorcade was at Main and Ervay did the motorcade pass by where you were?
Mr. ROWLAND - Another 5 minutes. The Negro man left at around 12.25 pm
Mr. SPECTER - So that you observed this colored man on the window you have marked "A" within 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade passed in front of you?
Mr. ROWLAND - Approximately 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade came, he wasn't there. About 30 seconds or a minute prior to that time he was there. The Negro in the SN
Mr. SPECTER - Mr. Rowland, a couple of other questions.
Are you able to give us any other type of a description of the Negro gentleman whom you observed in the window we marked "A" with respect to height, weight, age?
Mr. ROWLAND - He was very thin, an elderly gentleman, bald or practically bald, very thin hair if he wasn't bald.
Had on a plaid shirt. I think it was red and green, very bright color,
that is why I remember it.
Mr. SPECTER - Can you give us an estimate as to age?
Mr. ROWLAND - Fifty; possibly 55 or 60.
Mr. SPECTER - Can you give us an estimate as to height?
Mr. ROWLAND - 5'8", 5'10", in that neighborhood. He was very slender, very thin.
Mr. SPECTER - Can you give us a more definite description as to complexion?
Mr. ROWLAND - Very dark or fairly dark, not real dark compared to some Negroes, but fairly dark. Seemed like his face was either--I can't recall detail but it was either very wrinkled or marked in some way.
Mr. WILLIAMS. I went back up to the sixth floor.
Mr. BALL. Why did you go to the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor
. I think Billy Lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. And also my friend; this Spanish boy, by the name of Danny Arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. So I thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor
Mr. BALL. Did anybody go back?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Nobody came back up. So I just left.
Mr. DULLES. You ate your lunch on the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir
Mr. DULLES. And you were all alone?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. What did you sit on while you ate your lunch?
Mr. WILLIAMS. First of all, I remember there was some boxes behind me. I just kind of leaned back on the boxes first
. Then I began to get a little impatient, because there wasn't anyone coming up. So I decided to move to a two-wheeler.
Mr. DULLES. How much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? Was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high
. I could see only in the path that I was standing--as I remember, I could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building.
But just one aisle, the aisle I was standing in I could see just about to the west side of the building. So far as seeing to the east and behind me, I could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me.
Mr. BALL. Why did you stop on the fifth floor?
Mr. WILLIAMS. To see if there was anyone there.
Mr. BALL. Did you know there was anyone there before you started down?
Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, I thought I heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. I said maybe someone is down there, I said to myself. And I just went on down.
Mr. BALL. Did you find anybody there?
Mr. WILLIAMS. As I remember, when I was walking up, I think Harold Norman and James Jarman as I remember, they was down facing the Elm Street on the fifth floor, as I rememberDid Rowland see BRW?
What he got right -
Fairly dark/Very dark
Green shirt (no red though)
Did the white powder in BRW's hair cause him to have the appearance of being
bald or practically bold
Very thin hair
face wrinkled or marked?
Mr. JARMAN - Hank said, Harold Norman, rather, said that he thought the shots had came from above us, and I noticed that Bonnie Ray had a few debris in his head. It was sort of white stuff, or something
, and I told him not to brush it out, but he did anyway.
Mr. BALL - He had some white what, like plaster?
Mr. JARMAN - Like some come off a brick or plaster or something.
The white on his shirt was likely from him leaning on the bricks of the TSBD depository windows. Anyone have a colour picture?
If yes, we have the sniper AND BRW who was in the SN for at least 10 minutes on the very same floor together.
Rowland was taken to pieces by the WC and the FBI didn't want to know about Negro men in the SN window.
Rowland told the truth. He saw BRW (with the white powder in his hair).
Mr. NORMAN. Well, we stayed there I believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that Commerce, no Main, because Commerce- we went beck in the building, James Jarman and I.
Mr. BALL. Where did you go when you went in the building?
Mr. NORMAN. We got the east elevator. No; the west.
Mr. BALL. The west elevator?
Mr. NORMAN. The west elevator. And went to the fifth floor.
Representative FORD - And where did you get on the elevator?
Mr. JARMAN - We walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, I believe. And we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up.
Representative FORD - How could you tell this elevator was at six?
Mr. JARMAN - Because after we got around to the other side we looked up.
Representative FORD - You could see it was on six?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes.
Representative FORD - This was about what time?
Mr. JARMAN - That was about 12:25 or 12:28.
Representative FORD - You got off the fifth floor?
Mr. JARMAN - Yes, sir.
Rowland's timing matches
His observations were confirmed on the 22/11/1963
Mr. BELIN - Did anyone say they had seen anything--such as a rifle?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes; later on. A few minutes after that--I had taken this girl to one of our criminal investigators---and was talking to some other people. I talked to a young couple and the boy said he saw two men on the uh--sixth floor of the Book Depository Building over there; one of them had a rifle with the telescopic sight on it--but he thought they were Secret Service agents on guard and didn't report it. This was about--uh---oh, he said, 15 minutes before the motorcade ever arrived.
Mr. BELIN - Do you remember if that boy's name would have been Arnold Rowland---(spelling) R-o-w-l-a-n-d?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - Does that sound like it?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes; it sounds like the name---yes.
Mr. BELIN - His wife might be Barbara Rowland?
Mr. CRAIG - Yes; I believe her name was Barbara.